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 Desubot wrote:
Personally i really dont want to mess with bolter changes since its an extremely contested subject.

I dont think Marines should naturally have two attacks each. since they are getting a better chance to hit instead of wildly swinging there arms around.
as well they are going faster at intiative 4.

So they are stronger, faster, tougher, and hit better than a normal human.

I think attacks is just a measure of ferocity/endurance in close quarters. I think marines endurance is basically unlimited and ferocity should be much higher than your average human - they should have more attacks IMO. How can one be decent in CC with 1 attack?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Shred on bolters is not going to be too much. Rerolls to wound yes, but it's still just 1/2 S4 shots. You're not going to kill much with it.

I think we can all agree that it is strong - but blade-storm is better - does bladestorm break the game? Kind of...but since bladestorm exists who cares? I'll get shred on bolters and I pay more for it...whats the big deal?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Personally i really dont want to mess with bolter changes since its an extremely contested subject.

I dont think Marines should naturally have two attacks each. since they are getting a better chance to hit instead of wildly swinging there arms around.
as well they are going faster at intiative 4.

So they are stronger, faster, tougher, and hit better than a normal human.

I think attacks is just a measure of ferocity/endurance in close quarters. I think marines endurance is basically unlimited and ferocity should be much higher than your average human - they should have more attacks IMO. How can one be decent in CC with 1 attack?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Shred on bolters is not going to be too much. Rerolls to wound yes, but it's still just 1/2 S4 shots. You're not going to kill much with it.

I think we can all agree that it is strong - but blade-storm is better - does bladestorm break the game? Kind of...but since bladestorm exists who cares? I'll get shred on bolters and I pay more for it...whats the big deal?

Ferocity and Endurance would be represented by the attacks ST and the ability to continue fighting (T)

If you end up doubling there attacks they would end up with WAY to many dice

especially if they are charging. even more if they are actually kitted for combat.

+ Things like chaplains.

Here's how Id do it:
First weapon changes: Bolters gain shred. chainswords become S+1 shred.
Tactical, devastator, and assault Marines would be
Bs4 Ws4 T4 S4 W2 I4 A2 Ld8 Sv3+ for 28ppm with their standard Wargear options. So 140pts for a 5 man squad.

Bikes:
Bs4 Ws4 T5 S4 W2 I4 A2 Ld8 Sv3 for 41ppm. So 123pts for 3.

Sternguard become:
Bs5 Ws4 T4 S4 W2 I4 A3 Ld9 Sv3+ for 38ppm same Wargear and options. So 190pts for 5.
Vanguard become:
Bs4 Ws5 T4 S4 W2 I4 A3 Ld9 Sv3+ 34ppm same Wargear and options. So 170pts for 5.

Terminators and assault terminators:
Bs4 Ws4 S4 T5 W2 I4 A3 Ld10 Sv2+5+ for 50ppm and 55ppm respectively.Add in ignores unwieldy. Same Wargear and options. Brings them 250pts or 275pts for min sized squad.

Centurions:
Bs4 Ws4 S6 T6 W2 I4 A2 ld10 Sv2+ for 75ppm or 225 for 3 without upgrades.

Hqs: All hqs gain +1 w and A and increase in cost by 15pts.

The problem with all this 2 wounds stuff is that weapons which wiped them off the board before will still continue to do so.

A S8 AP2 pie plate from a Riptide doesn't care that each marine has two wounds (unless you also bump them to T5). All that this making Marines more "elite" and representative of their fluff will do is make them even less powerful and less representative of their fluff as they still die just as fast to the stuff which slaughters them now but now there are less models to kill.

You need to either increase the cost of things which are overperforming for their points or nerf those things. Not shift the whole centre in order to include those outliers.

At 26 ppm, they also have extremely low damage output for their price.

 Desubot wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Personally i really dont want to mess with bolter changes since its an extremely contested subject.

I dont think Marines should naturally have two attacks each. since they are getting a better chance to hit instead of wildly swinging there arms around.
as well they are going faster at intiative 4.

So they are stronger, faster, tougher, and hit better than a normal human.

I think attacks is just a measure of ferocity/endurance in close quarters. I think marines endurance is basically unlimited and ferocity should be much higher than your average human - they should have more attacks IMO. How can one be decent in CC with 1 attack?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Shred on bolters is not going to be too much. Rerolls to wound yes, but it's still just 1/2 S4 shots. You're not going to kill much with it.

I think we can all agree that it is strong - but blade-storm is better - does bladestorm break the game? Kind of...but since bladestorm exists who cares? I'll get shred on bolters and I pay more for it...whats the big deal?

Ferocity and Endurance would be represented by the attacks ST and the ability to continue fighting (T)

If you end up doubling there attacks they would end up with WAY to many dice

especially if they are charging. even more if they are actually kitted for combat.

+ Things like chaplains.

How is it way to many dice? at around 28 ppm(the range we are suggesting) they would actually have less attacks per point on the charge than current 14 ppm marines. It would still be a technical downgrade in overall CC power. It would just be harder to whittle down power - more power in challanges - with the ability to get more power into smaller spaces. I'm not even sure the marines we are suggesting would over work better than 14 point marines - they would feel more like marines though - which is what I'm aiming for.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
The problem with all this 2 wounds stuff is that weapons which wiped them off the board before will still continue to do so.

A S8 AP2 pie plate from a Riptide doesn't care that each marine has two wounds (unless you also bump them to T5). All that this making Marines more "elite" and representative of their fluff will do is make them even less powerful and less representative of their fluff as they still die just as fast to the stuff which slaughters them now but now there are less models to kill.

You need to either increase the cost of things which are overperforming for their points or nerf those things. Not shift the whole centre in order to include those outliers.

I dont think much should ever surviving getting microwaved, or shot with an artillery shell, or smashed completely in with a power fist.

It also increases the value of taking those weapons which is always a bonus instead of people just mass spamming ST6.

Edit: @ Xeno i guess you are right. at double the points for basically double the effectiveness at the same piece count but lowers the shooting unless we are completely changing bolters.

 Desubot wrote:

 Aszubaruzah Surn wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
I think 2 wounds would be better for a slight points increase. but not much else needed otherwise you are literally running around with captain level dudes.

Well, the point is to make Space Marines slightly above the level of Imperial Guard heroes. These are guys that survived extremely harsh trials and were subjected to lots of training and surgically modified to withstand a lot of punishment.

Two wounds is pretty significant

Its like getting half your torso shot clean off and still being able to move and function.

I don't think it represents anything as drastic as getting more wounds is something that generic heroic characters, even unaugmented human ones get.

To me a perfect formula for a Marine is:
Take an imperial guard company commander and then slap on the bonuses that SM gets over an ordinary imperial guard troop. This way one gets a pretty accurate game representation of an augmented brutally selected and trained super-soldier.

 Aszubaruzah Surn wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Aszubaruzah Surn wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
I think 2 wounds would be better for a slight points increase. but not much else needed otherwise you are literally running around with captain level dudes.

Well, the point is to make Space Marines slightly above the level of Imperial Guard heroes. These are guys that survived extremely harsh trials and were subjected to lots of training and surgically modified to withstand a lot of punishment.

Two wounds is pretty significant

Its like getting half your torso shot clean off and still being able to move and function.

I don't think it represents anything as drastic as getting more wounds is something that generic heroic characters, even unaugmented human ones get.

I always though a Wound would be the threshold of some one being able to continue fighting after being wounded.

I guess being shot into two pieces is a litter drastic

But a normal human getting shot would probably at least be incapacitated from the shock and blood loss while a marine would probably be ok for the time being.

 Desubot wrote:
I always though a Wound would be the threshold of some one being able to continue fighting after being wounded.

I guess being shot into two pieces is a litter drastic

But a normal human getting shot would probably at least be incapacitated from the shock and blood loss while a marine would probably be ok for the time being.

From what I understand the modifications make them both harder to get wounded (toughness) and much more likely to survive and keep fighting after getting wounded (wounds). Endurance to wounds that is heroic in humans is default in marines.

 Desubot wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
The problem with all this 2 wounds stuff is that weapons which wiped them off the board before will still continue to do so.

A S8 AP2 pie plate from a Riptide doesn't care that each marine has two wounds (unless you also bump them to T5). All that this making Marines more "elite" and representative of their fluff will do is make them even less powerful and less representative of their fluff as they still die just as fast to the stuff which slaughters them now but now there are less models to kill.

You need to either increase the cost of things which are overperforming for their points or nerf those things. Not shift the whole centre in order to include those outliers.

I dont think much should ever surviving getting microwaved, or shot with an artillery shell, or smashed completely in with a power fist.

It also increases the value of taking those weapons which is always a bonus instead of people just mass spamming ST6.

Edit: @ Xeno i guess you are right. at double the points for basically double the effectiveness at the same piece count but lowers the shooting unless we are completely changing bolters.

Except most Tau players are already taking at least one Riptide. 2 wound marines just makes the Ion Riptide, which is already too effective for its cost in terms of its durability and firepower, even better against marines. That's not making them change their list, it's just making their list more effective, with no downside.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
The problem with all this 2 wounds stuff is that weapons which wiped them off the board before will still continue to do so.

A S8 AP2 pie plate from a Riptide doesn't care that each marine has two wounds (unless you also bump them to T5). All that this making Marines more "elite" and representative of their fluff will do is make them even less powerful and less representative of their fluff as they still die just as fast to the stuff which slaughters them now but now there are less models to kill.

You need to either increase the cost of things which are overperforming for their points or nerf those things. Not shift the whole centre in order to include those outliers.

I dont think much should ever surviving getting microwaved, or shot with an artillery shell, or smashed completely in with a power fist.

It also increases the value of taking those weapons which is always a bonus instead of people just mass spamming ST6.

Edit: @ Xeno i guess you are right. at double the points for basically double the effectiveness at the same piece count but lowers the shooting unless we are completely changing bolters.

Except most Tau players are already taking at least one Riptide. 2 wound marines just makes the Ion Riptide, which is already too effective for its cost in terms of its durability and firepower, even better against marines. That's not making them change their list, it's just making their list more effective, with no downside.

Then why dont we just nerf the riptide already.

 Desubot wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
The problem with all this 2 wounds stuff is that weapons which wiped them off the board before will still continue to do so.

A S8 AP2 pie plate from a Riptide doesn't care that each marine has two wounds (unless you also bump them to T5). All that this making Marines more "elite" and representative of their fluff will do is make them even less powerful and less representative of their fluff as they still die just as fast to the stuff which slaughters them now but now there are less models to kill.

You need to either increase the cost of things which are overperforming for their points or nerf those things. Not shift the whole centre in order to include those outliers.

I dont think much should ever surviving getting microwaved, or shot with an artillery shell, or smashed completely in with a power fist.

It also increases the value of taking those weapons which is always a bonus instead of people just mass spamming ST6.

Edit: @ Xeno i guess you are right. at double the points for basically double the effectiveness at the same piece count but lowers the shooting unless we are completely changing bolters.

Except most Tau players are already taking at least one Riptide. 2 wound marines just makes the Ion Riptide, which is already too effective for its cost in terms of its durability and firepower, even better against marines. That's not making them change their list, it's just making their list more effective, with no downside.

Then why dont we just nerf the riptide already.

You can't nerf it whilst Wraithknights, Dreadknights and Imperial Knights are still around

Make the Riptide's gun S7 ap2 instead of S8?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wraith knights need a nerf agreed. And the amount of S8+ and ap2 weapons should probably go down around all codexes.

feth no. No one is nerfing anything with that crazy as gak Eldar codex around. If anything the majority of factions need buffs to compete with that codex. Only Necrons need the smallest of buffs because they're in a pretty good spot.

The Eldar codex is what really messed up everything.

SGTPozy wrote:


Then why dont we just nerf the riptide already.

You can't nerf it whilst Wraithknights, Dreadknights and Imperial Knights are still around

 Gamgee wrote:
feth no. No one is nerfing anything with that crazy as gak Eldar codex around. If anything the majority of factions need buffs to compete with that codex. Only Necrons need the smallest of buffs because they're in a pretty good spot.

The Eldar codex is what really messed up everything.

Um... what?

Necrons are top tier.

Eldar as a whole need alot of nerfing so that shouldn't be an issue. Why do you think I would propose reducing everyone's overall powe except Eldar.

As far as I can tell making Space Marines elite isn't for competitive reasons but rather to fit their fluff better.

Do you want to know my opinion of how to fix Eldar?
Completely get rid of SD(every codex). Seriously. Replace every instance of it with S10 ap1 armorbane.
1 in 3 heavy weapons for jetbikes. Both of the heavy weapons become 15pts a piece.
Wraith Knight becomes +90 pts more expensive.

The base, or average statline for combatants is human. Basic IG. Space Marines are considered elite. Twenty-five years of power creep has made people believe that SMs are the baseline. Long ago in the days of Rogue Trader all 4s was considered huge.

GW really needs to reevaluate the stats of ALL armys. Elite guardsmen should be able to get a lot of 4s in their stats. SMs should all be 5s. Eldar guardians shoul have mostly 4s and a few 3s. In this way there'd be a better & finer gradiation between units. As it stands currently the upper reaches of the unit stat lines remain empty. Highlighting the highest, nigh unreachable stratosphere of power but leaving the lower, more average beings in a muddle.

Can we make Tau fit the Fire Warrior novel please? I really want Fire Warriors to be as epic as in there

SGTPozy wrote:
Can we make Tau fit the Fire Warrior novel please? I really want Fire Warriors to be as epic as in there

can you please make a different thread?

 Red Marine wrote:
The base, or average statline for combatants is human. Basic IG. Space Marines are considered elite. Twenty-five years of power creep has made people believe that SMs are the baseline. Long ago in the days of Rogue Trader all 4s was considered huge.

GW really needs to reevaluate the stats of ALL armys. Elite guardsmen should be able to get a lot of 4s in their stats. SMs should all be 5s. Eldar guardians shoul have mostly 4s and a few 3s. In this way there'd be a better & finer gradiation between units. As it stands currently the upper reaches of the unit stat lines remain empty. Highlighting the highest, nigh unreachable stratosphere of power but leaving the lower, more average beings in a muddle.

I agree with the notion that the current system does a pretty poor job when it comes to make use of the profile attributes. But it's also true that the D6 system is simply not dynamic enough to do much more.

On the other hand, the biggest issue with space marines is that they're virtually the same as in Rogue Trader (between RT and 7th they got +1 toughness, +1 armor save and ATSKNF). In Rogue Trader they were depicted as elite human soldiers. In the current fluff they tend to be presented as demigods, each one of them a walking tank more than able to decimate entire enemy squads all by himself. Which is ridiculous.

As I see it, there is nothing really wrong with marines in the tabletop rules. Perhaps some minor adjustments could be made. Perhaps the problem doesn't really lie with the marines but with the power creep other units in the game have profited from. Anyway, the problem lies with the fluff. The fluff says godly walking tank, the rules say elite human soldier in power armor. I'd rather go with the marines as they apear in the rules, it makes them look more sympathetic in my eyes and less silly as a whole concept.

Seriously, I find it easier to stick to the game rules (as dire as their current state is) and dismiss most of the fluff as very obvious and silly imperial propaganda. Space Marines? Elite soldiers with the best gear the Imperium can afford (or almost), who excel in highly specialized tasks and love to take the glory and the bright spot at the end of the day. Although the wars are actually won or lost by the IG most of the time.

We can obviously conclude that the tabletop game is not accurate, otherwise the Astartes would be long extinct.

 Desubot wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
Can we make Tau fit the Fire Warrior novel please? I really want Fire Warriors to be as epic as in there

can you please make a different thread?

I don' think he's being serious, I think he's trying to make a point.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
Can we make Tau fit the Fire Warrior novel please? I really want Fire Warriors to be as epic as in there

can you please make a different thread?

I don' think he's being serious, I think he's trying to make a point.

I don't think it's a very good point. Your average Fire Warrior is not a chosen warrior of Khorne.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
Can we make Tau fit the Fire Warrior novel please? I really want Fire Warriors to be as epic as in there

can you please make a different thread?

I don' think he's being serious, I think he's trying to make a point.

I dont know IIRC a lot of his posts are pretty salty to Tau. or he is trying to be ironic. Le internet for ya. But still its not very on topic for a space marine thread.

 Ashiraya wrote:


I don't think it's a very good point. Your average Fire Warrior is not a chosen warrior of Khorne.

Actually...... The fire warrior video game has a thing with korn IIRC (or are you being ironic as well)

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Here's how Id do it:
First weapon changes: Bolters gain shred. chainswords become S+1 shred.
Tactical, devastator, and assault Marines would be
Bs4 Ws4 T4 S4 W2 I4 A2 Ld8 Sv3+ for 28ppm with their standard Wargear options. So 140pts for a 5 man squad.

Bikes:
Bs4 Ws4 T5 S4 W2 I4 A2 Ld8 Sv3 for 41ppm. So 123pts for 3.

Sternguard become:
Bs5 Ws4 T4 S4 W2 I4 A3 Ld9 Sv3+ for 38ppm same Wargear and options. So 190pts for 5.
Vanguard become:
Bs4 Ws5 T4 S4 W2 I4 A3 Ld9 Sv3+ 34ppm same Wargear and options. So 170pts for 5.

Terminators and assault terminators:
Bs4 Ws4 S4 T5 W2 I4 A3 Ld10 Sv2+5+ for 50ppm and 55ppm respectively.Add in ignores unwieldy. Same Wargear and options. Brings them 250pts or 275pts for min sized squad.

Centurions:
Bs4 Ws4 S6 T6 W2 I4 A2 ld10 Sv2+ for 75ppm or 225 for 3 without upgrades.

Hqs: All hqs gain +1 w and A and increase in cost by 15pts.

Dear god no. I mean I like some of the changes like chainswords actually doing something, but those point costs man...that's like deathwing levels of bad for what they get. +1a +1w and a shred weapon on the rank and file is not worth doubling their already-significant cost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I actually came up with a rule a long time ago in proposed rules about an astartes rule for both chaos and loyalists that, by incredible resilience, reflexes, or just plain luck, made them unable to be wounded on 2's, regardless of the strength of the weapon. After a bit of play testing, our group liked it, most saying it was either alright or even not enough of a buff, but it's extremely difficult to get any house rule tacked onto the game permanently. (Especially since I and a couple others play tourneys, and we certainly wouldn't want to get used to a house rule that doesn't exist at an event.)
There was a bit of resistance to the idea on dakka, but no one ever provided any play test info where it didn't work decently. \o.o/

 Ashiraya wrote:
We can obviously conclude that the tabletop game is not accurate, otherwise the Astartes would be long extinct.

Or the fluff is not accurate and they ARE extinct.

Martel732 wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
We can obviously conclude that the tabletop game is not accurate, otherwise the Astartes would be long extinct.

Or the fluff is not accurate and they ARE extinct.

Indeed in fact there are no tyranids orks or chaos either they are just a bunch of boogey men designed to scare the imperial populace into submission. Why not right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

niv-mizzet wrote:

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Here's how Id do it:
First weapon changes: Bolters gain shred. chainswords become S+1 shred.
Tactical, devastator, and assault Marines would be
Bs4 Ws4 T4 S4 W2 I4 A2 Ld8 Sv3+ for 28ppm with their standard Wargear options. So 140pts for a 5 man squad.

Bikes:
Bs4 Ws4 T5 S4 W2 I4 A2 Ld8 Sv3 for 41ppm. So 123pts for 3.

Sternguard become:
Bs5 Ws4 T4 S4 W2 I4 A3 Ld9 Sv3+ for 38ppm same Wargear and options. So 190pts for 5.
Vanguard become:
Bs4 Ws5 T4 S4 W2 I4 A3 Ld9 Sv3+ 34ppm same Wargear and options. So 170pts for 5.

Terminators and assault terminators:
Bs4 Ws4 S4 T5 W2 I4 A3 Ld10 Sv2+5+ for 50ppm and 55ppm respectively.Add in ignores unwieldy. Same Wargear and options. Brings them 250pts or 275pts for min sized squad.

Centurions:
Bs4 Ws4 S6 T6 W2 I4 A2 ld10 Sv2+ for 75ppm or 225 for 3 without upgrades.

Hqs: All hqs gain +1 w and A and increase in cost by 15pts.

Dear god no. I mean I like some of the changes like chainswords actually doing something, but those point costs man...that's like deathwing levels of bad for what they get. +1a +1w and a shred weapon on the rank and file is not worth doubling their already-significant cost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I actually came up with a rule a long time ago in proposed rules about an astartes rule for both chaos and loyalists that, by incredible resilience, reflexes, or just plain luck, made them unable to be wounded on 2's, regardless of the strength of the weapon. After a bit of play testing, our group liked it, most saying it was either alright or even not enough of a buff, but it's extremely difficult to get any house rule tacked onto the game permanently. (Especially since I and a couple others play tourneys, and we certainly wouldn't want to get used to a house rule that doesn't exist at an event.)
There was a bit of resistance to the idea on dakka, but no one ever provided any play test info where it didn't work decently. \o.o/

Come again? How would you price them then? That rule idea is interesting, I'll have to try it out.

The game really suffers from its lack of granularity.

This is because of the game's inability to decide if it wants to be a small game or a big game. If it wants to be a big game, you can just simplify it further - a Guardsman squad is one squad point, a Tactical Squad is ten squad points, and so on (maybe not that simple, but you know what I mean) and a D10 or even D20 system if it wants to be small.

Video games typically are so much better at portraying this.
For instance, Forbidden Lore:

A Tactical Space Marine has 990 hitpoints. He is heavily armoured (which means he takes ~30% less damage from small arms and other light attacks, although the armour is also contributing to his high HP), and his boltgun inflicts 75 points of damage with a successful hit. It is fired semi-automatically with a good accuracy.

An Imperial Guardsman has 50 hitpoints. He lacks the heavy armour, which means he is less resistant to incoming fire and doesn't contribute as much to his health. His lasgun inflicts 5 points of damage, and is also semi-automatic, with a bit less good accuracy.

In addition, the Space Marine has other benefits, such as resistance to knockdown effects, a special charge move, and far higher melee damage.

Doesn't sound balanced? Well, the Guardsman costs 16 Requisition, and the Tactical Marine costs 450!

The IG faction also has a lot of abilities and benefits to ease reinforcements whereas every dead Tactical Marine really hurts.

In comparison, Eldar also deal very high damage and are faster than Marines, but have very low health - they compensate with a passive evasion ability. CSM have very slightly lower health and deal very slightly lower ranged damage than Marines (presumably due to battered wargear) but deal a bit more melee damage. Orks are between IG and SM, though closer to the former. And so on.

That kind of balance, while fluffly, is not possible on the tabletop for hobby/$$$ reasons but also because of lack of granularity.

One can dream. :(

Or ya know, its not fluffly and its yet again another example of Marine wankery

The Marine npc in Only War vs the Guardsman NPC is probably a better match, with the guardsman using super-overcharged shots.