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Okay, for obvious reasons, the ML has become the weapon of choice for SM Tactical squads since the new codex came out. There are variations, I personally prefer a Multi-melta, and some players, such as our very own Someguy, prefer occasional Plasma Cannons for the anti-TEQ fire. However, I think the new IG Codex has put a Mars-forged spanner in the works.

Simply put, the ML has the capacity to deal with nearly everything the SMs face. From the safety of their AV11 bunkers, they can send a S8 rocket into Wave Serpents, Dreadnoughts, Carnifexes, Bikes, other AV11 bunkers...or a S4 blast into hordes. All well and good. (For those of you doubting my sense at this stage, given that Wave Serpents also have AV12, read the Energy Field rule.)

Obliterators have been a small issue, but they're one easily solved by other things in the army, sheer weight of fire, or, of course, the ubiquitous MM, once again. MMs cover most of the bases the ML struggles with - specifically, SoulGrinders, Land Raiders, Hive Tyrants, and Oblits. They also have increased effect against other vehicles (except, again, the Wave Serpent!) The only problem with the MM is the comparatively short range. Generally, I contest that this isn't an issue - boards are usually only 4' deep, and you and your opponent usually deploy 12" in...if the opponent, or you, advance at all, you should be in range. If your deployed badly, and facing a block of infantry...well, that's your fault, and you still have two things in your favour:
1) Mobility. You're in a Rhino, so move.
2) Bolters. They can fire out the top hatch too.

This issue become cloudier now however. I've read, and written, a number of IG lists since the new Codex came out. I've been typically vocal about my ideas as to what exactly constitutes a good IG army, although, for those of you who haven't encountered it (how?!?) this is my latest offering, and a good example of what I expect to see finish very highly at the GT - I expect pure AirCav to win.

Statistically, the Chimera and Valkyrie don't pose any additional threat - AV12 still gives a Krak a 50% chance of shaken+. Not huge, but not bad. It still offers the necessary flexibility against Orks etc, and we all know how few points it costs.() The problem, is that you aren't going to be inside the Rhino very long. You need your first volley to count, because against Alpha Strike lists, it may be your last as well. They have more melta than a Salamander Company, and more mobility than Usain Bolt on coke. For this reason, I bring to your attention, once again, the potential answer to the Guard Dilemma...the one, the only, Lascannon.

I know, I know, you're thinking this is a 4th Ed hangover. It's really not. I took something of a hiatus from the game when 4th came out - other things in my life were more important at the time (not that I have nothing else in my life...I'm just digging a hole here huh?) and as a result I didn't play it very often (only one tournament, and that was with the current Ork Codex. 2/0/1 if you're interested, losing to BTs - and that was entirely my own fault.)

As a result, I don't get hung up on how awesome Las/Plas squads were. I understand it, but never used them, and would've found it slightly distasteful anyway, since I do like the fluff. I don't get hung up on it. If anything, I'm more hung up on 2nd, simply because I miss the stupidly huge number of weapons. But I digress. Lascannons have better odds against Chimeras and Valks. Equal against Serpents, and eliminate most of the requirement for Melta in the heavy format. They also have a chance against Monoliths...although everyone knows not to shoot them, right?

Okay, there's my thought, now - opinions please!

What are you talking about? People are still using meltas and lascannons on tac squads. I've never seen anyone use missile launchers.

Just because they're free doesn't make them popular.

Admittedly, I haven't read many army lists here on Dakka as I don't like the way the AL forum is set out...but elsewhere on the interwebs, certainly, the ML and MM have superseded the Las as the weapon of choice. Being free is obviously a factor.

In my experience, the majority of interweb lists are patently terrible from a competitive standpoint.

I rarely see missile launchers in lists. Multimeltas, lascannons, and plasma cannons are, and should be, far more popular.

True...

Overall then, the consensus is that the MM will cope? What about against this list?

Las Cannon for the crew squatting yours, MM for everyone else. You really don't need to be within 12' of AV 12 with a Multi.

Elessar wrote:True...

Overall then, the consensus is that the MM will cope? What about against this list?

LoL! That list has 24 KP, Why would you run a list they you insta-lose 1/3 of the time?



And yes MM are far better than Missile launchers.

Elessar wrote:True...

Overall then, the consensus is that the MM will cope? What about against this list?

So are you asking how marines deal with Air Cav Melta Vets?

Simple, Mech up with Vulkan. The melta vets have to deploy from the Valks to pop the rhinos, you dont care if they kill the rhinos or not, as soon as they deploy they kill in a perfect world 6 vehicles, if you know thats coming and have a proper counterpunch ready its not that much of a problem.

Im 4-0 so far against Air Cav with my Mech Vulkan marines, and Im a guard player now so I LOOOOVE Air Cav.

Clthomps wrote:

Elessar wrote:True...

Overall then, the consensus is that the MM will cope? What about against this list?

LoL! That list has 24 KP, Why would you run a list they you insta-lose 1/3 of the time?



And yes MM are far better than Missile launchers.

Having a lot of Kill Points doesn't mean you'll give up a lot of Kill Points.

Once your capacity for destroying AV 12 vehicles is used up, the rest won't be destroyed, regardless of how many more there are. It's a fairly hard list; not as hard as some, but it certainly won't "insta-lose 1/3 of the time".

(Where are you getting 24 KP from anyways? I only counted 17.)

Elessar wrote:True...

Overall then, the consensus is that the MM will cope? What about against this list?

lol @ the sniper rifles on the command squad

Yeah...should've replaced those with Flamers before linking the list...

Still, they're better at MC killing than Ratlings, which was the point I was trying to prove with them, in another thread.

My vulkan list wouldn't have a lot of trouble with that list at all. It has yet to lose to mechanzed IG in any form. That is the strongest I have faced (played a very similar list to that) but it didn't have the ass to finish me.

The deep striking mm/hf speeder squadrons and the mm attack bike squad was too much for it with the dreads and dakka preds smashing the valks and chimeras, the speeders and bikes mopped everything up nicely.

ML is good for when you have to take down either a large group of weak things or a lightly armoured tank. All depends on what you verse the most. I verse hoards like Tyranids a lot so the ML seems to be better than having a Multimelta. I just put the tank hunting stuff somewhere else like a Dreadnought unless you're in a hurry then Attack Bikes or something like that. I don't actually come across very many vehicles where I play, so I don't need heaps of tank hunting, but I still have some in case.

Clthomps wrote:

Elessar wrote:True...

Overall then, the consensus is that the MM will cope? What about against this list?

LoL! That list has 24 KP, Why would you run a list they you insta-lose 1/3 of the time?



And yes MM are far better than Missile launchers.

Only 17 KP in a 1750 list, mine has 18 and I do fine in KP missions.




As a IG player and a SM player, Combat squads w/ MM pose a much greater threat to me than ML. 2 Combat squads /w MM sitting in cover on an objective is much harder to push into.

In addition, Drop Podding and then Combat Squading a Tactical squad so there is a MM&CombiMelta in one half and a Meltagun in the other. Both fire at targets when they drop, then the MM starts shooting next turn while the meltagun runs after targets. It's good stuff.

Plus if you have some scouts you can stop the Valks from getting anywhere near your lines before the first turn by infiltrating them ahead of your army. Sure, you can then fly over them on the first turn, but then the vets squad has to use the grav shutes.

Unlikely, the Grav Chutes are pathetic. More likely they won't deploy.

Elessar wrote:Unlikely, the Grav Chutes are pathetic. More likely they won't deploy.

If they don't deploy, they can't use their meltas, which is the whole reason the guard player deployed them in the Valk in the first place.

When you use your scout move you have to stay 12 inches away from the enemy. Meaning that if you put forward some scouts the valks/vendettas won't be able to get past them.

So the only way to get a turn 1 melta shot off is to fly up 24 inches & use the grav shutes. Much better odds that way.

In my list, at least, they will Outflank anyway - the Infiltrators don't work on that.

how does the valk deploy thing work? I have not read the new IG codex enough... on the plus side I run Cato Sicarius So I can infultrate a tac squad if it means not eating a ton of melta fire

The Valk's Grav Chute Deployment rule lets the squad inside still deploy when the Valk moves 24". They get to deep-strike anywhere in the path the Valk moved through that turn, but all have to take dangerous terrain checks.

Elessar wrote:In my list, at least, they will Outflank anyway - the Infiltrators don't work on that.

But then you risk table side. And you don't get the scout move. And the other player is probably already getting to reposition. Still, not bad. Still vulnerable to DS Speeders eating them, though.

True, DS'ing Speeders are a serious problem for AirCav hybrids, as they rarely have room for Officers of The Fleet. Regular AirCav, however, does have room.

Also, with a 66% chance of best side anyway, and a re-roll? Outflanking with Guard just isn't that random anymore...