What Do you want In Codex: CSM 5th edition?

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**Lord-Loss**

A thread discussing what we want in CSM codex 5th edition.

I want legion rules, none crazy dreads, plague marines should get a 3+ FNP, khorne berzerkers need rending, thousand son need to be replaced with a better tzeench cult troop, some LR variations, vehicles which are unique to chaos, cheaper marks, better special characters, better phkyic(spel?)powers.

**Mekboy**

Woah, 3+ FNP on plague marines would be crazy.

Anyway, I'd like to see decent possessed and spawn, rules for individual legios or even just the ability to upgrade characters to one of the 4 main legions.

**jp400**

Things that I feel need to be done:

* Return of the Khorn Chainax
* Remove S&P from Thousand Sons
* MOT on termies give 3+ Inv Save to compete with the absurd Stormshield 3+.
* Dreads reworked
* Spawn reworked
* Possessed reworked
* Abby Points reduced
* More Upgrade options for Chaos Landraiders and increased transport space.
* Lash Limit 0-1 per army
* Legion Specific Upgrades/rules
* Bring back all the old deamons (Greater and lesser)
* Bring back Mutations/Gifts of Chaos
* Bring back the flavor/customability

Just a few off the top of my head.

**Airmaniac**

Plague Marines are strong enough as they are. I don't share your opinion on the strength of the Chaos Psychic Power, Lash of Submission and Warptime are two extremely potent spells.

Thousand Sons could indeed use a points drop (or become stronger), but I don't think they should remove them entirely.

**JD21290**

How about we drop this current thing they call a dex and go back to the previous one?
you know, where you had legions, daemons had a use, the rules were great, the army worked well.

**jp400**

JD21290 wrote:How about we drop this current thing they call a dex and go back to the previous one?
you know, where you had legions, daemons had a use, the rules were great, the army worked well.

I agree with this.

Just do a minor tweak to prices in the old one and update the rules to flow with 5th Ed and Bam! Every Chaos player is happy.

**Lord-Loss**

I think CSM needs to be re-worked competely for 5th edition.

Plague marines need to be more broken realy, make then 25points a peice and give them 3+ FNP.

Another thing I want is some weapons that only CSM can have and Noise marines need a 6+ FNP cause there dirty bitchs getting horny over pain.

**Vladsimpaler**

Lord-Loss wrote:

Plague marines need to be more broken realy, make then 25points a peice and give them 3+ FNP.

More broken? As in, more broken then they already are? This is just stupid and makes you look bad, you know that right?

Is it too much to ask for a codex where everything is good? Apparently so in your line of thinking.

**Lord-Loss**

Every codex has that broken unit, the best chaos got is Oblits.

Eldar got seer council, Space marines have thunder hammer termies, Guard got marbo.

**Uriels_Flame**

Here is my obligatory:

Maybe instead of two codex, Daemons and CSM should be in one dex?

I'm also on board for CSM 3.5 being brought to CSM 5.0.

I'll even throw in for LatD.

**Vladsimpaler**

Lord-Loss wrote:Every codex has that broken unit, the best chaos got is Oblits.

Eldar got seer council, Space marines have thunder hammer termies, Guard got marbo.

And you don't want to stop that cycle at all, do you? That's just sad. Just because every codex has one doesn't mean that's it's justified.

The most broken Chaos has is the Lash Prince.

You thinking that Marbo is broken is fairly confusing.

Thunder hammer Terminators aren't that good, you just kill them all before they get into assault or kill them before they get to hit. Not that hard with Howling Banshees.

If you just want to create another degenerate codex with tons of broken stuff then that's just disappointing.

Well I will get off of my

now.

**jp400**

Lets look at this in another light...

Since several GW updates have been on par with what was suggested on Dakka.... Its plain to see that they do visit (at least) these forums to get a feel on how the public currently views the dex.

Would it really be SO hard to make a Chaos Dex that is both 3.5, Includes LATD, and God Specific rules plus Red Coursairs (or however its spelled)???

Espically since Space Marines are the only race these days that seem worthy enough for Codex Spinoff mini-dex's... (Space Puppies, Black Templar, ect ect)

It makes perfect sense and 1 person working over the corse of a month or two could do this.

Are we asking for a broken dex thats nothing but overpowered crap? No. What we are asking is for a codex thats full of Balance, Options, Flavor and fluff. Thats not asking for much.

**Uriels_Flame**

LL - Can you troll your own thread?

Red Corsairs/Red Scorpions = nice new toys, same ol' marines.

Although the thought of having CSM summon actual flamers would be sweet. . .

Was the current CSM codex released prior to or during 5th?

**jp400**

Current=Prior 5th ed if I remember right... but very close. As in when they were makeing it they most likely had 5th edition in the playtesting area.

**Lord-Loss**

Vlad Codex:CSM 5th edition will need to be able to compete well in tourneys vs other 5th codexs.

Plague marines are not broken but a 3+ would make them very very good. But with legion rules you wouldnt be able to take lash Princes with plague marines, so each factions cult troop will need to be strenghed to make up for this.

**tiekwando**

I may be wrong about this but I have found PMs to be pretty good at their current state, I dont think they need to really be altered. If they need a boost i think the way it was in legions with the 7 man squad gets free Aspiring Champ would give them a boost. But as a deathwing player I hate the fact my SS are a 4++ save in hth while Salamanders and Ultrasmurfs apparently worked together on theirs. So I hate having two sets of rules for a single model.

**Lordhat**

Yo mamma

**Jacksonhighlander**

Always thought it'd be cool to see chaos beable to corrupt IG and use some of their stuff. Kinda like how Inquisition can have allies with other imperial forces.

**jp400**

Jacksonhighlander wrote:Always thought it'd be cool to see chaos beable to corrupt IG and use some of their stuff. Kinda like how Inquisition can have allies with other imperial forces.

LATD.......

**Horst**

sacred number squads get free champions.

nurgle marines should have bolters that have poison rounds (wound on a 4+) strikes me as odd how the plague god doesn't let his troops really spread plagues.

khorne berserkers should have chainfists available as options.

obliterators should be toughness 5, 4+ invulnerable, 2 wounds. current weapon loadout is fine.

**darkkt**

I would like to see more variants of the chaos vehicles - but more chaosy options (like giving vehicles marks like we used to).

Fast options need a few tweaks - or just a couple of points off. It would also be a great place for some daemons/LaTD options (discs of tzeen? Chaos Sentinels?).

DP's need to be able to take more wargear - at a minimum a Deamon weapon. (oh yeah, Khorne DW needs a change).

I would not like to see it move away from space marine focus however, I like the 'flavour' of the current codex - its just a little too simple. The old codex was criticised because it had a lot of wargear that was 'invisible' and was way complex. They shot too far on the side of simplification this time, they need to come some of the way back, but not all the way.

Oh yeah - some characters who provide bonuses to their units.

**skkipper**

Better HQ's: current Hq's are a little weak. a demon prince able to take a demon weapon would be a good start. a two wound hq choice would be good. lords need to get the real bonus's for the mark. so feel no pain and +1 toughness for nurgle and +1 ws +1 attack and furious charge for khorne. undivided be a mix of all 4 +1 toughness +1 attack +1 int +1 inv save.

elites:
again marks = not icons. so marked chosen become chosen berzerkers.
possessed abiltities are rolled before battle + real marks
dreadnaughts shoot closest enemy unit if no enemies they shoot friendlies
termis get real marks again.

troops
csm + real marks done

fast
raptors and bikers can get real marks
spawn gets a 5+ inv and marks

heavy
defiler get boosted to to grinder AV
obilts ok as they are
havocs need something?
mutated hull would be nice

allies
1 hq 1 elite 3 troops 1 fast 1 heavy from the demon book.

**Caffran9**

Lord-Loss wrote:Vlad Codex:CSM 5th edition will need to be able to compete well in tourneys vs other 5th codexs.

Plague marines are not broken but a 3+ would make them very very good. But with legion rules you wouldnt be able to take lash Princes with plague marines, so each factions cult troop will need to be strenghed to make up for this.

the current CSM book is very competitive. I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

Also, Plague Marines are already phenominal. There is absolutely no reason what so ever that they should become even better. If ANYTHING, the current Plague Marines should be used as the benchmark for updating units like Thousand Sons so that they are more useful and points efficient.

**jp400**

Add the following to my list:

* Take away the stupid on a 1 the Deamon weapons attacks the user Bs.... (at least on characters like Abaddon)
* Unit God Specific Numbers that if taken will give you a free Champion since we dont get free weapon upgrades like SM do
* Bring all special character costs more in line with recent codex prices (aka lower most of them)
* Better Psychic Defence (hood?)
* More ranged AT options
* Some type of IFV.... (razorbacks?)
* Option to take skill upgrades for Troops. After all they have been fighting for how many thousands of years?
* No "roll the dice before each game to find out what skill you have" Bs

**H.B.M.C.**

jp400 wrote:* Lash Limit 0-1 per army

Arbitrary limits are a bad way to write rules. If something is overpowered like Lash then you can do a few things:

1. Increase its cost.
2. Decrease its ability.
3. Remove it completely.

Never a combination of those though (reducing ability while increasing cost is what GW does, and it makes for gakky units). In the case of Lash, the best option is removing it completely. Limiting it to 0-1 makes about about as much sense as the 0-1 limit on Tyrant Wings. In other words it doesn't.

**jp400**

Good Point HBMC.

**Uriels_Flame**

Since we're in the proposed rules:

Should Marked units only be able to summon daemons of their mark?

And if you go with MoCU, what daemons should you be able to summon?

**FITZZ**

Uriels_Flame wrote:Since we're in the proposed rules:

Should Marked units only be able to summon daemons of their mark?

And if you go with MoCU, what daemons should you be able to summon?

MoCu= ability to summon any daemons.
Marked units summon daemons of their mark.
IMO that's how it should be.
As for what I'd like to see in codex:CSM 5th ed, Legion list,god specific deamons,god specific greater deamons.

**Lord-Loss**

If we get legion rules in C:CSM 5th edition then people cant take Lash Princes with Plague marines, they cant mix and match gods to create the most effective build.

That means that each cult troop needs to get a bit better.
Basically each god needs to be able to play competitively.

Khorne marks should give WS +1 and furious charge, nurgle gives FNP etc.

But will that be enough to make each faction competitive enough for tourney play?

Question: Basically how are people meant to make competitive chaos lists without mixing gods?

Answer: Make each Cult troop a bit better and add cultist and some legion persific vehicles.

**Lord-Loss**

If we get legion rules in C:CSM 5th edition then people cant take Lash Princes with Plague marines, they cant mix and match gods to create the most effective build.

That means that each cult troop needs to get a bit better.
Basically each god needs to be able to play competitively.

Khorne marks should give WS +1 and furious charge, nurgle gives FNP etc.

But will that be enough to make each faction competitive enough for tourney play?

Question: Basically how are people meant to make competitive chaos lists without mixing gods?

Answer: Make each Cult troop a bit better and add cultist and some legion persific vehicles.