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Made in us
Bounding Dark Angels Assault Marine





 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
 Col.Gravis wrote:

Fundamentally I disagree.

story noun. an account of imaginary or real people and events told for entertainment.

The 40k End Times will tell the story of how we get from the current setting to the next one, no it will not be a single linear story, none the less the combined lore which will be established in any and all 40k End Times book will chart the story arc.

I don't want to get from the current setting to the next one. I like the current setting. If I wanted a different setting I'd go play a different game.

One of the biggest selling points of the current setting is that it's 2 minutes to midnight. Mankind is doomed. If they advance the timeline and everyone doesn't die then that aspect is ruined. If they advance the timeline and everyone doesn't die and they bring back primarch superheroes who gallantly fight back and turn the tide then EVERYTHING is ruined.


Then you can continue playing the game as if the setting didn't change? Nobodies holding a gun to your head forcing you to go along with the lore advancement. Just like people who still play with the old rule sets, you can still play with the old setting. Some of us think moving the story forward is exciting and cool and provides new settings for our gaming. Some people don't, I completely respect that. I think you're taking it a bit too seriously though.

The 1st Legion
Interrogator-Chaplain Beremiah's Strike Force
The Tearers of Flesh 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Biloxi, MS USA

Requizen wrote:
 MajorTom11 wrote:


Um, he is called Magnus the Red because he has red skin, he isn't pink...




More than that, he was originally called Magnus the Red because of his HAIR.

You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie
The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was 
   
Made in us
Infiltrating Broodlord




Lake County, Illinois

 MajorTom11 wrote:


Um, he is called Magnus the Red because he has red skin, he isn't pink...


He used to be called Magnus the Red because he had red hair, not red skin. I seem to recall his skin being described as coppery, but not sure where I read that. He also had one eye.

I guess they changed all that recently or something. Apparently now he has red skin, no beard, and two eyes. But he didn't originally.
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard




 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
 Col.Gravis wrote:

Fundamentally I disagree.

story noun. an account of imaginary or real people and events told for entertainment.

The 40k End Times will tell the story of how we get from the current setting to the next one, no it will not be a single linear story, none the less the combined lore which will be established in any and all 40k End Times book will chart the story arc.

I don't want to get from the current setting to the next one. I like the current setting. If I wanted a different setting I'd go play a different game.

One of the biggest selling points of the current setting is that it's 2 minutes to midnight. Mankind is doomed. If they advance the timeline and everyone doesn't die then that aspect is ruined. If they advance the timeline and everyone doesn't die and they bring back primarch superheroes who gallantly fight back and turn the tide then EVERYTHING is ruined.


Look, I love the 40k setting. But it's been essentially the same for 20 years, with only some retcons to freshen things up. And it's fine if it's always the same, but what's so bad about moving it forward a smidgeon in over two decades? No one is talking about the destruction of the Traitor Legions and the death of the Chaos Gods. We're talking about things going from "Bad things are about to happen to the galaxy soon(ish)" to "Holy gak bad things are about to happen to the galaxy RIGHT NOW".

Primarchs aren't going to end the setting, they're the heralds of the end. Once they make models for the Emperor, the Chaos Gods, Cegorach, and the Tyranid Hive Mind, I'll be with you that they're destroying the setting. We're getting Heroes and Villains, not Gods and Devils, and that's fine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Albino Squirrel wrote:
 MajorTom11 wrote:


Um, he is called Magnus the Red because he has red skin, he isn't pink...


He used to be called Magnus the Red because he had red hair, not red skin. I seem to recall his skin being described as coppery, but not sure where I read that. He also had one eye.

I guess they changed all that recently or something. Apparently now he has red skin, no beard, and two eyes. But he didn't originally.


The fluff from the past few editions has had him with red skin, and two eyes but one was destroyed in the Warp. If it's changed, it hasn't been recently.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/11 14:08:23


 
   
Made in se
Executing Exarch






 Vash108 wrote:
As an aside, with this new video being "wink and nod" and fun poking. Do you think this may be a start for GW being a bit more open to interacting with their fanbase?


That's exactly what they've been doing this whole year. I mean, for AoS they even wrote a rule book based on community rules and with direct community input. Then they live streamed an entire tournament, with commentary, going so far as to take questions on stream from users in the chat and giving answers about the possible future of the game. They wrote FAQs based on questions on their FB Group. They are already all in on community interaction, this is just continuing that trend.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/10/11 14:19:44


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






New Orleans, LA

Davor wrote:
. They're actually doing it, they're bringing Primarchs back,


When did they leave rules wise? They were never in the game. So I am a bit puzzled on how they are bringing them back when they were never in the game in the first place, or did I miss something?


They were in Epic 40k, but not main 40k. You'll have to go find an old Epic rulebook and/or datasheets on ebay or online. However, the Primarchs are currently in Forge World Horus Heresy, but that's 30k stats. Most of the Primarchs have stats in Horus Heresy. Still waiting to see Magnus, Russ, and a few others.

These:

Spoiler:



are meant for this tiny scaled Epic 40k game of old...


Spoiler:


For completion, Forgeworld has these guys. Like, right now! https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/The-Horus-Heresy?Nu=product.repositoryId&N=102644+4294965006&qty=8&sorting=rec&view=table&categoryId=cat2210033

What a time to be a gamer!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/11 14:30:32


DA:70S+G+M+B++I++Pw40k08+D++A++/fWD-R+T(M)DM+
 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 Col.Gravis wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Col.Gravis wrote:
40k needs a kick up the arse, the rules are stagnant and bloated.


Which has nothing to do with the fluff.


So read the rest of my post my good man and address that.


So you want to stiffle player creativy...

Story=player creativy dies
Setting=player creativy blooms

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard




tneva82 wrote:
 Col.Gravis wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Col.Gravis wrote:
40k needs a kick up the arse, the rules are stagnant and bloated.


Which has nothing to do with the fluff.


So read the rest of my post my good man and address that.


So you want to stiffle player creativy...

Story=player creativy dies
Setting=player creativy blooms


What? Having one does not delete the other. If the Primarchs are fighting the Daemon Primarchs in one sector of the galaxy, that doesn't change the fact that my special snowflake Successor Chapter is in another sector fighting heretics or xenos. It doesn't suddenly make my Necrons campaign to reclaim their former homes somehow non-existent. The setting is still there and is, on the whole, unchanged. Unless your personal story revolves around the main characters of the 40k universe, nothing changes. Maybe your dudes suddenly become wrapped up in fighting the new threat (or, if you're Chaos, are called to follow Magnus through the Eye), but it doesn't make the rest of the universe null and void.
   
Made in us
Auspicious Aspiring Champion of Chaos






 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
This Magnus has horny eyes, and horny nipples!


Apparently, the nights on Fenris are cold.

2000 Khorne Bloodbound (Skullfiend Tribe- Aqshy)
1000 Tzeentch Arcanites (Pyrofane Cult - Hysh) in progress
2000 Slaves to Darkness (Ravagers)
 
   
Made in be
Wicked Warp Spider





Requizen wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 Col.Gravis wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Col.Gravis wrote:
40k needs a kick up the arse, the rules are stagnant and bloated.


Which has nothing to do with the fluff.


So read the rest of my post my good man and address that.


So you want to stiffle player creativy...

Story=player creativy dies
Setting=player creativy blooms


What? Having one does not delete the other. If the Primarchs are fighting the Daemon Primarchs in one sector of the galaxy, that doesn't change the fact that my special snowflake Successor Chapter is in another sector fighting heretics or xenos. It doesn't suddenly make my Necrons campaign to reclaim their former homes somehow non-existent. The setting is still there and is, on the whole, unchanged. Unless your personal story revolves around the main characters of the 40k universe, nothing changes. Maybe your dudes suddenly become wrapped up in fighting the new threat (or, if you're Chaos, are called to follow Magnus through the Eye), but it doesn't make the rest of the universe null and void.


Primarchs should be something for an age of myths. We have a "40k historical", is Horus Heresy. Bring back those in current 40k kills all the mythology, uncertainty, contradictions, lore of the 10k years post-heresy.
Plus, these huge models contribute to the scaling up of the game.

It kills the charm, if you wish.

And that's terrible.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/10/11 14:49:14


Generic characters disappearing? Elite units of your army losing options and customizations? No longer finding that motivation to convert?
Your army could suffer Post-Chapterhouse Stress Disorder (PCSD)! If you think that your army is suffering one or more of the aforementioned symptoms, call us at 789-666-1982 for a quick diagnosis! 
   
Made in ca
[DCM]
Acolyte of Goodwin






Sunny SoCal

 kronk wrote:
I will never be able to paint his wings this fabulous.



You really really will... that is actually quite easy to pull off, no joke. Paint the outermost feathers blue-black, paint the innermost purple/crimson, drybrush turquoise over it all. My main reason for having a sliver of doubt this was legit was that the paint-job was quite basic. I promise you, when pro's get a hold of this it will make you 'cream your jeans' (Baldwin-Trump).

   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard




 Kaiyanwang wrote:
Requizen wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 Col.Gravis wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Col.Gravis wrote:
40k needs a kick up the arse, the rules are stagnant and bloated.


Which has nothing to do with the fluff.


So read the rest of my post my good man and address that.


So you want to stiffle player creativy...

Story=player creativy dies
Setting=player creativy blooms


What? Having one does not delete the other. If the Primarchs are fighting the Daemon Primarchs in one sector of the galaxy, that doesn't change the fact that my special snowflake Successor Chapter is in another sector fighting heretics or xenos. It doesn't suddenly make my Necrons campaign to reclaim their former homes somehow non-existent. The setting is still there and is, on the whole, unchanged. Unless your personal story revolves around the main characters of the 40k universe, nothing changes. Maybe your dudes suddenly become wrapped up in fighting the new threat (or, if you're Chaos, are called to follow Magnus through the Eye), but it doesn't make the rest of the universe null and void.


Primarchs should be something for an age of myths. We have a "40k historical", is Horus Heresy. Bring back those kills all the mythology, uncertainty, contradictions, lore of the 10k years post-heresy. Plus, these huge models contribute to the scaling up of the game.

And that's terrible.


I agree on the scaling up. I personally dislike seeing Riptides, Stormsurges, Knights, Wraithknights, and the like on every table. It makes my dudes feel much smaller in comparison.

I don't agree on the first part. Primarchs are myths, sure. But so are most of the other characters in lore - Eldrad is probably on the power level of a Primarch (not in game, but in the lore setting), and has done as much if not more for the lore than any Primarch can claim, having existed and meddled through the Heresy as well as the current setting. The Avatar of Khaine has been in the game forever and (in the lore) is on their level. You should only see one in like a century if not longer. Fateweaver and Skarbrand are freaking mythical, they're considered the most powerful of their respective Daemon types. The Swarmlord darn near killed most of Ultramar by himself and his genetic material is considered one of the strongest and most deadly of all Tyranids in the known galaxy. And even if they're not on the same power level, most of the Tau characters are heroes of lore to that species.

The Primarchs are only considered "lore for the age of myths" because they historically haven't existed in 40k except for background and the one Russ model. They aren't anything more powerful or lore-fueled than things that already exist.
   
Made in gb
Major




London

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Difference is, they can easily just write off a sector, or bring in more uber-good-guys to fight the uber-bad-guys. They can escalate loads or roll it back without doing much more than annihilating a few star systems in the fluff.

Unless they wake the Emperor. No going back from that!


One would have thought that theres no going back from reintroducing the primarchs to the setting, my dear boy.
   
Made in ru
Dakka Veteran




The charm depends more on the player base around you, rather than what GW is putting out.
i dislike the " scaling up" trend myself, nor do I like the unbalanced codecies, but I have never encountered them in a game, so I can't really complain

I liked the size of armies 4th edition had, so I just choose to player lower point cost games
   
Made in be
Wicked Warp Spider





Requizen wrote:


The Primarchs are only considered "lore for the age of myths" because they historically haven't existed in 40k except for background and the one Russ model. They aren't anything more powerful or lore-fueled than things that already exist.


Too much of the current chapter lore is linked to how reacted to the death or departure of "dad". This is valid even for chaos somehow, since commanders like Arhiman went on their own way, other like Typhus took "executive power" and so on.

This looks cool now but soon we will realise that they are killing the part of flavour that make these ex-legions, loyal or not, special. Primarchs are cumbersome in 40k, the character development of their children is way more important for the setting. Is way more interesting and concerning marines (that are not the only thing in 40k, at least they should not be) shifting the focus back on the big guys will kill character.

Avatars are powerful, so are Greater Daemons, but they are not as much "charged" lore wise. Balance is a thing, but this is more a disaster for the lore standpoint.

We will regret this wish, trust me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
SnotlingPimpWagon wrote:
The charm depends more on the player base around you, rather than what GW is putting out.
i dislike the " scaling up" trend myself, nor do I like the unbalanced codecies, but I have never encountered them in a game, so I can't really complain

I liked the size of armies 4th edition had, so I just choose to player lower point cost games


I am lucky myself, but you find people putting 2 LOW in a 1000 point game. GW endorses this because we keep buying big kits, in multiple copies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
Difference is, they can easily just write off a sector, or bring in more uber-good-guys to fight the uber-bad-guys. They can escalate loads or roll it back without doing much more than annihilating a few star systems in the fluff.

Unless they wake the Emperor. No going back from that!


One would have thought that theres no going back from reintroducing the primarchs to the setting, my dear boy.


This.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/10/11 15:05:39


Generic characters disappearing? Elite units of your army losing options and customizations? No longer finding that motivation to convert?
Your army could suffer Post-Chapterhouse Stress Disorder (PCSD)! If you think that your army is suffering one or more of the aforementioned symptoms, call us at 789-666-1982 for a quick diagnosis! 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard




 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
Difference is, they can easily just write off a sector, or bring in more uber-good-guys to fight the uber-bad-guys. They can escalate loads or roll it back without doing much more than annihilating a few star systems in the fluff.

Unless they wake the Emperor. No going back from that!


One would have thought that theres no going back from reintroducing the primarchs to the setting, my dear boy.


Why? They were never dead. The Daemon Primarchs were written about in pretty much every CSM publication ever and in every BRB lore section as being alive and leading their legions (or in the case of some, sulking while their legions do whatever they want). Just because we haven't seen them on the table doesn't mean they weren't part of the lore. Heck, Magnus already attacked Fenris in another publication and fought Dread-Bjorn. Mortarian appeared in that disgusting Draigo story about the Grey Knights, where he didn't die and we'll leave it at that.

The Loyalist Primarchs aren't necessarily dead either. Guillman and Jonson have always been said to somehow be recovering, Vulkan is... complicated, Khan and Russ are just lost in the warp and not actually dead. The fluff heavily references that they will show up before the end of all things. So I don't see how this changes the story from being minutes to midnight


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Kaiyanwang wrote:
Requizen wrote:


The Primarchs are only considered "lore for the age of myths" because they historically haven't existed in 40k except for background and the one Russ model. They aren't anything more powerful or lore-fueled than things that already exist.


Too much of the current chapter lore is linked to how reacted to the death or departure of "dad". This is valid even for chaos somehow, since commanders like Arhiman went on their own way, other like Typhus took "executive power" and so on.

This looks cool now but soon we will realise that they are killing the part of flavour that make these ex-legions, loyal or not, special. Primarchs are cumbersome in 40k, the character development of their children is way more important for the setting. Is way more interesting and concerning marines (that are not the only thing in 40k, at least they should not be) shifting the focus back on the big guys will kill character.

Avatars are powerful, so are Greater Daemons, but they are not as much "charged" lore wise. Balance is a thing, but this is more a disaster for the lore standpoint.

We will regret this wish, trust me.


It will shake up the major chapters for sure depending on which ones come back, but some not so much. The Wolves already think Russ is still out there, and the return of the Wulfen strengthened that belief.

Magnus coming back does not change Ahriman's story at all. They're separate groups. Magnus banished Ahriman after the Rubric, so his return to the field of battle literally changes nothing about the current 1ksons storyline.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/11 15:12:50


 
   
Made in gb
Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

I am more hyped by the plastic sisters rumoured than making miniatures of Primarchs. Frankly i think it is a waste of direction by GW.

If they want to make awesome centrepiece models, plastic warhound titan, or plastic Thunderhawk would be my choice. Or an eldar Superheavy tank kit. any of whom would outsell magnus by a considerable margin.

This should have been left to Forgeworld.


n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut



Las Vegas

Requizen wrote:
 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:


Magnus coming back does not change Ahriman's story at all. They're separate groups. Magnus banished Ahriman after the Rubric, so his return to the field of battle literally changes nothing about the current 1ksons storyline.


That said, the bit of artwork that was partially shown in the video looks like it puts Magnus and Ahriman on the same battlefield, which could be all sorts of interesting.

Either way, as someone whose love for the Thousand Sons goes back to the beginning of my 40k involvement (1998), I am very hopeful about the faction marking of "Thousand Sons" on the Magnus box, dearly hope that brings a codex with that same marking, and that there are interesting and varied ways to build an army. I'd LOVE to see the ability to play either Ahriman's Cabal style TS or Magnus-led TS, and would also love to build the minis from that sprue he showed off in both blue and red.

Also can't wait to see if there are some interesting, TS specific psyker powers and objectives.

And the amount of F5ing that will be happening on preorder day, from me, if there's a collector's edition codex will mean adding a new keyboard for my computer to my purchases on that day.
   
Made in gb
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General




We'll find out soon enough eh.

 Col.Gravis wrote:
 Kaiyanwang wrote:

I fail to understand why Tabletop Games must necessarily have a lore moving forward. I want a setting, not a story. If I want a story I pick up a book, and not black library ones, a better written one ("b-but Aaron Dembski-Bowden..!" Ok ok we save him).

Now, expand the setting (say, add Tau), going in depth with lore (say, HH), narrative campaign (say, Armageddon) i can totally understand. But people build armies and spend time on the lore I think is not a good idea revolution it too much, unless is for stuff everybody loathes.



What exactly do we love about 40k?
The models? Sure, they are fantastic, but honestly, there are companies making better for less money.
The rules? Well I'm sure someone does.
Or the background, the lore, the setting? This is what really makes the game for a lot of people, sure its a miss-mash of original and ripped off concepts, of the cliché, but its unique.

So why progress it?

For my part, I guess I'm in the opposite corner to you, I want a story, an expanding grand narrative in which my games are played, not a static setting where nothing ever actually changes.

I might read a good book a few times, but even the best literally work gets essentially boring after a while - you know the story and how it will end, theres your static setting. A story arc where the ultimate ending is an unknown, much better.


Which is where you're supposed to come in. An ongoing story takes away the agency of the players, it makes our stories subject to the temporary commercial imperatives of a company in thrall to shareholders - the world your RPG campaign is set on gets wiped out, the character you've built your army around is killed, the faction that got you into the game is fundamentally changed, the storyline you and your friends have been collectively writing for years with successive campaigns gets casually overwritten because GW decided to set the latest chapter of their "grand narrative" in the same place and then take that narrative in a direction totally incompatible with your own work.

If I want to be told a story, I read a book, I watch a TV show, I play a videogame - I consume media, which provides a good balance of cost and effort expended to entertainment recieved. I don't spend potentially thousands of pounds and hundreds of hours of my life carefully building and painting models then hundreds more using those models to craft stories with my mates, then vaguely hope that some or all of that effort isn't made hollow and unsatisfying because GW needed to shift some extra boxes of Space Marines before the end of the financial year and decided to casually blow up a subsector or two I was using as quick and easy emphasis in the marketing.

They have a whole galaxy and ten thousand years to provide "story content" for those who can't be bothered to delve into the background for themselves, they don't need to fanny about with the status quo of the modern setting.

EDIT:

Warhams-77 wrote:
40k End Times is nothing new and doesnt mean they are invalidating armies or will do an Age of Roguemar

16+ years old, Inquis Exterminatus Artbook (Black Library, 2000) (Photo by me)



Where in that blurb are the Loyalist Primarchs returning? Again - it's only a Sword of Damocles while it's still hanging above your head, once it drops the tension is gone and the tone of the fiction fundamentally changes. There simply isn't any way to have the Loyalists return in a meaningful way without altering the Imperium and thus the setting as a whole beyond recognition. It can't be done, these are demigods, figures from myth for 99.999% of the Imperial populace, the implications of even one coming back are immense, and we're apparently getting several(rumoured by the same people who told us the Daemon Primarchs were coming, hence where this whole discussion started - this release means the other rumoures can no longer be ignored or wished away) - several angry demigods who will command the loyalty of hundreds of thousands of Space Marines and at least some of whom should be utterly disgusted by the state of the Imperium. Conflict between some of them and the Imperium as it stands and between themselves is completely inevitable if they're going to do justice to the fluff that already exists on them.

An Imperium united in superstition, stagnation and decline, its best days behind it, beset on all sides by alien menaces and haunted by daemons from the beyond and the shadows of the betrayal they inspired in ancient times, engaged in a futile attempt to stem the tide that mercilessly grinds down what little remains of their humanity as the clock ticks relentlessly towards midnight. That is 40K, that tone, that flavour, and it cannot survive the reintroduction of the Loyalists because doing so necessarily changes so much of the certanties that underpin it. We're not just talking about shifting the clock forward a wee touch here, the return of the Loyalists is literally supposed to herald the apocalypse, and even their existence will alter the Imperium beyond all recognition - or at least it should, because if it doesn't, if the return of the Loyalist Primarchs isn't as big a deal as previous fluff has stated and their inevitable impact on all the existing fluff would imply, why bother with them at all?

I suppose that's why I just don't get people who want the story to advance. Either the advancement is meaningful and significant enough that it significantly changes the setting, which would surely be a bad thing if you like 40K for what it is; or it's just an anaemic deckchair-shuffling exercise where nothing really changes, in which case what was the point?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/11 15:57:09


I need to acquire plastic Skavenslaves, can you help?
I have a blog now, evidently. Featuring the Alternative Mordheim Model Megalist.

"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal 
   
Made in us
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Denison, Iowa

Primarchs have shown up in 40k rules before. I believe that back in 5th edition they released rules for a Daemon Angron in White Dwarf. . He could take a bodyguard of up to 8 Blood Thirsters.
   
Made in be
Wicked Warp Spider





Requizen wrote:


Why? They were never dead. The Daemon Primarchs were written about in pretty much every CSM publication ever and in every BRB lore section as being alive and leading their legions (or in the case of some, sulking while their legions do whatever they want). Just because we haven't seen them on the table doesn't mean they weren't part of the lore. Heck, Magnus already attacked Fenris in another publication and fought Dread-Bjorn. Mortarian appeared in that disgusting Draigo story about the Grey Knights, where he didn't die and we'll leave it at that.


Is a matter of focus. Think about Lord of the Rings: Sauron is a shadow threat, a presence that we are just told about by Gollum, or by the action of his minions, or statements of Gandalf, and so on. We never have a chapter with him in his tower giving orders, shouting, casting evil spells, plotting evil plans, doing evil things, cooking evil lasagnas. Is looming in the background, never described but still pervasive.

That makes him effective. Is the same thing that makes effective the primarchs in 40k. We do not need to see Guilliman we see his legacy. In Ultramar, in the Smurfs, and whatnot.

An actual, physical Guilliman is less powerful as a character. And refocuses the "camera" in 40k on the wrong things, and on a scale I wish we would run away from.

@Yodhrin you are the best.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/10/11 15:41:01


Generic characters disappearing? Elite units of your army losing options and customizations? No longer finding that motivation to convert?
Your army could suffer Post-Chapterhouse Stress Disorder (PCSD)! If you think that your army is suffering one or more of the aforementioned symptoms, call us at 789-666-1982 for a quick diagnosis! 
   
Made in pt
Skillful Swordmaster




The Shadowlands of Nagarythe

 TheDraconicLord wrote:
 Col.Gravis wrote:
Respectfully, I disagree.

40k needs a kick up the arse, the rules are stagnant and bloated. But similarly the lore has been stuck at 10 minutes to midnight for a decade or more - shoving it forward 9 minutes and 45 seconds to the final cataclysmic conflict, the cadian gate wide open, chaos ascendant and at the very gates of Sol, the Xenos rising across the galaxy.

Good times. very good times ahead!

P.S the Emperor protects!


I fully agree! The codices, the books, even White Dwarf tease about the End Times and how they are here, I can only hope they ARE here and this won't be yet another clock reset like all others: I'm hoping for full blown devastation for an eventual 8th edition, I want to see famous worlds burn and iconic characters dying. With a plastic deamon Primarch I can only hope the lore will actually advance.

We faithful servants of the God-Emperor will be here to hold the tide of Darkness. Kill the Xenos! Burn the Heretic! Purge the Unclean!


You're mixing gameplay with fluff. Don't mix them.

"Let them that are happy talk of piety; we that would work our adversary must take no account of laws." http://back2basing.blogspot.pt/

 
   
Made in fr
Hallowed Canoness





 Yodhrin wrote:
An ongoing story takes away the agency of the players

This. That's something I dislike in Warmachine: yeah, Gunnbjorn is cool, but I have no say in how his story develop and who he will recruit in his army and all. PP decides all for me, and don't give me the option to make “my” character. I want to be able to do that in 40k, have my Canoness that does what I want her to do, interacting with the setting the way I find cool.

"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 
   
Made in be
Wicked Warp Spider





 cuda1179 wrote:
Primarchs have shown up in 40k rules before. I believe that back in 5th edition they released rules for a Daemon Angron in White Dwarf. . He could take a bodyguard of up to 8 Blood Thirsters.


Angron was banished in the Warp by GKs. Think about it, he led a chaos armageddon campaign, was in the recent history, but then he had to go. Fast.

Older writers knew this.

The current Magnus is too much. In everything, not only in its action-figure design. Is pornographic.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/10/11 15:40:23


Generic characters disappearing? Elite units of your army losing options and customizations? No longer finding that motivation to convert?
Your army could suffer Post-Chapterhouse Stress Disorder (PCSD)! If you think that your army is suffering one or more of the aforementioned symptoms, call us at 789-666-1982 for a quick diagnosis! 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Yodhrin wrote:


Which is where you're supposed to come in. An ongoing story takes away the agency of the players, it makes our stories subject to the temporary commercial imperatives of a company in thrall to shareholders - the world your RPG campaign is set on gets wiped out, the character you've built your army around is killed, the faction that got you into the game is fundamentally changed, the storyline you and your friends have been collectively writing for years with successive campaigns gets casually overwritten because GW decided to set the latest chapter of their "grand narrative" in the same place and then take that narrative in a direction totally incompatible with your own work.

If I want to be told a story, I read a book, I watch a TV show, I play a videogame - I consume media, which provides a good balance of cost and effort expended to entertainment recieved. I don't spend potentially thousands of pounds and hundreds of hours of my life carefully building and painting models then hundreds more using those models to craft stories with my mates, then vaguely hope that some or all of that effort isn't made hollow and unsatisfying because GW needed to shift some extra boxes of Space Marines before the end of the financial year and decided to casually blow up a subsector or two I was using as quick and easy emphasis in the marketing.

They have a whole galaxy and ten thousand years to provide "story content" for those who can't be bothered to delve into the background for themselves, they don't need to fanny about with the status quo of the modern setting.


This feels pretty absurd to me. 40K is not dungeons and dragons.

If you feel that you somehow retroactively no longer enjoyed the things you did, because something changed...I just have to scratch my head on that one. You can't make a story around the survivors that escaped?

Your stories are standing on pre-crafted stories. What is another layer, really?
   
Made in md
Been Around the Block




 Moopy wrote:
I sincerely hope that the 1k Sons sprue ISN'T from the new end of the year HH boxed set with the custodians.


It's not. The HH Marines in the game will be generic (except for the two characters).

But they come from the same CAD portfolio. Take, say, the computer models of generic 30K Tartaros Pattern Terminators, add 40K bling, change poses, switch a few weapons -> 40K Rubric Terminators. Saves time and effort and costs.

Same for the Tzeentch models. It was a massive design portfolio that included everything from Tzaangors to LoC and Magnus. They may not be the same sprue, but include lots of computer "bitz" and design elements from a large, newly created Tzeentch-design-elements-library.

(Similar approach for Khorne, Stormcast, etc..).
   
Made in gb
Member of a Lodge? I Can't Say





Just saying: The primarchs were always in the setting. They just weren't playable
   
Made in pt
Skillful Swordmaster




The Shadowlands of Nagarythe

NivlacSupreme wrote:
Just saying: The primarchs were always in the setting. They just weren't playable


It's what their return means, not that they weren't there to begin with.

"Let them that are happy talk of piety; we that would work our adversary must take no account of laws." http://back2basing.blogspot.pt/

 
   
Made in gb
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant






Here's one for you. Is Magnus going to be a 1 version kit, or will he be a multi purpose kit, and the lord of change will be the same kit.

My hobby instagram account: @the_shroud_of_vigilance
My Shroud of Vigilance Hobby update blog for me detailed updates and lore on the faction:
Blog 
   
Made in be
Wicked Warp Spider





Daedalus81 wrote:
 Yodhrin wrote:


Which is where you're supposed to come in. An ongoing story takes away the agency of the players, it makes our stories subject to the temporary commercial imperatives of a company in thrall to shareholders - the world your RPG campaign is set on gets wiped out, the character you've built your army around is killed, the faction that got you into the game is fundamentally changed, the storyline you and your friends have been collectively writing for years with successive campaigns gets casually overwritten because GW decided to set the latest chapter of their "grand narrative" in the same place and then take that narrative in a direction totally incompatible with your own work.

If I want to be told a story, I read a book, I watch a TV show, I play a videogame - I consume media, which provides a good balance of cost and effort expended to entertainment recieved. I don't spend potentially thousands of pounds and hundreds of hours of my life carefully building and painting models then hundreds more using those models to craft stories with my mates, then vaguely hope that some or all of that effort isn't made hollow and unsatisfying because GW needed to shift some extra boxes of Space Marines before the end of the financial year and decided to casually blow up a subsector or two I was using as quick and easy emphasis in the marketing.

They have a whole galaxy and ten thousand years to provide "story content" for those who can't be bothered to delve into the background for themselves, they don't need to fanny about with the status quo of the modern setting.


This feels pretty absurd to me. 40K is not dungeons and dragons.

If you feel that you somehow retroactively no longer enjoyed the things you did, because something changed...I just have to scratch my head on that one. You can't make a story around the survivors that escaped?

Your stories are standing on pre-crafted stories. What is another layer, really?


I fear you missed the part in which he explains that an army he put effort into is gone because "fluff must go on".

Furthermore, yes, seeing a whole galaxy of a setting just sketched because we have to move forward the plot of the usual suspects into more grimderp is quite irritating.
No wait is not irritating is infuriating.

Generic characters disappearing? Elite units of your army losing options and customizations? No longer finding that motivation to convert?
Your army could suffer Post-Chapterhouse Stress Disorder (PCSD)! If you think that your army is suffering one or more of the aforementioned symptoms, call us at 789-666-1982 for a quick diagnosis! 
   
 
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