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Exactly; I've now finished my guard army (was 3K now down to about 2K) after making a couple of final purchases, but I've avoided the temptation to expand it further or to start any new armies (and I've been tempted by Dark Angels, Grey Knights and Eldar). I won't even be buying the new books (7th Ed BRB or 6th Ed Codex) unless I really have to, but since 40K is no longer my go-to pick-up game I can probably avoid it entirely.
So in the last 2 years GW has seen maybe £100 out of me, rather than the £100/month that now goes elsewhere.
Kilkrazy wrote: You are part of the reason why sales dropped 8% last year.
Really? Is that aimed at Herzlos? Me? I don't see now smiley so not sure if serious or not. Yes that is what something Kirby would say, blame the customers.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/12 20:58:45
Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.
Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?
Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".
Kilkrazy wrote: You are part of the reason why sales dropped 8% last year.
Really? Is that aimed at Herzlos? Me? I don't see now smiley so not sure if serious or not. Yes that is what something Kirby would say, blame the customers.
I am serious. I too am part of the reason, since I tailed off my 40K spending as the 5th edition Tyranids started to become expensive, and stopped entirely when codexes doubled in price.
Everyone who a few years ago was happily buying GW stuff and has cut or dropped it due to price/benefit dissatisfaction has contributed to the reduction in sales.
Guilty here as well. I cannot reward unreasonably high prices and product-limiting, community-killing business practices and policies with further patronage. I soooo want SH, but with how they handled it last time and what they are doing now, I still can't bring myself to spend ducats on it.
WGF Shock Troopers ~$20 US per 18 (and on sale at times for even less!), GW Cadians $29 US per 10, and you NEED at least 20 for a platoon at arguably HALF-strength.
C'mon it's just plastic, sell more at a lower price and reap more profit.
In this climate, GW evidently feels that customers are just otiose, as are demographic research, customer retention, and market analysis.
Tom Kirby, you are an incompetent fool, and you will only ever have incompetence serve you as long as you are there in any capacity whether as CEO or Chairman, retire and get out of the frelling way!
Too strong perhaps?
Armies: Space Marines, IG, Tyranids, Eldar, Necrons, Orks, Dark Eldar.
I am the best 40k player in my town, I always win! Of course, I am the only player of 40k in my town.
I'm part of the reason as well. When I sold off my SOB army, I just made it cheaper and easier for someone to buy SOB without giving GW a dime.
(changing the subject a bit.)
I think there are enough die hard fans to keep GW afloat for a while. It'll limp on like the crumbling Roman Empire. It's glory and influence will far outweigh its actual power. It's financials are worse than many people realize, but perhaps it'll fall into a kind of desperate equilibrium with its remaining hard core fans.
Also, check out my history blog: Minimum Wage Historian, a fun place to check out history that often falls between the couch cushions.
I'm proud to be part of the reason. They haven't gotten a dime from me since 7th...though I do need some devlan mud wash. I haven't found a good substitute for that yet.
While they are singing "what a friend we have in the greater good", we are bringing the pain!
Musashi363 wrote: I'm proud to be part of the reason. They haven't gotten a dime from me since 7th...though I do need some devlan mud wash. I haven't found a good substitute for that yet.
GW doesn't make it's paints, it's just a pass through. So theoretically, if they didn't exist, the paints would go through a different company (I'd bet).
Musashi363 wrote: I'm proud to be part of the reason. They haven't gotten a dime from me since 7th...though I do need some devlan mud wash. I haven't found a good substitute for that yet.
GW doesn't make it's paints, it's just a pass through. So theoretically, if they didn't exist, the paints would go through a different company (I'd bet).
Maybe then they wouldn't rip you off by charging more than everyone else for less than everyone else. I like the GW paints but buying them feels like being robbed.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/13 17:17:38
Musashi363 wrote: I'm proud to be part of the reason. They haven't gotten a dime from me since 7th...though I do need some devlan mud wash. I haven't found a good substitute for that yet.
Army Painter 'Strong tone' is exactly the same, 'Dark tone' is the same as Badab black.
Musashi363 wrote: I'm proud to be part of the reason. They haven't gotten a dime from me since 7th...though I do need some devlan mud wash. I haven't found a good substitute for that yet.
Army Painter 'Strong tone' is exactly the same, 'Dark tone' is the same as Badab black.
Thank you!
I have needed some miracle mud for so long!
Sir Isaac Newton may be the deadliest son-of-a-bitch in space, but John von Neumann is the logistics officer that eats your problems and turns them into kit.
Buypainted have nice explanation of GWs behavior to gamers.
Again I find myself torn between two sides I consider wrong. This game should not be made to be competitive. Or, more precisely, should be made more about narrative and fluff than from the perspective of a "game based on the universe". For example, how about we grow out of the d6 system, allowing more room for the broad scope of thing in this game? For example, allowing more than 2 inches of space between models in units that would naturally spread out in battle. Or how about making a Space Marine army consist of less marines that are more durable and deadly, or maybe make plaguebearers immune to poison, or relegate deep strike mishaps to armies that that actually happens to, roll to penetrate armor and THEN roll for toughness (why is it backwards in the first place?), and the list goes on. Who wouldn't like to see all this happen?
But when you extend that to the models, that sort of thing would be less competitive---at least right away. No matter which way you slice it the main demographic of this hobby is people playing to participate in a game, more focused on tactics and list building then a rich, characterful army. (Not to say you aren't interested in both) Plus Games Workshop would sooner make new units than updating models. If what they told Mr. Buypainted was true, then they'd be updating more than just their very worst unit per release. If there was a single element of their strategy that I could change it'd be that. The rules change, the models don't. I'd much rather have plastic noise marines than a maulerfiend/forgefiend kit. Most people wouldn't. You know why? Because Maulerfiend/Forgefiend are bigger, more powerful, and are "something I'd actually use". Something with good stats. Sell the hobby to the devil, why don't you...
You can, it's called Tomorrows War by Ambush Alley Games. Give it a try, its kinda neat having 10 marines that can mow down the op-for likes in the books, but using tactics you can still take them down. I Highly recommend it.
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Kilkrazy wrote: You are part of the reason why sales dropped 8% last year.
For me it's been longer then last year. I kinda gave up in 5th edition after I was 'let go' by the local GW store for 'restructuring'. I had a tau army I had in the store but the SOB's have been my 40k love since 2nd edition. I wanted to put my sisters army on display in the store but was told no b/c we don't carry most of the range by the manager. Then I was canned along with the other two full times on dec 1st. Merry fething xmas!.
I started playing 40k in the Rogue Trader era, I also played Space Marine and Adeptus Titanicus (which soon became epic 2nd edition) so I have been around for a while. I will never give that company a direct dime again. Anything 40k I have wanted I have bought second hand as I would rather help someone else out then give GW a dime.
My only conflict is forgeworld.... I love the models, I love the 30k game. I love the setting, I love the lore.....so while I do try to buy FW second hand...sometimes I have to lie to myself and say FW isn't part of GW norm....meh whatever helps you sleep at night I guess.
This company has been a cluster-feth for a long while now, and its kinda funny to watch it slowly dig its own grave /popcorn.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/15 22:49:35
I haven't played it yet, but I do play Force on Force, which is from the same designer and company (Ambush Alley Games).
There are so many great, and really intuitive things about his rules that make them just amazing. One of my favorite things is that real-life tactics are able to be utilized on the tabletop, things such as: breaking your squad in to two-man fire teams, true bounding overwatch, interrupt fire (defensive overwatch), and the way things are abstracted for speed of play while not ruining the feel of what is represented. Basically things work like they should inside the mechanics and make sense without a lot of fancy-pants extra rules.
Armies: Space Marines, IG, Tyranids, Eldar, Necrons, Orks, Dark Eldar.
I am the best 40k player in my town, I always win! Of course, I am the only player of 40k in my town.
Kilkrazy wrote: You are part of the reason why sales dropped 8% last year.
Typical Dakka blame the victim?
GW are the reason their sales dropped.
No according GW the HHHobby is buying GW mini's, if you are not doing that then it is the Consumers fault as GW know what we want, and we should buy it!
I am part of the decline also i have spent a lot of my money on the dreaded 3rd party stuff, and the only thing i bought the last few years are the Horus Heresy books, Space Hulk will be my first big GW purchase in years if my supplier can get get one.
Shame on you for spending money on such GW knock-offs as Infinity or Warmachine. Everybody knows GW was the first company to produce scale miniatures and develop a rule set for playing out battles with them. All the others are idea thieves, and the only reason they're allowed to operate is because the law is inadequate. If you buy other miniatures, you aren't a true wargamer.
Same goes for Lego, which are the only legit building brick manufacturer, and Bandai, which are the only company allowed to make plastic mecha kits.
If they streamlined the rules to not encourage huge battles with lots of expensive things, I'd love to play 40k again. But not spending hundreds on a small force.
Allen Merret said, under oath, in a bloody courtroom: "Games Day is a place where our fans can participate in their favourite part of the Hobby, buying things from Games Workshop."
Wow, so that is what GW management thinks of us their customers? We are sheep or drones eh?
Thank you for sharing that quote.
He's not far off the truth tho. How many times has the "I hate GW, I'm just gonna buy the things I need to finish my army then I'm done with them" line been trotted out? Hate the company, so throw more money their way and keep playing their game, which they update so people have to keep throwing money at them and griping whilst doing it.
People love buying new minis!
Ok, people do love buying new minis. It's true. For a lot of us, the hobby is dreaming about painting minis (we all own way more than we can ever possibly paint) and so we engage in the buying part.
However, I disagree with people who think that the complaints about GW don't lead to lost customers. Sure, I know people who complain about GW and still throw tons of money at them. I also know a lot more people who don't like GW, and started playing Warmachine and Malifaux instead.
Some of them don't buy minis at all anymore. And I know some people who might have started playing GW games, but heard all of the complaints, and picked up different games instead.
I actually know a lot of people who play miniatures games, but didn't start with a GW game.
I think GW should be paying attention to this. And I wish their official statements would make them sound like they understood their culture and cared about their customers. I think that'd change a lot.
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WayneTheGame wrote: If they streamlined the rules to not encourage huge battles with lots of expensive things, I'd love to play 40k again. But not spending hundreds on a small force.
Man, you've got to spend $140 around here just to get the rules you'd need to proxy a force (rulebook+codex). I don't know of any other tabletop game company with a buy in like that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/16 15:29:48
WayneTheGame wrote: If they streamlined the rules to not encourage huge battles with lots of expensive things, I'd love to play 40k again. But not spending hundreds on a small force.
Man, you've got to spend $140 around here just to get the rules you'd need to proxy a force (rulebook+codex). I don't know of any other tabletop game company with a buy in like that.
That's my point. No other wargame has as much of an initial startup cost as 40k. For $ 140 I would expect to get a starting army, not the rules required to play before I buy a single model.
I think GW should be paying attention to this. And I wish their official statements would make them sound like they understood their culture and cared about their customers. I think that'd change a lot.
Another reason why I don't buy much GW anymore and my money that would have gone to GW has gone on to other companies now. Why? As you said, I feel GW doesn't care about me as a customer. Why would I want to give my money to a company who I feel doesn't want me. Customer Service is great, but then I see GW actions towards others and then Kirby's statements, I really believe GW management doesn't respect their customers at all.
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Yonan wrote: There has been some misinterpretation of KKs comment I think ; p
Well, he didn't put a smiley face on it, and it sounds something like Kirby would say. I even asked if it was a joke and he was serious. What misinterpretation is there? Yes he really means we are at fault. I think I know what he means though. It's our fault that we don't buy. The thing is, why are we not buying? Because we are not buying can be blamed back to GW.
Yes yes, it's our fault, but it's GW fault because it's our fault. Still I wished he didn't say it like that. I take it more of it's our fault and GW is not to blame.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/16 16:11:20
Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.
Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?
Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".
The misinterpretation is the malice behind it - there was none. Yes, people choosing to not buy GW products is why their sales are down which is great. But that's not a bad thing, and yeah the reason people are choosing to not buy GW products is because of GWs actions - which is why it's great.
I don't usually post in these sorts of threads but I too have stopped buying new GW stuff. Thinking back on it, it has been several years since I spent actual money on anything that went to GW. I have traded for what i have now and I have no interest in spending what is required to fill out what I lack. The latest Fantasy products have really piqued my interest but their price completely stops me from getting them (End Times and Nagash & friends) when in years past I would have gotten them all. I can't believe that a modern company would act like they are and after so many years of watching them I realize that they are not a modern company at all. They want profit made the old way and are vehemently opposed to updating their methods. At this point I believe it is only a matter of time before they are bought or shuttered completely.
On a side note, the title of this thread makes me think of this.
And after the report, those lines now sound like something Kirby would actually say.
"The 75mm gun is firing. The 37mm gun is firing, but is traversed round the wrong way. The Browning is jammed. I am saying "Driver, advance." and the driver, who can't hear me, is reversing. And as I look over the top of the turret and see twelve enemy tanks fifty yards away, someone hands me a cheese sandwich."
