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Should Super Heavy Vehicles, Super Heavy Walkers and Gargantuan Creatures be allowed in non-apocalypse games of 40k?
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 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
You can think that, but the math shows that you are wrong. AV's just aren't high enough in general to make up for not having an armor save. And yes, that makes MC's OP in comparison. That's the very definition of OP. Something that is too good for its price.


Rhinos are weak, but at least they are cheap. Sometimes, free even. And have two firing points. This buys you one turn before the Tau kill you. It's better the be the MC and just never die in the first place.



So I should never take anything but MCs. I can't help but feel that is a little bit of flawed thinking.

And if the facts prove me wrong then I concede on the armour value argument, but I still don't think vehicles are obsolete and MCs are op because vehicles will always be used in 40k, no matter what and MCs aren't an auto win situation like everyone thinks they are.


They aren't autowin because some lists can make units of pseudo-MCs and kill them in melee. Or make invisible units with mass firepower like invisible grav star. Or use D-weapons, which actually CAN cause enough wounds to an MC to matter. Or shower them with enough attacks like Missilesides can. For lists that can't do any of these things, like BA and IG and Orks and CSM, we just lose. Don't forget MCs get AP2 for free. I've seen Riptides whip Death Company in CC because of this. Absolutely insane for the price.

Just because I have to use vehicles doesn't make them not garbage. It just makes my list suck. There's a reason that gladius lists get a ton of free vehicles and can still lose.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/05/30 18:24:49


 
   
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 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
You can think that, but the math shows that you are wrong. AV's just aren't high enough in general to make up for not having an armor save. And yes, that makes MC's OP in comparison. That's the very definition of OP. Something that is too good for its price.


Rhinos are weak, but at least they are cheap. Sometimes, free even. And have two firing points. This buys you one turn before the Tau kill you. It's better the be the MC and just never die in the first place.



So I should never take anything but MCs. I can't help but feel that is a little bit of flawed thinking.

And if the facts prove me wrong then I concede on the armour value argument, but I still don't think vehicles are obsolete and MCs are op because vehicles will always be used in 40k, no matter what and MCs aren't an auto win situation like everyone thinks they are.

They aren't AUTO-WIN. They are just far more effective compared to Vehicles.

Either make MCs on the same level as their equivalent vehicle, or buff vehicles to the equivalent MC level.


Yes. I agree, make the dreadknight a walker, make the stormsurge a walker, make the riptide a walker, etc. If it's got 2 legs and more metal than human make it a walker. HOWEVER, as of the current game state this won't happen and I'd rather deal with a MC/GMC than refuse every game that involves one because it's better than my land raider.

Once again, we march to war, for Victory or Death!

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I don't refuse. I just lose. A lot. And it gets tiring.
   
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I'm curious. Would removing the vehicle damage table make vehicles better enough to approach fairness?

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in ca
Possessed Khorne Marine Covered in Spikes





Martel732 wrote:
 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
You can think that, but the math shows that you are wrong. AV's just aren't high enough in general to make up for not having an armor save. And yes, that makes MC's OP in comparison. That's the very definition of OP. Something that is too good for its price.


Rhinos are weak, but at least they are cheap. Sometimes, free even. And have two firing points. This buys you one turn before the Tau kill you. It's better the be the MC and just never die in the first place.



So I should never take anything but MCs. I can't help but feel that is a little bit of flawed thinking.

And if the facts prove me wrong then I concede on the armour value argument, but I still don't think vehicles are obsolete and MCs are op because vehicles will always be used in 40k, no matter what and MCs aren't an auto win situation like everyone thinks they are.


They aren't autowin because some lists can make units of pseudo-MCs and kill them in melee. Or make invisible units with mass firepower like invisible grav star. Or use D-weapons, which actually CAN cause enough wounds to an MC to matter. Or shower them with enough attacks like Missilesides can. For lists that can't do any of these things, like BA and IG and Orks and CSM, we just lose. Don't forget MCs get AP2 for free. I've seen Riptides whip Death Company in CC because of this. Absolutely insane for the price.

Just because I have to use vehicles doesn't make them not garbage. It just makes my list suck. There's a reason that gladius lists get a ton of free vehicles and can still lose.
Do riptides not have the measly 1 attack ws 2 of the other tau? Then yes, that is ridiculous. And as I recall all of those except for orks can get knights, which can deal with mcs, and also get invisibility.

Once again, we march to war, for Victory or Death!

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pm713 wrote:
I'm curious. Would removing the vehicle damage table make vehicles better enough to approach fairness?


No, because everyone I know doesn't count on it anymore, not even with melta. If I want a 3 HP tank destroyed, I fire 5 melta at it to HP it out. It's only there now to make is so melta does D3 extra HPs to super heavies 33% of the time and THAT's only because we've got no other choice. My dreadnought is still gonna die to S7 chipping out guaranteed with no saves. Increasing HPs would help. A lot. Or making weapons worse than AP 3 incapable of inflicting glancing hits. Or something. Or making MCs similarly fragile. Take your pick.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
You can think that, but the math shows that you are wrong. AV's just aren't high enough in general to make up for not having an armor save. And yes, that makes MC's OP in comparison. That's the very definition of OP. Something that is too good for its price.


Rhinos are weak, but at least they are cheap. Sometimes, free even. And have two firing points. This buys you one turn before the Tau kill you. It's better the be the MC and just never die in the first place.



So I should never take anything but MCs. I can't help but feel that is a little bit of flawed thinking.

And if the facts prove me wrong then I concede on the armour value argument, but I still don't think vehicles are obsolete and MCs are op because vehicles will always be used in 40k, no matter what and MCs aren't an auto win situation like everyone thinks they are.


They aren't autowin because some lists can make units of pseudo-MCs and kill them in melee. Or make invisible units with mass firepower like invisible grav star. Or use D-weapons, which actually CAN cause enough wounds to an MC to matter. Or shower them with enough attacks like Missilesides can. For lists that can't do any of these things, like BA and IG and Orks and CSM, we just lose. Don't forget MCs get AP2 for free. I've seen Riptides whip Death Company in CC because of this. Absolutely insane for the price.

Just because I have to use vehicles doesn't make them not garbage. It just makes my list suck. There's a reason that gladius lists get a ton of free vehicles and can still lose.
Do riptides not have the measly 1 attack ws 2 of the other tau? Then yes, that is ridiculous. And as I recall all of those except for orks can get knights, which can deal with mcs, and also get invisibility.


They have 3 WS 2 attacks at S6 AP2. WS 2 hits almost everything on a 4+ which is the standard. It can also smash for S10, AP 2. I don't think IKs are that good. Side AV 12 is awful, for the exact reasons it is awful for regular vehicles. Look! S 6/7 shots! My IK is dead!

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/05/30 18:34:42


 
   
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pm713 wrote:
I'm curious. Would removing the vehicle damage table make vehicles better enough to approach fairness?


Probably, but it still wouldn't fix the "no armour saves" argument.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@martel then how can death co get "whipped" by the equivalent of a terminator on the charge? I think you just had some unusually bad rolls. Plus for the knight there is ion shields. If you're getting flanked on all sides you're doing something wrong.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/05/30 18:36:23


Once again, we march to war, for Victory or Death!

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If they wanted knights to be worth their points, they needed AV 14 front, AV 13 sides. As they are, they are crappy GMC-wannabes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
pm713 wrote:
I'm curious. Would removing the vehicle damage table make vehicles better enough to approach fairness?


Probably, but it still wouldn't fix the "no armour saves" argument.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@martel then how can death co get "whipped" by the equivalent of a terminator on the charge? I think you just had some unusually bad rolls.


You just don't get it. You don't get how insanely durable they are. I actually rolled ABOVE average. But the nova shield was up. He soaked the 9 normal wounds I did (3+ to hit, 5+ to wound isn't that good) with his 2+/5+++ and then I leaked one powerfist wound through out of 8 powerfist wounds. He comes back, hits three times, wounds three times and I make one FNP. I spent the rest of the fight not killing the thing. But it sure did keep my DC from fighting the rest of his list, as he murdered the rest of my list.

Riptide is actually a champ at CC because it never dies. You have to pray to win the combat by a single wound and then have it blow LD. Otherwise, it endures.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/05/30 18:40:16


 
   
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Martel732 wrote:I think he's saying it doesn't count because it's an outlier.


I'm saying that the Riptide isn't a SHV or a GMC. Even if GW made a rule saying: "no super-heavy vehicles or gargantuan monstrous creatures in non-apocalypse games," it would have absolutely no impact on player use of riptides.
   
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Traditio wrote:
Martel732 wrote:I think he's saying it doesn't count because it's an outlier.


I'm saying that the Riptide isn't a SHV or a GMC. Even if GW made a rule saying: "no super-heavy vehicles or gargantuan monstrous creatures in non-apocalypse games," it would have absolutely no impact on player use of riptides.


Why do you care about SHV? They aren't that good.
   
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Fixture of Dakka




Martel732 wrote:
Traditio wrote:
Martel732 wrote:I think he's saying it doesn't count because it's an outlier.


I'm saying that the Riptide isn't a SHV or a GMC. Even if GW made a rule saying: "no super-heavy vehicles or gargantuan monstrous creatures in non-apocalypse games," it would have absolutely no impact on player use of riptides.


Why do you care about SHV? They aren't that good.

They're stupid OP and cheesy and ruin the game.

Edit: I'm being sarcastic everyone.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/30 18:46:39


tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




pm713 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Traditio wrote:
Martel732 wrote:I think he's saying it doesn't count because it's an outlier.


I'm saying that the Riptide isn't a SHV or a GMC. Even if GW made a rule saying: "no super-heavy vehicles or gargantuan monstrous creatures in non-apocalypse games," it would have absolutely no impact on player use of riptides.


Why do you care about SHV? They aren't that good.

They're stupid OP and cheesy and ruin the game.


Hardly. IKs? Nope. IG supertanks? Hardly what I'd call super. Maybe the super heavy fliers.
   
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pm713 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Traditio wrote:
Martel732 wrote:I think he's saying it doesn't count because it's an outlier.


I'm saying that the Riptide isn't a SHV or a GMC. Even if GW made a rule saying: "no super-heavy vehicles or gargantuan monstrous creatures in non-apocalypse games," it would have absolutely no impact on player use of riptides.


Why do you care about SHV? They aren't that good.

They're stupid OP and cheesy and ruin the game.

Howso? A Malcador is not OP, cheesy, and most certainly doesn't ruin the game.


They/them

 
   
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Martel732 wrote:
If they wanted knights to be worth their points, they needed AV 14 front, AV 13 sides. As they are, they are crappy GMC-wannabes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
pm713 wrote:
I'm curious. Would removing the vehicle damage table make vehicles better enough to approach fairness?


Probably, but it still wouldn't fix the "no armour saves" argument.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@martel then how can death co get "whipped" by the equivalent of a terminator on the charge? I think you just had some unusually bad rolls.


You just don't get it. You don't get how insanely durable they are. I actually rolled ABOVE average. But the nova shield was up. He soaked the 9 normal wounds I did (3+ to hit, 5+ to wound isn't that good) with his 2+/5+++ and then I leaked one powerfist wound through out of 8 powerfist wounds. He comes back, hits three times, wounds three times and I make one FNP. I spent the rest of the fight not killing the thing. But it sure did keep my DC from fighting the rest of his list, as he murdered the rest of my list.

Riptide is actually a champ at CC because it never dies. You have to pray to win the combat by a single wound and then have it blow LD. Otherwise, it endures.


Well you could have pointed out he had his 3+ inv, I thought a couple fists could make it lose combat, and like you said, wiff leadership.

Once again, we march to war, for Victory or Death!

Never wake yourself at night, unless you are spying on your enemy or looking for a place to relieve yourself. - The Poetic Edda

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 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Traditio wrote:
Martel732 wrote:I think he's saying it doesn't count because it's an outlier.


I'm saying that the Riptide isn't a SHV or a GMC. Even if GW made a rule saying: "no super-heavy vehicles or gargantuan monstrous creatures in non-apocalypse games," it would have absolutely no impact on player use of riptides.


Why do you care about SHV? They aren't that good.

They're stupid OP and cheesy and ruin the game.

Howso? A Malcador is not OP, cheesy, and most certainly doesn't ruin the game.

If it's superheavy then it automatically ruins everything to Traditio.

I'm being sarcastic. I'll make that clear in the post.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in us
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 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
If they wanted knights to be worth their points, they needed AV 14 front, AV 13 sides. As they are, they are crappy GMC-wannabes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
pm713 wrote:
I'm curious. Would removing the vehicle damage table make vehicles better enough to approach fairness?


Probably, but it still wouldn't fix the "no armour saves" argument.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@martel then how can death co get "whipped" by the equivalent of a terminator on the charge? I think you just had some unusually bad rolls.


You just don't get it. You don't get how insanely durable they are. I actually rolled ABOVE average. But the nova shield was up. He soaked the 9 normal wounds I did (3+ to hit, 5+ to wound isn't that good) with his 2+/5+++ and then I leaked one powerfist wound through out of 8 powerfist wounds. He comes back, hits three times, wounds three times and I make one FNP. I spent the rest of the fight not killing the thing. But it sure did keep my DC from fighting the rest of his list, as he murdered the rest of my list.

Riptide is actually a champ at CC because it never dies. You have to pray to win the combat by a single wound and then have it blow LD. Otherwise, it endures.


Well you could have pointed out he had his 3+ inv, I thought a couple fists could make it lose combat, and like you said, wiff leadership.


Due to the statline of the ion accelerator, they never need to nova that thing. So, it's ALWAYS the damn shield. ALWAYS. I just assume they have the thing up. Do you not ever play vs Tau? Or do your opponents waste their Novas on the jump power? The Riptide wouldn't be vomit-inducing if the base ion accelerator was S7 AP 3 and then novaed to S8 AP 2. That would at least give people a chance. Not that 5++/5+++ is bad, mind you.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/30 18:49:40


 
   
Made in ca
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pm713 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Traditio wrote:
Martel732 wrote:I think he's saying it doesn't count because it's an outlier.


I'm saying that the Riptide isn't a SHV or a GMC. Even if GW made a rule saying: "no super-heavy vehicles or gargantuan monstrous creatures in non-apocalypse games," it would have absolutely no impact on player use of riptides.


Why do you care about SHV? They aren't that good.

They're stupid OP and cheesy and ruin the game.


Explain.

And if I hear "They make your army obsolete" I'm gonna cry.

Considering that's your only argument, I'll just rebuttal rn.

Most of 40k is objectives, a IK list will do trash at this. An IK also only has about as much firepower as a tooled up leman russ and really only gets dangerous in melee. A shadowsword does have that scary blast but stay out of LOS and/or feed it useless units and dismember his tiny list because he brought a 500(?) point tank in a 1500 point game. Or better yet, kill it in one turn with a podding sternguard squad or your own d shots, or dark lances, ANYTHING anti AV.

Once again, we march to war, for Victory or Death!

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I wouldn't count on dark lances to get the job done. AP 2 sucks really bad now at anti-tank.

IK has better firepower than a Russ, but only twice the HP for more than twice the points. And weaker armor values.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/30 18:52:29


 
   
Made in ca
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Martel732 wrote:
 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
If they wanted knights to be worth their points, they needed AV 14 front, AV 13 sides. As they are, they are crappy GMC-wannabes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
pm713 wrote:
I'm curious. Would removing the vehicle damage table make vehicles better enough to approach fairness?


Probably, but it still wouldn't fix the "no armour saves" argument.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@martel then how can death co get "whipped" by the equivalent of a terminator on the charge? I think you just had some unusually bad rolls.


You just don't get it. You don't get how insanely durable they are. I actually rolled ABOVE average. But the nova shield was up. He soaked the 9 normal wounds I did (3+ to hit, 5+ to wound isn't that good) with his 2+/5+++ and then I leaked one powerfist wound through out of 8 powerfist wounds. He comes back, hits three times, wounds three times and I make one FNP. I spent the rest of the fight not killing the thing. But it sure did keep my DC from fighting the rest of his list, as he murdered the rest of my list.

Riptide is actually a champ at CC because it never dies. You have to pray to win the combat by a single wound and then have it blow LD. Otherwise, it endures.


Well you could have pointed out he had his 3+ inv, I thought a couple fists could make it lose combat, and like you said, wiff leadership.


Due to the statline of the ion accelerator, they never need to nova that thing. So, it's ALWAYS the damn shield. ALWAYS. I just assume they have the thing up. Do you not ever play vs Tau? Or do your opponents waste their Novas on the jump power? The Riptide wouldn't be vomit-inducing if the base ion accelerator was S7 AP 3 and then novaed to S8 AP 2. That would at least give people a chance. Not that 5++/5+++ is bad, mind you.


No, I don't play tau often. I suspect that's why I don't have as much as a hate for MCs as you

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The only saving grace with 3+ MCs is that poison is dangerous to them. But 2+ MCs and GMCs just give poison the middle finger. It's so frustrating.
   
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Martel732 wrote:
I wouldn't count on dark lances to get the job done. AP 2 sucks really bad now at anti-tank.

IK has better firepower than a Russ, but only twice the HP for more than twice the points. And weaker armor values.


Rapid fire battle cannon and a stubber is about equivalent to a normal battle cannon, hull mounted las cannon, and sponsons of whatever variety, don't you think?

And I was suggesting lances because it at least knocks it down to a 4+ to hurt compared to, say, a lascannon. WAsn't really counting on explode result

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It's also worth noting on the Land Raider + Dozer Blade argument that Space Wolf Land Raiders can't get dozer blades last I checked - Land Raiders may take stuff from the Vehicle Equipment List, yes, and the Dozer blade is in that list, yes... with a tiny itty bitty footnote saying it cannot be taken by Land Raiders.

Woo.
   
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Martel732 wrote:
I wouldn't count on dark lances to get the job done. AP 2 sucks really bad now at anti-tank.

IK has better firepower than a Russ, but only twice the HP for more than twice the points. And weaker armor values.


...and have a S: D melee wep, can't be immobilized, has stomp, ion shield, better BS, etc... I think it's more than fair.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/05/30 18:58:11


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 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I wouldn't count on dark lances to get the job done. AP 2 sucks really bad now at anti-tank.

IK has better firepower than a Russ, but only twice the HP for more than twice the points. And weaker armor values.


Rapid fire battle cannon and a stubber is about equivalent to a normal battle cannon, hull mounted las cannon, and sponsons of whatever variety, don't you think?

And I was suggesting lances because it at least knocks it down to a 4+ to hurt compared to, say, a lascannon. WAsn't really counting on explode result


You won't take off the 6HP before it has stomped all over your list, though. That's why I quit using lascannons altogether in every list I build.

IK has rapid fire battle cannon is much better than normal battle cannon, and it's got a triple krak launcher on the carapace, and a meltagun in the hull. If you trade out the battle cannon for the avenger gatling cannon, it's much better than a Russ, because it can hurt MCs now. Well, some MCs. DKs and Riptides are still immortal. It's funny how 2+ is crap on infantry models, but put it on a T6 multiwound model, and it becomes crazy. Oh, GW.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/30 19:00:18


 
   
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 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I wouldn't count on dark lances to get the job done. AP 2 sucks really bad now at anti-tank.

IK has better firepower than a Russ, but only twice the HP for more than twice the points. And weaker armor values.


Rapid fire battle cannon and a stubber is about equivalent to a normal battle cannon, hull mounted las cannon, and sponsons of whatever variety, don't you think?

And I was suggesting lances because it at least knocks it down to a 4+ to hurt compared to, say, a lascannon. WAsn't really counting on explode result


No, the Knight has better firepower. If the Russ fires its battle cannon, that hull mounted lascannon and sponsons are snap-firing, because reasons.

Another difference between vehicles and MCs - if an MC fires an ordnance weapon, no one cares, but if a vehicle fires one, it's having to snap fire the rest of its guns unless it is a superheavy.
   
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Martel732 wrote:
 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I wouldn't count on dark lances to get the job done. AP 2 sucks really bad now at anti-tank.

IK has better firepower than a Russ, but only twice the HP for more than twice the points. And weaker armor values.


Rapid fire battle cannon and a stubber is about equivalent to a normal battle cannon, hull mounted las cannon, and sponsons of whatever variety, don't you think?

And I was suggesting lances because it at least knocks it down to a 4+ to hurt compared to, say, a lascannon. WAsn't really counting on explode result


You won't take off the 6HP before it has stomped all over your list, though. That's why I quit using lascannons altogether in every list I build.

IK has rapid fire battle cannon is much better than normal battle cannon, and it's got a triple krak launcher on the carapace, and a meltagun in the hull. If you trade out the battle cannon for the avenger gatling cannon, it's much better than a Russ, because it can hurt MCs now. Well, some MCs. DKs and Riptides are still immortal. It's funny how 2+ is crap on infantry models, but put it on a T6 multiwound model, and it becomes crazy. Oh, GW.


At least it's got rending.

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 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I wouldn't count on dark lances to get the job done. AP 2 sucks really bad now at anti-tank.

IK has better firepower than a Russ, but only twice the HP for more than twice the points. And weaker armor values.


Rapid fire battle cannon and a stubber is about equivalent to a normal battle cannon, hull mounted las cannon, and sponsons of whatever variety, don't you think?

And I was suggesting lances because it at least knocks it down to a 4+ to hurt compared to, say, a lascannon. WAsn't really counting on explode result


You won't take off the 6HP before it has stomped all over your list, though. That's why I quit using lascannons altogether in every list I build.

IK has rapid fire battle cannon is much better than normal battle cannon, and it's got a triple krak launcher on the carapace, and a meltagun in the hull. If you trade out the battle cannon for the avenger gatling cannon, it's much better than a Russ, because it can hurt MCs now. Well, some MCs. DKs and Riptides are still immortal. It's funny how 2+ is crap on infantry models, but put it on a T6 multiwound model, and it becomes crazy. Oh, GW.


At least it's got rending.


Do you really want to know how many avenger gatling cannon shots it takes to kill a DK or Riptide? It's way more shots than you'll ever get in a game. The rending is almost useless with that few shots. Basically, these 200ish point models can laugh at a 400+ pt model. Super fair.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/30 19:06:09


 
   
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Unit1126PLL wrote:It's also worth noting on the Land Raider + Dozer Blade argument that Space Wolf Land Raiders can't get dozer blades last I checked - Land Raiders may take stuff from the Vehicle Equipment List, yes, and the Dozer blade is in that list, yes... with a tiny itty bitty footnote saying it cannot be taken by Land Raiders.

Woo.

Oops.

Unit1126PLL wrote:
 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I wouldn't count on dark lances to get the job done. AP 2 sucks really bad now at anti-tank.

IK has better firepower than a Russ, but only twice the HP for more than twice the points. And weaker armor values.


Rapid fire battle cannon and a stubber is about equivalent to a normal battle cannon, hull mounted las cannon, and sponsons of whatever variety, don't you think?

And I was suggesting lances because it at least knocks it down to a 4+ to hurt compared to, say, a lascannon. WAsn't really counting on explode result


No, the Knight has better firepower. If the Russ fires its battle cannon, that hull mounted lascannon and sponsons are snap-firing, because reasons.

Another difference between vehicles and MCs - if an MC fires an ordnance weapon, no one cares, but if a vehicle fires one, it's having to snap fire the rest of its guns unless it is a superheavy.
Right, forgot about that rule.

Martel732 wrote:
 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I wouldn't count on dark lances to get the job done. AP 2 sucks really bad now at anti-tank.

IK has better firepower than a Russ, but only twice the HP for more than twice the points. And weaker armor values.


Rapid fire battle cannon and a stubber is about equivalent to a normal battle cannon, hull mounted las cannon, and sponsons of whatever variety, don't you think?

And I was suggesting lances because it at least knocks it down to a 4+ to hurt compared to, say, a lascannon. WAsn't really counting on explode result


You won't take off the 6HP before it has stomped all over your list, though. That's why I quit using lascannons altogether in every list I build.

IK has rapid fire battle cannon is much better than normal battle cannon, and it's got a triple krak launcher on the carapace, and a meltagun in the hull. If you trade out the battle cannon for the avenger gatling cannon, it's much better than a Russ, because it can hurt MCs now. Well, some MCs. DKs and Riptides are still immortal. It's funny how 2+ is crap on infantry models, but put it on a T6 multiwound model, and it becomes crazy. Oh, GW.
With enough firepower 6 HP can go down pretty quick. Just pray he doesn't have a dominus with the uncreator gauntlet and servitors with servo arms. INVINCIBLE!

Once again, we march to war, for Victory or Death!

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Martel732 wrote:
 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I wouldn't count on dark lances to get the job done. AP 2 sucks really bad now at anti-tank.

IK has better firepower than a Russ, but only twice the HP for more than twice the points. And weaker armor values.


Rapid fire battle cannon and a stubber is about equivalent to a normal battle cannon, hull mounted las cannon, and sponsons of whatever variety, don't you think?

And I was suggesting lances because it at least knocks it down to a 4+ to hurt compared to, say, a lascannon. WAsn't really counting on explode result


You won't take off the 6HP before it has stomped all over your list, though. That's why I quit using lascannons altogether in every list I build.

IK has rapid fire battle cannon is much better than normal battle cannon, and it's got a triple krak launcher on the carapace, and a meltagun in the hull. If you trade out the battle cannon for the avenger gatling cannon, it's much better than a Russ, because it can hurt MCs now. Well, some MCs. DKs and Riptides are still immortal. It's funny how 2+ is crap on infantry models, but put it on a T6 multiwound model, and it becomes crazy. Oh, GW.


At least it's got rending.


Do you really want to know how many avenger gatling cannon shots it takes to kill a DK or Riptide? It's way more shots than you'll ever get in a game. The rending is almost useless with that few shots.


That's the same problem small arms has. People say "Well, the balance between MCs and tanks is that small arms can hurt MCs." Really? Lets see:

To do five wounds to a riptide, you have to get through its save. That's 30 wounds, for a 2+ save, without FNP. Then you have to wound it, which for lasguns from Guard or boltguns from Marines is 180 hits. Then you have to hit it, which for Guard lasguns is 360 shots, for Marines it's 270 shots.

yeah. So vulnerable.
   
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If any significant amount of the lascannons or lances are coming through the ion shield, you're out of luck. But if you deep strike fusion suits/melta/fire dragons on its side, it dies. Get scatterbikes on its side for two turns, it dies.
   
 
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