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Martel, just because BA have a hard time against IG does not mean that IG are fine. Neither does it mean that our opponents list tailor in order to win.

To tell the truth, the only Marine list I do not fear is one filled with Grav. Sadly Grav spam is somewhat rare at the moment (in my Meta at least)

 Selym wrote:
Martel, just because BA have a hard time against IG does not mean that IG are fine. Neither does it mean that our opponents list tailor in order to win.

I never said that. I was talking about da and below. IG psker heavy is really bad for ravenwing.


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 master of ordinance wrote:
To tell the truth, the only Marine list I do not fear is one filled with Grav. Sadly Grav spam is somewhat rare at the moment (in my Meta at least)

Sounds like you don't understsnd how to play against marines. There are so many bad marine lists.

Martel732 wrote:

 Selym wrote:
Martel, just because BA have a hard time against IG does not mean that IG are fine. Neither does it mean that our opponents list tailor in order to win.

I never said that. I was talking about da and below. IG psker heavy is really bad for ravenwing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 master of ordinance wrote:
To tell the truth, the only Marine list I do not fear is one filled with Grav. Sadly Grav spam is somewhat rare at the moment (in my Meta at least)

Sounds like you don't understsnd how to play against marines. There are so many bad marine lists.

Ive been considering throwing in a Librarius Conclave with tiggy to help shore up my weaknesses. If I was being really nasty and I rolled that phased geo power (with ignore LOS and cover) I could stick him with some medusas or even have him hit some tanks with it.

But then im not playing just my IG, and that is the problem

Something to consider. Are we talking about pure IG's? Because seems very few play any pure X armies these days...Maybe Tau and Eldar but even they often take allies.

4++ inv can be gained for example in number of ways besides IG psykers. Not even neccessarily with psyker.

(but similarly I don't expect to play pure BA either. Pure anything is more like fluke these days)

My cheapness makes me a fluke, I guess. I'm not even really willing to fork out the money to make red marines. There's about 400 bucks of models I would need: centurions, land speeder storms, stalkers, etc.

I am also going to try a Librarian Conclave out. I will give them White Scars chapter tactics and put them in a blob (Hit & Run + ATSKNF). Divination buffs are amazing for guard and, as mentioned above, the new Phase Form power plus something like a Medusa Siege Gun seems like a good idea.

I tried a Libby conclave by stabbng it with an EC, repeatedly. I decided it wasn't smashy enough for me.

About the morale and discipline of Cadian troops and other famous Astra Militarum regiments:

Some wrote that the Cadian regiments don't use Commissars very often - where is this information from?
I know it's stated that Cadian troops are very disciplined and don't flee that easily but would you really say there's a difference between them and other regiments? Aren't they all categorized as tough and respectable regiments which dare to face any opponent? Maybe there's a difference between how often Commissars are included but that doesn't mean there's a morale and discipline difference... It could be because of tradition for regiments to use specific units and weapons more than other regiments.

Chaospling wrote:
About the morale and discipline of Cadian troops and other famous Astra Militarum regiments:

Some wrote that the Cadian regiments don't use Commissars very often - where is this information from?
I know it's stated that Cadian troops are very disciplined and don't flee that easily but would you really say there's a difference between them and other regiments? Aren't they all categorized as tough and respectable regiments which dare to face any opponent? Maybe there's a difference between how often Commissars are included but that doesn't mean there's a morale and discipline difference... It could be because of tradition for regiments to use specific units and weapons more than other regiments.

As far as I know the only regiment out there that dosent "need" commissars for their intended purpose is Death Korps, because they are all incredibly suicidal and fearless. In the fluff DKoK actually need Commissars to PREVENT them from making suicidal charges. I could imagine this may be where the wires have crossed on that story, since both have insane backgrounds for how they build their regiments (i.e. Cadians can strip a lasgun before they can walk) or how DKoK are only given numbers for names and are essentially human necrons.

 generalchaos34 wrote:

Chaospling wrote:
About the morale and discipline of Cadian troops and other famous Astra Militarum regiments:

Some wrote that the Cadian regiments don't use Commissars very often - where is this information from?
I know it's stated that Cadian troops are very disciplined and don't flee that easily but would you really say there's a difference between them and other regiments? Aren't they all categorized as tough and respectable regiments which dare to face any opponent? Maybe there's a difference between how often Commissars are included but that doesn't mean there's a morale and discipline difference... It could be because of tradition for regiments to use specific units and weapons more than other regiments.

As far as I know the only regiment out there that dosent "need" commissars for their intended purpose is Death Korps, because they are all incredibly suicidal and fearless. In the fluff DKoK actually need Commissars to PREVENT them from making suicidal charges. I could imagine this may be where the wires have crossed on that story, since both have insane backgrounds for how they build their regiments (i.e. Cadians can strip a lasgun before they can walk) or how DKoK are only given numbers for names and are essentially human necrons.

The same sources for DKoK needing Commissars to prevent them from making suicidal charges are where the fluff comes from for Cadians not needing Commissars:
One-off sources in Black Library novels. DKoK got their blurb about Commissars from "Dead Men Walking" while Cadians got theirs from "Cadian Blood"--although "Cadian Blood" actually has a bit more meat to the fluff about their lack of Commissars.

Cadians don't generally have Commissars because they don't need them. The role that Commissars usually play(morale officer) isn't necessary when we're talking about guys who will hold the line in the face of daemons and still operate head and shoulders above the performance of other regiments. The other role that Commissars play(disciplinary officer/watchdog for a Psyker) is something that you could literally train any officer to do--and "Cadian Blood" has that being explicitly stated with Captain Thade having undergone training to recognize what would be an "Oh crap, something gribbly's about to happen" moment for the Regiment's Psyker.

The DKoK bit about Commissars was actually first in IA5. Im not sure if it is in the newest Vraks book since I do not have it on hand, but its not just from BL.

I do also recall a blurb from one of the 3e/4e books (eye of terror maybe?) About a Commissar being attaches to a cadian regiment and being very impressed by them during training. I'll have to look for it later.

Commissars also have roles beyond just shooting people for indiscipline, thats a relatively minor duty. They also act as tactical advisors, fill in for commands if officers arent present (dead/wounded/nobody experienced enough to lead an attack, etc), interface with ither regiments of vastly different cultural backgrounds and other elements of the Imperium such as the Inquisition or Administratum, etc. There's all sorts of reasons for Commissars to be attached to units which otherwise have excellent morale and discipline, for example like Storm Tropper/Scion units.

So maybe it's also part tradition that Cadian regiments don't have Commissars? Or did they anyway, because of reasons other than being a disciplinary officer?

Would you all say that Catachan Jungle Fighters and Valhallan Ice Warriors are more prone to flee than Cadians when facing more fearsome enemies?

Chaospling wrote:
So maybe it's also part tradition that Cadian regiments don't have Commissars? Or did they anyway, because of reasons other than being a disciplinary officer?

Would you all say that Catachan Jungle Fighters and Valhallan Ice Warriors are more prone to flee than Cadians when facing more fearsome enemies?

I do not think that this thread is the right place for this discussion.

BTW: Vostroyans are the best!

Chaospling wrote:
So maybe it's also part tradition that Cadian regiments don't have Commissars? Or did they anyway, because of reasons other than being a disciplinary officer?

Would you all say that Catachan Jungle Fighters and Valhallan Ice Warriors are more prone to flee than Cadians when facing more fearsome enemies?

Quite the opposite with Catachan, they may flee to save themselves to fight another day (everyone of them is a survivor) I believe that commissars in Catachan regiments are there to make sure that they are following orders, hence the frag rate of Commissars in their regiments is unusually high. As for ice warriors their commanders, such as chenkov, is very keen on using his men to clear minefields manually, which means walk until you explode, so they need commissars to put something even scarier than the enemy behind their lines in case someone decides not to be suicidally stupid.

Also for the previous comment all the loveliness about DKoK and commissars is in the new Vraks book, they just cut out some of fat from their fluff but kept most of the good tidbits.


And to get right back on track! One of my main problems with guard has been the issue of Leadership, the new decurion does help a little bit but I have been a commissar guy for a long time for both fluff and for reasons of flexibility (cant go to ground if you are fearless). Having to pass LD 7 on HWTs is awful, they should really have the option for a vox and a sgt. Banners help too with the 12in, Yarrick is great since he comes with that lovely warlord trait, but it would be nice to have some other mechanics in play.

Maybe I only roll high for leadership and low for armor saves?

Their Decurion definitely needs to have less of a buy-in. Isn't it nearly 1000 for the core?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Their Decurion definitely needs to have less of a buy-in. Isn't it nearly 1000 for the core?

You are not required to take the Core, just the command squad, you can technically take an entire army of just CCS and Masters of Ordnance if you wanted to. You just gain more bang for you buck with the decurion special rules with massed orders and lasguns if you take the Emps Shield core

I think IG more than some armies has the right tone to their play style. I think they just need fine tuning. There point costs are generally too high, but making them cheaper creates a problem in that a regular gaming table can already be too crowded. Making them individually better runs a foul of the "marines are the best" rule... so there is a limit to the sort of improvement they can enjoy.

They should have more in the way of formations and vehicle squadron rules that represent the more synergistic abilities of the IG type of force. Things like infantry should be able to help coordinate and direct artillery and airstrikes. Or multiple Hellhounds lighting up the exact same are creating a billowing smoke screen. More than other armies IG should be defined by formations, because its precisely those sorts of things that distinguish different regiments.

Unit wise, Rough Riders need to get better and if they don't some other unit needs to come along to fill their niche. M have Sterngard and Vanguard, and in the same vein we should have Storm Troopers and Roughriders. They should be elite horsemen as removed and elevated from the average guardsmen as Veterans or Storm troopers, instead of just being guardsmen with a spear on a horse.

We need a fighter and we should have a larger transport in the vein of the Gorgon but not superheavy.

 aka_mythos wrote:
I think IG more than some armies has the right tone to their play style. I think they just need fine tuning. There point costs are generally too high, but making them cheaper creates a problem in that a regular gaming table can already be too crowded. Making them individually better runs a foul of the "marines are the best" rule... so there is a limit to the sort of improvement they can enjoy.

They should have more in the way of formations and vehicle squadron rules that represent the more synergistic abilities of the IG type of force. Things like infantry should be able to help coordinate and direct artillery and airstrikes. Or multiple Hellhounds lighting up the exact same are creating a billowing smoke screen. More than other armies IG should be defined by formations, because its precisely those sorts of things that distinguish different regiments.

Unit wise, Rough Riders need to get better and if they don't some other unit needs to come along to fill their niche. M have Sterngard and Vanguard, and in the same vein we should have Storm Troopers and Roughriders. They should be elite horsemen as removed and elevated from the average guardsmen as Veterans or Storm troopers, instead of just being guardsmen with a spear on a horse.

We need a fighter and we should have a larger transport in the vein of the Gorgon but not superheavy.

Agreed! Having squadrons used to be the Guard thing, so now that everyone gets it we should get something nice to go with ours, since we are no longer special! I love the idea of the Leman Russ giving a 4+ cover save to models within 6in like in that Start Collecting! formation, and that can really be synergistic and have one unit supporting the other in a meaningful way.

also they need to just make RR the same as Death Riders from DKoK minus the DK rule and the 6+ fnp. That would go a looooooong way to making them viable

If by everyone you mean Space Marines (who then get super-special rules on top of it for no reason)

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
If by everyone you mean Space Marines (who then get super-special rules on top of it for no reason)

tau and eldar do stuff too if I recall (like combined fire prisms and better BS) the point is the one army that is known for its use of vehicle squadrons is the only one that gets no real benefit and all the downsides for using them

Oh, I didn't realise Eldar and Tau got new squadrons, too (beyond the squadrons they already had, Piranhas, Vypers and War Walkers). Apologies.

Honestly guard squadrons could be increased in size + bet a benefit for having 3+ (the later is the must at the very least), though I don't see GW doing it. Guard aren't Eldar, Tau or Space Marines after all .

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Oh, I didn't realise Eldar and Tau got new squadrons, too (beyond the squadrons they already had, Piranhas, Vypers and War Walkers). Apologies.

Honestly guard squadrons could be increased in size + bet a benefit for having 3+ (the later is the must at the very least), though I don't see GW doing it. Guard aren't Eldar, Tau or Space Marines after all .

Size increase is no solution. A gakky tank remains a gakky tank, no matter if you have 3 or 4 or 5 in one squadron. In addition the costs for a full squadron would be so high that nobody would play a full squadron and therefore would not get benefits.

Well, of course it should be coupled with making the tanks not gakky. It probably wouldn't be though, if it ever happened (because the SM vehicles didn't get better individually either, and if they didn't get buffed you can be as sure as hell that the Guard's won't)

I'm not saying a size increase would fix problems power-wise on its, but it'd certainly be fluffy and bring back some of the Guard's uniqueness with their vehicles. Also note I said the squadron bonuses should still only require a minimum of 3 vehicles (like the bonuses the other races get).

Matt.Kingsley wrote:Oh, I didn't realise Eldar and Tau got new squadrons, too (beyond the squadrons they already had, Piranhas, Vypers and War Walkers). Apologies.

Honestly guard squadrons could be increased in size + bet a benefit for having 3+ (the later is the must at the very least), though I don't see GW doing it. Guard aren't Eldar, Tau or Space Marines after all .

Rather than getting more I would like to see our tanks become a little cheaper, lose the damage spillover and be able to operate at an extended coherency instead of in a little huddle.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Their Decurion definitely needs to have less of a buy-in. Isn't it nearly 1000 for the core?

As others have said, you dont need the Infantry BUT fyou dont gain many bonuses if you leave them out. With the Infantry (and before any upgrades) the formation comes too 1080 points, or thereabouts. So, with over half your points spent on weak Infantry with no upgrades whatsoever, oh and several scout sentinels, you now have just under half your points for other units and upgrades

Matt.Kingsley wrote:If by everyone you mean Space Marines (who then get super-special rules on top of it for no reason)

We can but hope GW remember who the 'tank' army is when they update us

Kind of a random and different way of looking at things but I have had quite a bit of success with my Elysian drop troops in dealing with the top-tier armies as of late. Granted however this is more so due to the fact that my Army is somewhat of a gimmick and most top tier armies in my meta don't have enough to deal with it as effectively as they want. I run an Air Cavalry list which really helps with my mobility and surprisingly good durability as they need 6's to hit unless I run into the one Tau player at my store who spams Skyrays but he does that in every game he plays. It is definitely not an army for everyone though as most of my games consist of me maneuvering around the table before unleashing all of my infantry at once on Turn 3 or 4 in a massive strike to hopefully cripple their performance.

With standard guard the biggest issues I've run into that I feel needs fixing:

-Limited anti-monstrous creature capability, especially with hwts being so squishy it's hard to keep them alive even in cover nowadays. Thinking a Lemans Russ variant with a Grav Cannon type weapon for example would go a long way in helping.

-Leman Russes either get cheaper or get 4 hull points to justify their current points cost. Honestly the fact that Leman Russes are heavy tanks it would make perfect sense, also I think bringing in the FW variants like the Anihilator into the standard codex would help a lot, you can never have enough lascannons.

-Fix the internal balance of the Codex, this is a big one as currently there are only a few choices that are worth taking and others that no one even glances at. Infantry platoon need something more to make them seem more glamorous to pick over veterans for example. Fast attack wise the Vendetta is the clear winner, changing some things up with the hellhound variants (giving them all torrent for example) and points deduction would help. At this point either make Rough Riders the same stats as Death Riders (with Joust) or just get rid of them, there are no standard models for them and nobody takes them because of how awful they are. Just a few issues that I am using as examples for the internal balance issues.

 aka_mythos wrote:

Unit wise, Rough Riders need to get better and if they don't some other unit needs to come along to fill their niche. M have Sterngard and Vanguard, and in the same vein we should have Storm Troopers and Roughriders. They should be elite horsemen as removed and elevated from the average guardsmen as Veterans or Storm troopers, instead of just being guardsmen with a spear on a horse.

The majority of Rough Riders literally are just Guardsmen with a Spear on a Horse.


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 generalchaos34 wrote:

also they need to just make RR the same as Death Riders from DKoK minus the DK rule and the 6+ fnp. That would go a looooooong way to making them viable

NOTHING will ever make Rough Riders viable or acceptable. Trash them from the main codex. Them and Ratlings need to get the hell out of the book and make way for something different.


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 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Well, of course it should be coupled with making the tanks not gakky. It probably wouldn't be though, if it ever happened (because the SM vehicles didn't get better individually either, and if they didn't get buffed you can be as sure as hell that the Guard's won't)

I'm not saying a size increase would fix problems power-wise on its, but it'd certainly be fluffy and bring back some of the Guard's uniqueness with their vehicles. Also note I said the squadron bonuses should still only require a minimum of 3 vehicles (like the bonuses the other races get).

Guard having more tanks doesn't help anyone. Vehicles that aren't Skimmers or SHWs or don't have an Invulnerable save are garbage.

It'd also make more sense for Guard tanks not to get bigger unit sizes but instead to get taken as Platoons.

 vostroyan second born wrote:

Chaospling wrote:
So maybe it's also part tradition that Cadian regiments don't have Commissars? Or did they anyway, because of reasons other than being a disciplinary officer?

Would you all say that Catachan Jungle Fighters and Valhallan Ice Warriors are more prone to flee than Cadians when facing more fearsome enemies?

I do not think that this thread is the right place for this discussion.

BTW: Vostroyans are the best!

I know it's more of a lore-question but I'm following these threads because I'm writing a Cadian codex, and I want to stay close to the background - so while listening to the rule discussions ( and believing that Cadians aren't that different, besides being experts with lasguns) the Commissars were mentioned. There are of course rules and point-costs which need attention, but none of you think that the more elite regiments need a 1+ to their Leadership or something like that?

 Kanluwen wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:

Unit wise, Rough Riders need to get better and if they don't some other unit needs to come along to fill their niche. M have Sterngard and Vanguard, and in the same vein we should have Storm Troopers and Roughriders. They should be elite horsemen as removed and elevated from the average guardsmen as Veterans or Storm troopers, instead of just being guardsmen with a spear on a horse.

The majority of Rough Riders literally are just Guardsmen with a Spear on a Horses.

First concepts can evolve and for several editions they were described as elite riders and elite warriors from their respective home worlds. That atleast warrants being on par with Veterans and getting an option for carapace armour. Second like I said even if they aren't updated, or simply get removed, IG need something to fill the this niche. It's a call to action in an either or sorta way.

Some people want IG to be an analog for a modern military force, but conceptually they are bigger than that. You can ignore the units that don't fit that vision. The Imperium doesn't waste and it takes any and all types of forces from planets as tithes. So while it may have modern elements just like a WWI or Inter-war army, where the IG draw influences, there are strong colonial force presence mixed in that takes a variety of forms. There are presently only 5 units in the codex that convey this Imperium wide draw of forces; storm troopers, Ratlings, Ogryns, engineers and rough riders. To drop any of those would be one of the greatest fundamental shifts in an armies character short of CSM losing daemons. It maybe what you want but you have to atleast acknowledge the shift.

Engineers, Rough Riders, Rifles, they are all very good but first we need a balanced codex.