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I suggest that with only 2 stat changes, the OK can become slightly more competitive overall.

First, Bump every model's attack by 1.

I know, Ogres are monsters and technically 3 is plenty. Though, with only 3 attacks they aren't generating enough kills to win combats (Usually dependent on Bulls flanking and Butcher Spam)

Also, a +1 to Weapon Skill. If an Orc gets WS 4, Why not an Ogre? WS 6 for Tyrants would also be lovely.

As an Ogre player of course I would love to see any change for the better in their stat lines. If I were to choose it would be a bump in strength for the Ogre Bulls. Another attack would be nice , but I think an increase to strength 5 would actually lead to more killing. You would be wounding more easily and all armor saves would be at a -2. It would also help the Bull Charges. To me there is nothing worse than seeing you Ogre tower over a warrior and swinging with the same strength. I don't envision Ogres fighting with a lot of skill, but when they hit something they should smash it.

The most effective way to fix ogres that I have found is to give them the stubborn rule when fighting a unit of US 1 models this would give them more staying power in combat.

The second (and a good addition to the one listed above) is to let them get rank bonuses for 3 wide rather than 5. Once again this will give them a bit of an edge against most other armies.

Hmmmmm.... I like the strength and/or attacks buff. I think basic bulls should have WS 4. But what about giving them a 6+ 'belly' save. They are supposed to have leather like skin and few nerves. ANd it would help their awful saves just a bit. It might work. Oh, and if we are talkng some bigger reworking, they need some better magic items and a magic banner that is worth a damn.

Hmmm.....that's sounds good, the "Belly" save thing.


The Rune Maw ain't bad. Keep a character with the Wyrdstone Necklace nearby and keep sending spells to him and his unit.

I don't see the need for 3 man rank bonus. Ogres in a back rank aren't getting any attacks, and are worthless, IMHO.

Ogres in the back rank give them a strong bull charge, which is certainly not worthless.

Weapon skill 4 would be a great addition. I'd like them to be able to use their ogre club while wielding an extra hand weapon. I find wounding to rarely be an issue when they hardly hit anything.

Give them some armor! T5 bulls are cute, but still die pretty easily. The best I can do outside of hand to hand is a 5+, 4+ in HtH and I'm giving up my ogre club to do it.

right, but Ogres in the back ranks aren't doing any killing, which makes them somewhat useless, IMHO. Still, S5 Bull Charge is nothing to laugh at.

My Proposed Statline for an Ogre Bull

M WS BS S T A I W Ld
6 4 3 5 5 4 2 3 7

With a 5+ save, it seems somewhat pointless to be only standard T4. With this Ogre, I'd remove the option of the Ogre Club, being natural S5. 4 Attacks is plenty enough, though I might put it down to 3 and give the option of Additional Hand Weapon. The WS has also been increased to 4.

I think we can all agree that giving ogres a points drop will result in more people taking multiple rank units of ogres...

I still don't think so.

Ogres with a points drop will probably be like 30 points er so. So it's like, 180 points for a unit of 6 bulls, which a 170 point 10 man Chaos Warrior unit with Great Weapons could kill. But 2 units of 3 can double charge the warriors and get more attacks, ergo more kills.

Toughness and strength 5 will never happen. Its a entire army of big things its not like they take up special or rare slots like other armies big nasties, Treekin and trolls come to mind. GW will never change it but might come up with somthing to even the playing field.

I don't know of much that can really level the playing field, besides either stat increases or point drops.

I can think of one thing... give us a friggin magic phase...

2 Butchers makes a Magic Phase.

Isn't Butcher Spam a viable tactic?

Not for me, my first (and so far only) game of fantasy was against a VC player. I only got off 2 spells the entire game... and that was because he was being nice... :(

Well VC, DE, Daemons, etc. have really great magic defense.

All the "new" codexes do, starting from High Elves.

I too am pretty dissatisfied with my ogres, and unfortunately am locked into playing them in a 16 week long local league

Here's what I'd like to see happen with an OK Redux:

1) Army-wide rule: AP on all attaks, ranged or otherwise
2) 3 40mm models to a rank
3) WS4+ ironguts, but you can't have more guts than bulls (elite guard, why the hell are there always loads of these guys??)
4) Slaughtermasters can be taken without a tyrant, so can be run under 3000 points
5) Many points dropped: bulls, yhetees, maneaters
6) Belchers either auto-hit or drop in points
7) Rhinox cav included in main list, get plastic kit
8) Some kind of flaming attak, maybe even replacing the +1S spell with one that makes a unit's attaks flaming - fire sauce / chiles / hot tamales, you name it

These changes would address many of the more glaring issues with the book, and still not remotely make them overpowered. With luck they'd alleviate my realization that right now about half of the book is a bad joke.

- Salvage

Ehhh, some things need more reworking than that IMO.

Merge Bulls & Irongut profiles.

WS3, S4, T4, A3, LD8, etc
Can have GW, Extra HW, Iron Fist, etc.

Leadbelchers move to Core, can not have more Leadbelchers than normal Ogres.

Maneaters move to Special.

Rhinox Riders Added to list.
Gorgers go 2 for 1.
Giants get Stubborn back.

Get gnoblar fast cav or something similar, remove limitation on Trappers.

Drop points on Yhetties, make a Scrap Launcher worth fielding.

Making Iron Guts WS4, but such that you can't have more of them than Bulls will make the list worse off than it is now, and more homogeneous in terms of build.

I like the thoughts here chaps. Of course ogres need a points break.
I think making hunters a rare or special choice would be better.
Gorgers not only 2 for 1, but maybe special as well. Or some rule like, ' you can have 2 gorgers as normal and up to two additional gorgers for every butcher in the army.'

Rhinox as a rare is a given.

I like giving the giant stubborn again, but make it conditional. I was thinking, 'Giant is stubborn as long as an ogre model is within 6 inches of giant.'

Good stuff though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and make the bull charge count no matter the distance from the target. Chariots and stegadons get impact hits if only an inch away, why not ogres?

Heres another set of changes:

Big names --> make them useful
Decrease big name points cost
OR
Make them not count against Armory allowances
OR
Allow one(and only one) free big name per character

I will say that Ogres having to pay out of their allowance for Big Names seems like something that isn't in line with the later books.

Also, champion prices need to come down a little. 20 points for one more attack? Really? That's up around the price that characters pay, and they're bringing a little more punch.

RZ

the 3 rank argument is an ancient one, but how about this one to help with CR?

-lets say crushers (champ upgrade). lets say for each unsaved wound they cause they get 2 points of resolution instead on 1. this would help with CR a little bit plus it would give you a reason to take the champ upgrade.

-i think iro9ngutz should be WS 4, if anyone gets it it should be them, i would like to see it elsewhere

-legalize rhinox. give the tyrant the option to ride a rhinox.

-slaughtermaster at 2k

-leadbelchers get a solid cannon shot, maybe str 6 cannon move and shoot reload as normal.

-point cuts for alot of things.

-some decent standards.

2 per slot gorgers and special maneaters.

more SC's. the recent chaos book had like 10.

I'm not so sure about crushers, but it's somewhat plausible.

I honestly think that Ogre's don't win combat through ranks, but they do through kills. Currently, they aren't doing so hot. Hence why they should have more attacks at higher strength.

I've read the posts on this site and I have to be honest, some of you have nice ideas and some of you well not so nice here are my views some are similiar to whats been said earlier (my friend tested it out and it kinda makes the army more fun to play with and gives it a better chance to win)

- all ogres like fighting as much as orcs so must be as good as fighting as orcs so ogres get +1 ws

- ogre skin is tough and leathery even capable of deflecting a sword blow, ogres get a bsae 6+ armour Save that can be modified with equipment

- ogres arn't scared of anything smaller then them and arn't likely to run away from small people like men, elves and orcs even when outnumbered thus ogre units never count as outnumbered against unit strength 1 models (originally this was going to be stubborn but after thinking about it we changed it to this as it made more sense)

- Ironguts are known to strap/staple/wear the heaviest armour they can find, but sometimes they get lucky and find/eat/kill even heavier armoured foes and take their armour to boot therefore we added the 'More Armour' upgrade (4+ armour save) to Ironguts (+8 pts/ model) and to bruisers and Tyrants (+10pts)

- we felt Butchers & Slaughtermasters need to be with a Tyrant or a Bruiser but you don't need both so you could include a Bruiser and take a slaughtermaster still

what do you think?

studderingdave wrote:the 3 rank argument is an ancient one, but how about this one to help with CR?

-lets say crushers (champ upgrade). lets say for each unsaved wound they cause they get 2 points of resolution instead on 1. this would help with CR a little bit plus it would give you a reason to take the champ upgrade.

-i think iro9ngutz should be WS 4, if anyone gets it it should be them, i would like to see it elsewhere

-legalize rhinox. give the tyrant the option to ride a rhinox.

-slaughtermaster at 2k

-leadbelchers get a solid cannon shot, maybe str 6 cannon move and shoot reload as normal.

-point cuts for alot of things.

-some decent standards.

2 per slot gorgers and special maneaters.

more SC's. the recent chaos book had like 10.

2 Gorgers is scary enough - do you REALLY think 4 is a good idea?

Leadbelchers are frequently fielded in units a slarges as 4 - trying to aim 4 cannonballs at a single target is a little over the top, both in terms of power and rules-bog. Besides, the fluff is that they stuff their cannons with shrapnel found on the ground, not carry half a dozen cannonballs with them.

I think the Slaughtermaster was restricted as a balance issue. I've seen 2 Butchers control a magic phase fairly well - adding in a Slaughtermaster could potentially send things into the stratosphere quickly.