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This started as a response in the Primarch/Astrological signs thread but, per a fairly reasonable suggestion by Manchu, it seems this is probably enough of a bone to chew over seperately. Therefore I present some thoughts of how the 20 Primarchs have a fairly strong connection/relationship to the face cards of the Tarot;


Just as a sudden thought - has anyone considered the Tarot deck? It has 20 face cards and has astrological connections to each of them (though dashed if I can recall which off the top of my head) But it has some clearly obvious potential for Primarch connections. Heck, the Tarot is itself a device of divine prediction used by the Imperium.

Of course they do include an Emperor card...but I suppose we could add in the Fool card, then the Emperor could be The Emperor. Hmmm....

(As I did some research for this I realized I'd also forgotten The World card - since World represents the end of the story and Fool represents the protagonist and neither of those cards have astrological connections I suspect they can exist outside of the connections - still, I've included them as some thoughts below)

Fool - Horus/Emperor?
Known for being the protaginist of the story and also for often making a mistake or a correct leap of faith.

Magician (Magus) - Magnus the Red
The Magician has an obvious connection with Magnus. The Magus's mind and life will be entirely centred on his researches, and he has a tendancy to see everything around him as a tool or a project.

High Priestess - ?
The High Priestess is the card of knowledge, instinctual, supernatural, secret knowledge. The only mystic card on any level near the Magus, but generally accepted as more open to others.

Emperess - Fulgrim
At best, open, friendly, idealistic but practically so, gregarious, and diplomatic. At worst, materialistic, self indulgent, self-centered, over dramatic, and overwrought.

Emperor - The Emperor/Horus?
This card is definitely connected to Ares (I can remember that much) Like an infant, he is filled with enthusiasm, energy, aggression. He is direct, guileless and all too often irresistible. Unfortunately, like a baby he can also be a tyrant and be impatient, demanding, controlling. In the best of circumstances, he signifies the leader that everyone wants to follow, sitting on a throne that indicates the solid foundation of an Empire he created, loves and rules with intelligence and enthusiasm. But that throne can also be a trap, a responsibility that has the Emperor feeling restless, bored and discontent.

Hierophant (Pope) - Lorgar
Tasked with a job to bring the words of Heaven to the Earth and to preach the message to all who can here it, desire notwithstanding. At his best, he is wise and soothing, at his worst, he is an unbending traditionalist.

Lovers - Alpharius
Joined halves that is what this card is all about. Finding something or someone who is so much a part of yourself, so perfectly attuned to you and you to them, that you cannot, dare not resist.

Chariot - Guilliman
The chariot is one of the most complex cards to define. On its most basic level, it implies war, a struggle, and an eventual, hard-won victory; either over enemies, obstacles, nature, the beasts inside you, or to just get what you want. But there is a great deal more to it. The charioteer wears emblems of the sun, yet the sign behind this card is Cancer, the moon. The chariot is all about motion, and yet it is often shown as stationary. They pull in different directions, but must be made to go together in one direction. Control is required over opposing emotions, wants, needs, people, or circumstances; to bring them together and give them a single direction, your direction.

Justice - Ferrus Manus? (this card is often in a split role in decks with Strength, and thus the two are very similar in many ways. Reference Strength for why I suspect it to be Vulkan, but they could probably go either way)
Justice is about cold, objective balance through reason or natural force. It will be a scrupulously fair outcome. If the card is reversed, it can indicate bias, obstruction of the law, or legal complications.

Hermit - Lion El'Johnson? (this seems to tie in with some potential fluff with Cypher after all....)
Hermit is a card of introspection, analysis and, well, virginity. This is not a time for socializing; the card indicates, instead, a desire for peace and solitude. It is a time to think, organize, ruminate, and take stock. There may be feelings of frustration and discontent during this time of withdrawal. But such times lead to enlightenment, illumination, clarity. The Hermit represents a wise, inspirational person, friend, teacher, therapist, this a person who can shine a light on things that were previously mysterious and confusing. They will help the Querent (person a reading is for) find what it is they are seeking.

Wheel of Fortune - ? (in the 40k grimdark I'm pretty sure this primarch would have to be pretty damn dead already.)
The Wheel of Fortune is all about big things, luck, change, and fortune. Almost always good fortune. Almost every definition of this card indicates abundance, happiness, elevation, or luck; a change that just happens, and brings with it great joy.

Strength (Fortitude) - Vulkan?
Often shown as a Vestal Virgin tending a sacred flame. Fire is a fearful thing, hot, burning - all too easily able to spark out of control. But somewhere along the way, we lost our fear - but not our respect - for fire. And with will and intelligence, we made it our tool.

Hanged Man (Traitor) - Sanguinus? Guilliman? Horus? (there seem some obvious parralels to Sangy or Guilliman in the sacrifice for knowledge/gain or the timeless pause (statis even...) Horus is here due to the old style of card being called traitor but...eh)
The Hanged Man is a card about suspension, not life or death. This is a time of trial or meditation, selflessness, sacrifice, prophecy. The Querent stops resisting; instead he makes himself vulnerable, sacrifices his position or opposition, and in doing so, gains illumination.


Death - Mortarion/Saguinus? (the classic attitudes associated with death seems to indicate Mortarion, as does the name of course. Probably just vague rebirth/Jesus connection for Sangy)
Death card is far more likely to signal transformation, passage, change. Scorpio, the sign of this card, has three forms: scorpion, serpent, eagle. The Death card indicates this transition from lower to higher to highest. This is a card of humility, and it may indicate the Querent as being brought low, but only so that they can then go higher than they ever have before.

Temperance - Jaghaitai Khan (the arrow and movement aspects aside, I find solid connection in the thought of one who seemed an obvious primarch to turn traitor, who decided that he wasn't.)
Sagittarius, the centaur, merges beast and man into a unique creature. And then there is the bow and arrow, one moving, one stationary, working together to point the way. Temperance may be, at first glance, a warning to the Querent to "temper" their behavior, to cut their wine with water. But it may also be a reminder to the Querent that seemingly irreconcilable opposites may not be irreconcilable at all.

Devil - Perturabo? (the dissonance implied by the name with the focus on change and building implied by the card makes it a reasonable supposition)
this is a card about ambitions; it is also synonymous with temptation and addiction. On the flip side, however, the card can be a warning to someone who is too restrained, someone who never allows themselves to get passionate or messy or wild - or ambitious. This, too, is a form of enslavement. As a person, the Devil can stand for a man of money or erotic power, aggressive, controlling, or just persuasive. This is not to say a bad man, but certainly a powerful man who is hard to resist. At best, responsible, hard-working, methodical, practical, constructive and patient. At worst, suspicious, tense, frustrated, cold, rigid and demanding.

Tower (House of God) - Angron (don't be misled by the name, The Tower isn't about structures, it is about destruction, power, and change - Angron seems highly likely)
Tower is a card about war, a war between the structures of lies and the lightning flash of truth. The Tower shakes things up and wipes away previous institutions of thought so that something new may be put up - for better or worse.

Star - Corax (very likely connections with a dispassionate and wise observer/watcher who may return with new aide or thought)
The Star is a card that looks to the future. It does not predict any immediate or powerful change, but it does predict hope and healing. This card suggests clarity of vision, spiritual insight. And, most importantly, that unexpected help will be coming...

Moon - Konrad Curze
The Moon is all about visions and illusions, madness, genius and poetry. This is a card that has to do with sleep, and so with both dreams and nightmares. It is a scary card in that it warns that there might be hidden enemies, tricks and falsehoods.

Sun - Rogal Dorn (I'll avoid poking Manchu with why I think this is Dorn not Guilliman (he was first darnit!), but it seems a more likely fit for the staunch one who is a bringer of solidity if not change)
The card represents the loyal and unshakable ally. This is the light that comes after the long dark night, Apollo to the Moon's Diana. A positive card, it promises the Querent their day in the sun. Glory, gain, triumph, pleasure, truth, success. As the moon symbolized inspiration from the unconscious, from dreams, this card symbolizes discoveries made fully conscious and wide awake. This is science and math, beautifully constructed music, carefully reasoned philosophy. It is a card of intellect, clarity of mind, and feelings of youthful energy.

Judgment (Angel) - Leman Russ/Sanguinus? (Methinks Russ, the Sangy is here for the obvious connections...he's too easy to place. The connections to Valhalla and RUss seem obvious)
With Fire as its ruling element (or Pluto as its ruling planet), Judgement is about rebirth, resurrection. The idea of Judgement day is that the dead rise, their sins are forgiven, and they move onto heaven. Judgement is unbridled fury with a good cause. At best, unhesitating, definite, revolutionary and with flawless instincts. At worst, rash, extreme, violent, hot-tempered, moody, and uncontrollable.

World - (something that will never happen for GW)
This represents the end of the tale, the final result and destination. It is probably analogous to both Terra and Chaos and has connections to each. One will rise in ascendancy while the other shall fall to await a new chance to rise in a later reading.

Some thoughts,
Thor.

I like this idea A LOT. First of all, there is the connection with the Imperial Tarot. Second, there are 22 major arcana cards. That's more than enough to cover what is necessary. Oh and I would give some of them 41st Millennium names, too (in parentheses). Here's my take:

The Fool: Horus
The Magician: Magnus the Red (The Psyker)
The High Priestess: Fulgrim (The Fanatic)
The Empress: Rogal Dorn (The Golden Throne)
The Emperor: as it stands (Imperator)
The Hierophant: Lorgar (The Ecclesiarch)
The Lovers: the missing primarchs (Longing)
The Chariot: Jaghatai Khan
Strength: Leman Russ
The Hermit: Alpharius Omegon
The Wheel of Fortune: the Warp
Justice: Ferrus Mannus
The Hanged Man: Sanguinius (The Angel)
Death: Mortarion
Temperance: Vulkan (Humanity)
The Devil: Perturabo
The Tower: Angron (War)
The Star: Corax
The Moon: Konrad Curze
The Sun: Roboute Guilliman
Judgment: Lion El'Jonson
The World: Terra/the Galaxy

Leave it to you to place Dorn as the overwrought Empreress and move Guilliman to The Sun... I think Guilliman is a better Chariot then Khan because the Chariot often defines dictated and forceful direction and change (think The Codex)

Dare I ask what made you feel Fulgrim was a better match at High Priestess? I don't recall much mysticism or insight being particularly symbolized by him, but I'll happily admit I forget fluff all the time.

Interesting thought on The Lovers and perhaps a symbology of how their fates are intertwined in whatever it is they did to be purged (maybe the Emperor has a *very* serious don't ask don't tell policy...) But seriously, perhaps they are heavily entwined in some way and that's what got them stricken. I like Alpha/Omega in the Hermit spot and that might bear some consideration considering some of the new fluff regarding their association with Chaos.

A fascinating thought with applying the Warp to the tarot. It is clearly a strong aspect and potentially could have a representation. It's perhaps a bit of a sublimation of the card, but perhaps it represents The Wheel in its reversed position? I'm just uncertain about adopting a location and not a person to the astrological set of the cards (the middle 20). The Fool represents the protagonist or the force for change/changed force and the World represents the stage upon which the play is enacted. All of the other cards represent the actors/roles in the story and it seems potentially off to think of one of them as being a location when all the others represent the brothers and Father. Perhaps the Warp though as it represents Chaos, for if The Father deserves a card then why not the Dark Father of the Chaos Gods? I might need to think on this one some more.

Tarot cards can also represent the Querent and can have emotional/personality traits associated with them (I mention a couple of the ones I remembered in my listing above). I'll dig around to try to find my book on Tarot and post up some of this information as well, as it might offer some more interesting insights.

Dorn is like a mother figure: protective and possessive.

Perhaps Fulgrim and Lorgar could change places? While the Priestess is concerned with the world beyond, the Hierophant is a man of the world.

The Warp is not just a location. It is a force and a set of representative personalities--i.e., the Chaos gods, the (surviving) Eldar gods, Gork and Mork, etc, etc. (I would argue that they are all just manifestations of it, the Warp.) In any case, the Warp is not a setting. It is an active and reactive motive force.

Maybe my 41st Millennium names will help clarify?

What kind of imagery and symbolism would you suggest for each card?

Thor665 wrote:


Tarot cards can also represent the Querent and can have emotional/personality traits associated with them (I mention a couple of the ones I remembered in my listing above). I'll dig around to try to find my book on Tarot and post up some of this information as well, as it might offer some more interesting insights.

Please do

I skimmed through and read them mostly, but when I hit judgment I have to say it has to be Russ. The tarot says the dead rise and all that, as well as unbridled fury that Russ was known for. It describes him perfectly and the idea that they say he;ll eventually return to his wolves for one last, great battle seems to much like an adaptation of Judgment Day.

The card "Judgment" is not just about the mythical connotations of Ragnarok but about redemption and reconciliation. That's why it fits the Lion better.

Below I have listed out the Tarot by their associated personality traits. I have also included the primarchs that have thus far been proffered forth for each respective Tarot - feel free to discuss which seem more or less likely. Also included is the annotation work by Manchu showing the names of the Imperial Tarot when and where they are known.



Fool - Horus/Emperor?
You enjoy travel on all levels – mental, spiritual, emotional and physical. You’re someone willing to take chances and not so willing to be tied down to any one thing for too long. You can fit in almost everywhere you go and have the capacity to move forward without carrying a lot of baggage. You bring creative enthusiasm, innocence and new ways of looking at things to all your enterprises. Fool personalities are especially fun to be around and are usually the party favourite. Someone who is naive, gullible, child-like in their way of thinking but not necessarily innocence. The subject of the reading is a dreamer. One who lives in their own little happy world when it comes to the way they perceive things. He or she has desire to succeed but must be careful. On the other hand, The Fool could also represent someone who does not think ahead and takes foolish risks. He reminds of us the warning "look before you leap." He could also represent someone who is fearful of stepping out into the unknown.

Magician (41st - The Psyker) - Magnus the Red (this one seems almost too obvious to dispute)
Visionary and inspirational, you’re the person people go to for new ideas. You’ve got the uncanny ability to turn your ideas into reality – or at least get others so excited that they turn your ideas into reality. Focus is a key to your success. If you put your mind to something in a serious way, you’re almost assured that it will become a reality. Communications and clear quick thinking are your gifts. Magic is nothing more than the manipulation of energy to one’s will. At their best, Magician types are positive masters of manipulation.
At best; Originality. Creativity. Imagination. Self-reliance. Spontaneity. Self-confidence. Ingenuity. Flexibility. Masterfulness. Self-control. Deception. Sleight of hand.
At worst; greed, deceit, using one's skill and ability for negative ends. Trickery and cunning, manipulation, untrustworthiness, mental confusion.

High Priestess - Fulgrim? (41st - The Fanatic) (The Fanatic name potentially connects to FUlgrim, but the classic personality traits don't appear to)
Wisdom and refined receptivity define your basic nature. Not one to make a scene you quietly and carefully take note of everything around you. Sensitive to the subtlest of energies, you can be depended upon to notice what most of us miss. Your quiet patience and virtuous demeanor often set you on a pedestal people are grateful to bow before. Your intuition is strong and you tend to use your feelings at least as much as your fine intellect when making decisions that matter. Those represented by the High Priestess have the gift for seeing the whole picture without getting swamped by the details.
At best; Wisdom, Sound judgement, Serene knowledge, Common sense, Serenity, Objectivity, Penetration, Foresight, Intuition, Comprehension, Perception, Self-reliance, Emotionlessness, Platonic relationships, Practical.
At worst; Ignorance, Shortsightedness, Selfishness, Passion, Physical ardour, Acceptance of superficial knowledge, Improper judgement.

Emperess - Fulgrim/Rogal Dorn? (41st - The Golden Throne) (I've got to say, looking at the traits and the reversed card effects I'm really liking Empress as Fulgrim)
Deeply compassionate and nurturing, you’re a natural mother. If you’re not birthing children, you’re busy birthing new creations in the form of art, food or music, anything that inspires the senses. You are sensuality embodied and when you focus on your task, unusually prolific. Your kind nature draws many wayward souls your way and you do your best to help them all. To the Empress, nothing is more important than creation and creation grows from love. Reversed, the Empress suggests a loss of personal power through placing too much emphasis on another person’s emotional or material needs, thus neglecting one’s own. The reversed position of this card deals with indecisiveness concerning others and confusion about the direction a relationship may be taking. You may also be finding it difficult to work cooperatively with others. As the reason for this lack of harmony is likely to be within yourself; introspection is called for.
At best, open, friendly, idealistic but practically so, gregarious, and diplomatic.
At worst, materialistic, self indulgent, self-centered, over dramatic, and overwrought.

Emperor - The Emperor/Horus? (41st - Imperator aka Emperor (this card reads so beautifully for either of them it's hard to say)
Assertive and confident, you have a strong sense of your own dominion. You work hard to create the world you want to live in and have little tolerance for upstarts pushing in uninvited. Once you’ve set your mind to something, your focus rarely wavers. An aura of authority surrounds you, and you are often found in charge. You’re passionate about your convictions and few who know you are unaware of your beliefs. At your best you are dynamic, logical and know your own power. You can really make things happen, and woe be to those who might try to stop you. Even at his best, the Emperor is inescapably self-centered. He is absolutely confident that he is right and works entirely for his own aims. However, he identifies absolutely with his goals and if these are noble the Emperor's actions need not be ego driven. He can become extremely stubborn and fiercely argumentative should his orders or goals be questioned, as to him this amounts to a personal attack.
At best: Worldly power. Confidence. Wealth. Stability. Authority. Indomitable spirit. War-making tendencies. Father. Brother. Husband. Male influence. Domination of intelligence and reason over emotion and passion. Patriarchal figure.
At worst: Immaturity and confusion. Problems with those you consider enemies, Inability to reach goals. lack of energy both emotional and physical. Indicates a person weak in character over dependent on parents. Ineffectiveness. Indecision. Inability. Weakness of character. Failure to control petty emotions.

Hierophant (Pope) - Lorgar (41st - The Ecclesiarch)
Grounded and firm in your spiritual convictions, people look to you to help them with their important decisions. You’re often seen as a moral authority and it’s a role you relish. Family, tradition and practicality are highlighted with the Hierophant energy, as is a highly attuned sense of the divine. You spend a great deal of time trying to bring it down to earth for the rest of us to learn from. At times unyielding, you’re sense of right and wrong is firmly defined. When asked to make judgement, the Hierophant rarely shies away from the challenge. This card reversed is about breaking the rules somewhat, and breaking the norms. You may want to challenge ideas and concepts you once thought as written in stone. There may be an awakening to what is really happening around you and what it really means.
At best: Ritualism. Mercy. Kindness. Forgiveness. Inspiration. Compassion. Servitude. Inactivity. Timidity. Overt reserve. Captivity to one's own ideas. Tendency to cling to ideas and principles even after they are outdated. Conformity. A religious or spiritual leader.
At worst: Foolish exercise of generosity. Susceptibility. Impotence. Vulnerability. Frailty. Unorthodoxy. Renunciation.

Lovers (41st - Longing) - Alpharius/both of the missing primarchs? (I feel this is a very good card for Alpha/Omega and would also suggest since there are 20 constellation cards potentially the unknown primarchs would be the two we can't definitively place...)
It’s all about the relationships for you, romantic and otherwise. Tending to your networks is a vital component of your personality. You like to have people around you and are most comfortable as part of a couple. Though often quiet in a crowd, you pay close attention to what’s going on, finding lots to say later when safely home with your other half or close confidantes. Making choices can sometimes be a struggle and you might find yourself flip-flopping a bit till you’re finally ready to commit. But once you do, you generally mean it. Maintaining an open flow between one’s consciousness, unconscious and higher-consciousness helps the Lovers types maintain pleasant and well-balanced dispositions.
At best: Communication, togetherness, joining, shared goals and purpose, trust.
At worst: Failure to meet the test. Unreliability. Separation. Frustration in love and marriage. Interference from others. Fickleness. Untrustworthiness. Unwise plans.

Chariot - Guilliman/Khan? (I don't feel Khan represents either the stability or goal oriented unification of Chariot the way Guilliman does)
You’re at your best when you’re on the move. Nothing brings you down faster than forcing you to stay in the same place for too long. You work hard and move with the flow of things. Others depend on your fluid stability. People appreciate your strength and willingness to put in the work you expect from others. You’ve managed to unify the opposite elements within yourself and know what it takes to compromise. Victory is the fruit of the Chariot's labours as you are ultimately recognized for your determination, focus and steady loyalty.
At best: Adversity, possibly already overcome. Conflicting influences. Turmoil. Vengeance. Success. Possibly, a voyage or journey. Escape. Rushing to a decision. Need to pay attention to details. Urgency to gain control of one's emotions.
At worst: Life is unbalanced and passions are uncontrolled. There is victory but it is reached by cheating or unethically. A journey or trip planned is postponed. Failure. To lose at the last minute something otherwise in your grasp. Sudden collapse of plans. Overwhelmed. Failure to face reality.

Justice - Ferrus Manus (control, obligation of loyalty and law, and the connections to fire and the smithy make this a solid seeming connection)
Balance is vital to your persona and striving to maintain it is a primary focus. Your respect for authority is related directly to how fair and honest you perceive it to be. You have no time for liars and despise injustice everywhere. You understand the lessons of karma well, recognizing how the smallest action or thought can cause the grandest of changes. Your passion for justice on a universal level is equal only to your need to maintain equilibrium on the personal level. It’s important that Justice personality types take time to regularly realign themselves, rejuvenate and rejoice.
At best: Need for better inner balance. Time for work and action. Balancing health habits. Need to discriminate as to what is best for the self. Need to create one's own joy. Taking responsibility for one's actions and relationships. Looking at another side of an issue. Looking at the pros and cons. Need to cut away unnecessary baggage. Affirmation: "By creating greater balance within, I create more joy in my life."
At worst: Injustice, inequality. Legal complications. A biased mind, dishonesty to self and others.

Hermit - Lion El'Johnson/ Alpharius Omegon?
Questions of the spirit drive you to look within yourself to find your way. Though you’re often most content alone, you rarely turn people away who are seriously looking for advice. And they often appear. In their search for truth, you encourage others to look within, just as you try to. You have faith only in what you know from experience – your own and those of others you trust. Gathering your thoughts and building your spirit takes time and patient silence. But it’s well worth it. Despite their solemnity, the Hermit type typically loves life and enjoys a good laugh.
At best: Being introspective; focusing inward; concentrating lesson the senses; needing to understand; searching; going on a personal quest; desiring a new direction; receiving/giving guidance; learning/teaching; seeking solitude; desiring stillness; withdrawing from the world; giving up distractions.
At worst: Hastiness, imprudence, unreasoning caution or fear, emotional immaturity. Withdrawal from one's problems with no constructive plans.

Wheel of Fortune - Chaos/one of the missing primarchs?
Opportunity and new horizons keep your life spinning with regular change and new perspectives. You gather experiences from all walks of life and mold them into new prospects for your future. Creative communication and a willingness to move on are integral parts of your personality. Getting stuck in a rut drives you crazy, and if you ever feel trapped, the faster you shake things up the better. The world never stops, and neither can you. Wheel of Fortune types expect good fortune to come their way, and it usually does.
At Best; Cycles of life. Need to be centred. Faith and trust in the adjusting power of nature which rules all life. Need to focus on goals and aims. Getting a broader perspective. Need to heal. Unity.
At worst; The person resists change, that he/she is trying to stop events from running their course. Luck has deserted you for now. Setbacks will occur. You will reap what you sow.

Strength (Fortitude) - Vulkan/Russ? (the self control and creation aspects make me lean Vulkan here, but Russ certainly has some potential if we consider him to be holding his beast at bay in a warrior-poet sort of way)
You have a fiery nature and yet know how to direct your inner wildness to foster your personal power. Balancing the beast within with an innocent outlook and compassionate wisdom allows you to attain your goals. You have the ability to live with passion, while remaining mentally at peace. Courage and integrity are your gifts when you focus and stay true to your inner wisdom. There’s more power in the gentle touch than in forcing an issue with rage and impetuosity. The Strength personality has a strong lust for life and a particular appreciation for its eternal cycles.
At Best; Higher nature triumphs over material desire. Strength, courage, patience, soft control.
At worst; uncontrolled emotions, passions, self indulgence, temperamental, weakness of morals and/or mind and body. Materialistic nature dominates. Fear of having too much passion. Abuse of power. Lack of harmony in your life.

Hanged Man (40k - The Angel) - Sanguinus (with the revelation of the Imperial Tarot referring to it as The Angel, my Sanguinus thought solidifies here.)
You’re a person who recognizes the importance of sacrifice and patience. Patience is a virtue, allowing the time necessary to see all sides. Sacrifice is a pre-requisite to enlightenment. Sometimes there’s a higher purpose than our immediate selves, and you are particularly good at seeing it. When you take your time and look at things from different perspectives, you’re able to discover your true path. Watch carefully and you always know when the time is finally right to act. The Hanged Man personality feels most comfortable when they manage to align their higher principles with their mental attitudes and physical behaviours.
At best; Faith. Reversal of thinking. Heart about head. Escapism or inspiration. Letting go. Spiritual breakthrough. Looking at things from another viewpoint. Need to relax. Dreaminess. Unreality.
At worst; Preoccupied with yourself. Stop it. Resistance to spiritual teachings. Arrogance. Efforts on projects are wasted. Loss of something you want or need.

Death - Mortarion (Manchu's affirmation solidifies my Mortarion thought here)
Transformation and renewal is natural to you, not something to be avoided or frightened of. You recognize the importance of letting go of elements in your life that are no longer useful, or hold you back from the future you’re trying to create. New opportunities can only be realized when the clutter from the past is cleared. You are especially adept at moving forward when the time comes. Holding on to the past, or wallowing in the loss of times gone by will only stagnate your inner growth. The Death personality is aware that the constant cycle of death and rebirth is nothing less than life itself. One is not possible without the other.
At best; Getting to basics, Change, Transition
At worst; Temporary, stagnation, decay.

Temperance (40k - Humanity) - Jaghaitai Khan/Vulkan?
Internal balance or the struggle towards it is integral to your personality. You strive for harmony between your emotional/spiritual and physical/mental self. Sometimes this is a difficult but discipline and self-control teaches you to blend these opposites to create a beautiful whole. You’re able to bring the lessons from the past to the present in new and innovative ways. The Temperance personality is especially attuned to the messages of the divine and at their best serve as bridges between the spirit and earthly plains. Life flows most smoothly when you pay attention to your soul’s voice and the Temperance personality can be especially adept at doing so. An explorer and a traveler, Temperance will love activity and adventure. He is an idealistic crusader who will tend to fight for the underdog with enthusiasm and good judgment. A quick thinker, he prefers to get straight to the heart of problems with a sharp, calculated strike. However he may tend to overlook finer details, or be inadvertently tactless in his straightforward truthfulness. While strongly idealistic he is also adaptable and always interested in new ideas.
At best, swift, precise, idealistic, enthusiastic, strong-willed, honest and adventurous.
At worst, quick tempered, tactless, rebellious, and oblivious to danger or criticism.

Devil - Perturabo
Intense and at times obsessive, when you focus on something you keep at till its done. You’re more concerned with what you can see and touch than any airy-fairy theories. And you don’t have a lot of patience for those that don’t want to get down and dirty when the time is right. But when you play, you play hard, and no one likes to laugh at how crazy we all are more than you. To the Devil personality, nothing is taboo. As far as you’re concerned, people can do what they will, but they should do it like they mean it. Persevering, hard-working and patient, the Devil will pursue a goal with methodical, single minded determination. He is likely feel great pressure of responsibility, partly because he so readily accepts it. Because of this he can start to act put-upon and be a bit of a martyr. Underneath a modest exterior he is quite ambitious, but towards realistic and practical goals. He is great builder, and often involved with constructing codes of behavior as well as lasting physical monuments. He can become obsessed with limitations, ironically both enforcing them ruthlessly and hating the pressure they put him under. This paradox in his nature often leads to great discontent.
At best, responsible, hard-working, methodical, practical, constructive and patient.
At worst, suspicious, tense, frustrated, cold, rigid and demanding.

Tower (40k - War) - Angron
Try as you might to keep the world structured and steady, it always seems to tumble down around you. Just as you mortar that last brick in place, lightening strikes and you’re starting it all again. Or maybe it's you that's shaking things up or acting as a lightening rod to the crazy world around you. There are few people more able to withstand the storm than those born with the Tower as their symbol. Your strength and fortitude is enormous, especially when the going gets tough. Experience has taught you that nothing lasts forever, regardless of how permanent it might appear. And anyway, sometimes the walls become more a prison than a shelter. The Tower personality knows this well and lets change happen when it needs to, though sometimes they might need a little nudge. An unstoppable force, and in danger of not being much else. The Tower has a tendency to act, and act in the extreme, before he thinks. Bellicose, with a permanently simmering temper when not in action, punctuated by violent outbursts if he feels in any way wronged or is simply unable to expend his excess energy for whatever reason. He has a tendency to take things very personally, and may conjure up imagined insults out of any unfortunate turn of phrase. He himself forcefully speaks his mind, regardless of any mitigating factor. While this often causes trouble, sometimes it is just what is needed.
At best; Force for change, breaker of chains, unconstrained energy
At worst, unrestrained and wantonly violent, unconcerned about who or why they are destroying what is there.

Star - Corax
The Star is likely to be detached, taciturn, and highly intellectual. He is more interested in his plans and methods than their outcome. He is also likely to be highly unconventional, which can lead to both great originality and terrible miscalculations. The future is always a great concern for the Star, and he is a great progressive thinker. However he may become too caught up in planning for the future and neglect what is happening in the present. He may have trouble thinking in terms of individuals; any individual problem is to him a symptom of a wider malaise. He will then set to work on this wider issue, perhaps completely ignoring the original problem. He will identify far better with groups and causes than other people, and may give the impression of liking humanity but not being overly keen on people.
At best, original, brilliant, humanitarian, objective and progressive.
At worst, detached, cold, disinterested in people, over-permissive, elitist, unpredictable and perverse.

Moon - Konrad Curze
A psychic magnet for all sorts of negative emotions, but without any conscious control over the ability. Therefore likely to be plagued by disturbing visions. From this experience of the darkest aspects of humanity he is likely to be very suspicious of contact and of the merits of humans in general. However he is also genuinely perceptive of other's thoughts and motivations. Distrustful of all forms of structure and possibly a bit of an anarchist. He will be very aware of the subjective aspect of truth, which may bring him into conflict with several of his brothers. Highly otherworldly, he probably goes through phases of deep melancholia, and always seems rather trapped in his own dreams or more likely, nightmares. He has a self-sacrificing nature that easily slips into self-abusive martyrdom and may try to take all work and blame for failure on himself. His methods will be unorthodox and indirect, and also neblous and difficult to pin down which makes them very difficult to analyse or attack. He will probably work best alone, and may shun command or even any company.
At best, perceptive, inspired, and highly effective through unusual methods.
At worst, paranoid to the point of hysteria or madness, unable to connect to reality, melancholic and fatalistic.

Sun - Rogal Dorn/Guilliman?
Strong, warm and unshakable, with a strong sense of purpose in forging and maintaining identity. While he is quite able to show flexibility in his approach, in nature he is stable, balanced and well-rounded. Due to this he may become a neutral but exemplary point of comparision, and must be careful not to let this go to his head. He tends to be frank and honest, which can come off as tactlessness if he is not careful. A good advisor and very supportive unless he believes the wrong course of action is being taken, in which case he will stand firm against it. Also very self-sufficient, rarely needing input be not outright rejecting it when offered. Might be called into a central role, though this will detach him from the main areas of action. May go through extremely dark times, but will always emerge on the other side.
At best, strong, stable, honest, and supportive.
At worst, prideful, self-centred, stubborn, aloof and detached.

Judgment - Leman Russ/Lion El'Johnson (I'm liking Russ more and more here)
An extremely intense character, energetic and passionate. He is likely to a be a strong individualist, doing his own thing regardless of the opinions of others. He does not however break rules or go against others wishes just for the sake of it. He works from his instincts, and may on occasion have trouble justifying his actions, even to himself, beyond "it just feels like the right thing to do". These instincts will rarely lead him astray, and mistakes are far more likely to come from outside interference. Others depend on his straightforward truthfulness. He is likely to be highly direct and honest, disliking subterfuge and hidden agendas.
At best, unhesitating, definite, revolutionary and with flawless instincts.
At worst, rash, extreme, violent, hot-tempered, moody, and uncontrollable.

World - (something that will never happen for GW)
Due to the way the numerology of the Tarot works - this card has an identical personality to The Fool.


More food for thought,
Thor

Just to be clear, I came up with those 40k names myself. I looked through the DH books for the Imperial Tarot names, but they are not listed. I can't imagine they'd be elsewhere (although I haven't read the Ravenor novels). More comments on the actual subject at hand soon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Abbreviated List (to make it more clear where we agree so far, Thor) follows.

Key:
Manchu's pick
Thor's pick
Agreed

The Fool: Horus, Emperor
The Magician (The Psyker): Magnus the Red
The High Priestess (The Fanatic[?]): Lorgar
The Empress (The Golden Throne[?]): Fulgrim, Rogal Dorn
The Emperor (Imperator): The Emperor, Horus
The Hierophant (needs a better name): Lorgar, Fulgrim
The Lovers (The Longing[?]): Alpharius Omegon, the missing primarchs
The Chariot: Roboute Guilliman, Jaghatai Khan
Strength: Vulkan, Leman Russ
The Hermit: Lion El'Jonson, Alpharius Omegon
The Wheel of Fortune: one of the missing primarchs, the Warp
Justice: Ferrus Mannus
The Hanged Man: Horus, Roboute Guilliman, Sanguinius
Death: Mortarion
Temperance (Humanity[?]): Jaghatai Khan, Vulkan
The Devil: Perturabo
The Tower (War[?]): Angron
The Star: Corax
The Moon: Konrad Curze
The Sun: Rogal Dorn, Roboute Guilliman
Judgment: Leman Russ, Lion El'Jonson
The World: Terra/the Galaxy

Our goal is that all of them are eventually green. Let me know if I misrepresented you here. We might consider that the major arcana are more complex than a one-for-one set. The Emperor inverted, for example, is Horus. What if each card were imagined to represent an event, a meeting of personalities and circumstances? In which case, the Emperor card--again, for example--would represent the Great Crusade and, when inverted, the Heresy as exemplified by the personalities of the Emperor and Horus.

Some commentary:

Empress--I guess I have always thought of that card representing care at best and obsession at worst rather than diplomacy/melodrama.
The Chariot--Guilliman does not capture the sense of movement that this card indicates.
Judgment--Russ may be associated with vikings and so also Ragnarok but his own story is not about judgment. That is the saga of the Lion and his Angels.

There's a very good thread about this on the Black Library forums: http://forum.blpublishing.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=403

Very interesting take on it.

Anguipes = Thor665?

I ask because the BL Forums thread and Thor's ideas seem to rely on the same interpretation of (i.e., the same book about) the Tarot. It would seem to me to be a mistake to get bogged down, as the posters over at BL did, in all of the propositions of a singular interpretation. For example, the astrological correspondence seems overly precise (Crowley's approach, no?). And, in any event, it does not correspond properly with the canonical identification of Horus with Sagittarius.

I really don't like the idea of having a card for each of the missing primarchs. The BL thread confirms my unease, given its rampant speculation about what the respective cards suggest about the lost ones. I don't think this exercise is about finding out more about the primarchs from the tarot meanings (or rather, one interpretation of them) because the RT and GW and BL fellows who made them up probably didn't rely on the tarot in constructing their personalities.

dcye wrote:There's a very good thread about this on the Black Library forums: http://forum.blpublishing.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=403

Very interesting take on it.

Awesome find! It makes me a little sad that I'm not the most beautiful and unique snowflake in the galaxy for thinking of this, but these guys have already done a massive amount of work on it, which saves me, and also have done some work that I don't even know enough about Tarot to have done. Awesome!


Abbreviated List (now including Black Library thoughts)

Key:
Manchu's pick
Thor's pick
Agreed
Black Library

The Fool: Horus, Emperor Emperor
The Magician (The Psyker): Magnus the Red Magnus the Red
The High Priestess (The Fanatic[?]): Lorgar missing primarch
The Empress (The Golden Throne[?]): Fulgrim, Rogal Dorn Fulgrim
The Emperor (Imperator): The Emperor, Horus Horus
The Hierophant (needs a better name): Lorgar, Fulgrim Lorgar
The Lovers (The Longing[?]): Alpharius Omegon, the missing primarchs Alpharius Omegon
The Chariot: Roboute Guilliman, Jaghatai Khan Roboute Guilliman
Strength: Vulkan, Leman Russ Vulkan
The Hermit: Lion El'Jonson, Alpharius Omegon Lion El'Jonson
The Wheel of Fortune: one of the missing primarchs, the Warp
Justice: Ferrus Mannus
The Hanged Man: Sanguinius (as stated earlier you'd been convincing me of Sangy here, BL concurs, I think this is a lock)
Death: Mortarion
Temperance (Humanity[?]): Jaghatai Khan, Vulkan Jaghatai Khan (Oddly enough I think as Sagittarius the fluff states this as Horus)
The Devil: Perturabo
The Tower (War[?]): Angron
The Star: Corax
The Moon: Konrad Curze
The Sun: Rogal Dorn, Roboute Guilliman Rogal Dorn
Judgment: Leman Russ, Lion El'Jonson Leman Russ
The World: Terra/the Galaxy The Imperium



Some commentary and replies to your commentary:

The Black Library folks also see The Emperor as likely The Fool card. I like certain aspects of this and dislike others. My biggest feeling in favor of this thought would be that it more neatly encapsulates the concept of the 20 constellations and their connection to the major arcana all being directly connected to a primarch. After all, what sparked this line of thought was the Emperor's quote that each primarch had a connected astrological sign.

I like the thought of The Priestess as a missing primarch, at the very least I do agree with you that the next best fit is Lorgar - but I still think he makes more sense as The Hierophant.

The Black Library folks continue to cement my thought of Alpha/Omega as Lovers. It keeps to the 20 primarchs=20 constellations=20 Tarot vein. I take it your thought is they become combined because theoretically whatever struck them from the records intertwined their fates?

Guilliman for the Chariot still makes sense to me, and our disagreement on this one seems to be about what the card represents. For you it is movement, and for me it is the solidity and change aspects. The Chariot usually represents movement insomuch as it brings change, and represents a solid base between two disparate pulls of the sun and moon. I feel it's Guilliman insomuch as he was a bringer of change and offered stability in troubled times and saw the purpose of where he would take the change. What's your read for Khan?

Could you explain your thoughts on Temperance?

Empress--I guess I have always thought of that card representing care at best and obsession at worst rather than diplomacy/melodrama.

Friendly and open with a dark side towards obsession and being overwraught. I think we are agreeing upon the basic premise of the card (just with different words) The Emperess has some potent artistic/music connection and has the beauty touch of Venus which is why I feel it fits for the artistic/beautiful melodramatic/vain Fu;grim over the staunch meat and potatoes Dorn.

Judgment--Russ may be associated with vikings and so also Ragnarok but his own story is not about judgment. That is the saga of the Lion and his Angels.

The Raganarok connection has less to do with my choice then the connectivity of fire, brash emotions, and barely restrained animalistic urges, which I don't see from the Angels' primarch. I do like the thought of Russ to the Leo controlled Strength - but honestly the cat to dog connection seems to be my biggest hangup there. Also Strength has certain creation/blacksmith connections which I don't feel fit Russ. Did he ever do any crafting? Metalwork is a lauded profession for many Norse heroes so there might be something there for Russ.

We might consider that the major arcana are more complex than a one-for-one set. The Emperor inverted, for example, is Horus. What if each card were imagined to represent an event, a meeting of personalities and circumstances? In which case, the Emperor card--again, for example--would represent the Great Crusade and, when inverted, the Heresy as exemplified by the personalities of the Emperor and Horus.

Wow, cool thought! (a lot of work, but cool thought). This has some interesting thoughts - after all, if Horus or The Emperor is represented by the Emperor card, which is a card that can signify war with purpose then they both become linked to the Crusade/Heresy upright and inversion connection for the card. Very cool!

I'll try to plug my Gulliman as Chariot thought by pointing out it can stand for a unified goal (Codex) which could arise out of the inverted chaos (the post Heresy disorder and weakness). This thought bears some consideration, I'll see if I can come up with some others.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Manchu wrote:Anguipes = Thor665?

I ask because the BL Forums thread and Thor's ideas seem to rely on the same interpretation of (i.e., the same book about) the Tarot. It would seem to me to be a mistake to get bogged down, as the posters over at BL did, in all of the propositions of a singular interpretation. For example, the astrological correspondence seems overly precise (Crowley's approach, no?). And, in any event, it does not correspond properly with the canonical identification of Horus with Sagittarius.

Perhaps (well, for the connection of us using the same sources). I use Rider Waite's interpretations (which I'm pretty sure are the most popular) as well as a Tarot book for the Witch Tarot deck and Seventy-Eight Degrees of Wisdom. I also used the unstoppable resource that is Google search. There are a lot of sections we're clearly quoting out of the same source (Waite in particular which I have basically been copy/pasting) though I'm curious to know where they're referencing some of the elemental crosses and their connections.

We must remember that the Tarot cards are read as an interpretation, and that different readers will skew the meanings of each based on their life experiences.

the whole judgement as Russ or Lion is actually a pretty good debate, depending on where you find your information on the card it may either point to Russ or the lion, for example:

Judgment ----- Rebirth ----- Inner Calling ----- Absolution
Restart ----- Accepting past mistakes/actions ----- Release
Forgiveness ----- End of repression ----- Reconciliation ----- Renewal
Decision ----- Salvation ----- New beginning ----- Hope ----- Redemption

this seems to point more to the lion, but

An extremely intense character, energetic and passionate. He is likely to a be a strong individualist, doing his own thing regardless of the opinions of others. He does not however break rules or go against others wishes just for the sake of it. He works from his instincts, and may on occasion have trouble justifying his actions, even to himself, beyond "it just feels like the right thing to do". These instincts will rarely lead him astray, and mistakes are far more likely to come from outside interference. Others depend on his straightforward truthfulness. He is likely to be highly direct and honest, disliking subterfuge and hidden agendas.
At best, unhesitating, definite, revolutionary and with flawless instincts.
At worst, rash, extreme, violent, hot-tempered, moody, and uncontrollable.

seems to point more to Russ.

And this is also mirrored in the rivalry between Russ and Lion.

As I go over all the information myself, with my own limited knowledge of the Tarot, I am more inclined to agree with Manchu's interpretation. However, I do think that Russ could very well fit the role of Judgement, simply from Thors description and the Wolftime as Ragnarok, his returning hails the revival of the Emporer, and when the Emporer returns it will begin the time of Judgement

Demogerg wrote:We must remember that the Tarot cards are read as an interpretation, and that different readers will skew the meanings of each based on their life experiences.

the whole judgement as Russ or Lion is actually a pretty good debate, depending on where you find your information on the card it may either point to Russ or the lion,

That's an interesting point to bring up about the rivalry, often people who are very similar can have the worst issues between them (like Horus and The Emperor and their competition over card 3)

I think why Manchu and I disagree over this card is I'm focusing on some of the emotional takes of the card and he's focusing on the Judgment aspect. Basically a biblical vs. astrological interpretation of the card (and as you noted both are correct in their own way). I think I still stand by the element of fire being an improper match for the Lion, but if one was to really talk about a final arrival with judgment/Ragnarock overtones I would tend to vote Lion over Russ, because all the Wolf promised was to return for the battle (and there's no way Russ would want to miss that dust up) but El'Johnson's story clearly hints of him as more of a herald of such times (and Judgement is oft pictured as the angel blowing the horn that sounds the End of Days).

true, but Russ left to find the Tree of Life to revive the Emporer, and his revival will also herald the end of days.

http://menducia.atspace.com/primarchs/I.html

More info regarding this. Personally find this sort of thing very intriguing. I know this is a couple of months old but personally I don't feel a new thread was needed. Apologies if so.

This is welcome necromancy, in my opinion. Thanks for the link but I believe we've already been over it with Thor agreeing with it far more than I do. I think that Thor sticks more closely to the Rider-Waite interpretation whereas I would like to see an independent MIperial tarot for fluff purposes rather than a 40k-themed tarot deck.

Back from the grave, eh?

I agree - a specific and full Imperial Tarot deck would be awesome and definitely drag some bucks out of my pockets. Honestly it seems strange they've never bothered to really delve into the subject.

If you think about, GW has only seemed eager to effectively exploit their IP through outside companies in the recent past (DoW, Dark Heresy, etc) so we might eventually see such a product. In other words, I don't think it will be a Black Library publication in any case.

K, so i went digging, and I found the names of thew Imperial Tarot cards, hope this helps a bit. you can also find the descriptions on lexicanum, here: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Imperial_Tarot

High Priest
Emperor / The God-Emperor*1
Harlequin (of Discordia)
Inquisitor (of Mandatio)
Assassin (of Adeptio)
Space Marine
Squat
Daemon (Major Arcana)
Hulk (Major Arcana)
Warped Renegade (of Discordia)
Galaxy (Major Arcana)
Star (Major Arcana)
Knight (of Mandatio)
Sword
Emperor's Throne
Eye of Horus
Great Hoste
Shattered World
Galactic Lens
The Great Eye*1
The Despoiler*1

I like Sanguinius as the High Priestess. He was quiet and serene, known to possess foresight, and was commonly held to be the most virtuous primarch. Contrast this with the rage issues that began to surface among his legion following the fight at Signus, and ultimately Terra, and you see an overabundance of passion, physical ardour, and the sorts of vanity and selfishness that would lead high ranking BA's to wear golden masks rather than display scars.

I also like Dorn as Temperance since he served as the Emperor's bridge and mouthpiece during the Heresy. He also is said to have had an issue with blunt honesty. Also, his marines certainly had a crusader streak to them, and are one of the only legions to have been fleet based from the very beginning - lending to the exploration and travel element. After the Emp's death, when Dorn was unbalanced (inverted) he was rash, quick tempered, and relatively oblivious to the danger of both keeping his legion whole and of charging headlong into the Iron Cage.

Perturabo evil... good!

@Chaosgyro: Yes, that's what I meant by trying to create a 40k themed deck. We could try and figure out which character best fits the supposed meaning but I'd rather emphasize the meaning of the character/fluff itself.

Tis funny cause in one of the HH books I read Kurze IIRC was also playing with tarot cards.. They cant of back then had eye of horus eh?

Really interesting thread.

It's hard enough trying to find details of the "modern" tarot cards for 40k, I don't want to think how hard it would be to figure out popular card decks for each time period. Even assuming that the structure remained the same over time and just the iconography changed, think about how many popular variants there are in the real world tarot decks.