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FOR THIS POLL, PLEASE ANSWER HOW YOU CHOOSE TO PLAY THE GAME, NOT NECESSARILY WHAT THE RULES AS WRITTEN (RAW) SAY.

Feel free to post how and why you voted, but please DO NOT ENGAGE OTHERS IN DISCUSSIONS/ARGUMENTS ABOUT WHAT YOU THINK THE RULES SAY. Please create a separate thread if you feel the urge to have this kind of discussion.



The Imperial Guard 'Astropath' Regimental Advisor Telepathic Relay special rule (IG codex, pg 31) says: "While the Astropath is alive, you add 1 to any of your reserve rolls. In addition, if any of your units arrive using the outflank rule, you can re-roll the the dice used to determine which board edge these squads arrives from."


The Imperial Guard 'Officer of the Fleet' Regimental Advisor Intercept Rserves special rule (IG codex, pg 31) says: "Whilst the Officer of the Fleet is alive, your opponent must subtract 1 from all of his reserve rolls. In addition, if any enemy units arrive using the outflank rule, you may choose to make your opponent re-roll the dice used to dtermine which board edge these squads arrives from."




QUESTION: Do you play that the 'Telepathic Relay' and 'Intercept Reserves' special rules are in effect even when the Astropath and/or Officer of the Fleet is off the table in Reserves?



OPTION A. Yes, I play that these special rules ARE IN EFFECT even if the models are off the table in Reserves.


OPTION B. No, I play that these special rules are NOT IN EFFECT if these models are in Reserves.


OPTION C. Something else entirely: reply exactly what it is below.

I played and thought B, mostly based on rules like Phermone trail, that actually specifies the model does not need to be on the board.

shrug

I voted A just because it just says they need to be alive.

I voted A because of the alive thing as well. Of course, I also thought they stacked, so maybe alive really means "alive and on the board".

I voted A based on simply what I felt the rules presented in this thread suggested, but in light of other rules which specify that they function when the model is off the board think B might be the better ruling.

In truth, I am somewhat on the fence now, but as a non IG player, would still be prepared to play A if my opponent believed it the correct way.

I voted A..

In addition to what others have said, the reason I think its option A is because of the "..if any of your units arrive using the outflank rule.." which ofcource can include the astropath's unit which implies it can help itself to come out onto the field which lends to the idea of the astropath working whilst not on the table and by extention, the same applies to the Officer of the fleet.

I voted A: Autarch, Lictor, etc. have the same kind of rule set.

A.

The rules do not say that the Astropath nor the OotF must be on the table.

It is the same as the Eldar Autarch and Lictors...as previously mentioned.

I voted A... but the more I think about it...

Have the conditions of 'alive' been met if a unit is in reserve? I mean... if they are in reserve at end of game, they count as casualties...

Alerian wrote:It is the same as the Eldar Autarch and Lictors...as previously mentioned.

Slackermagee wrote:I voted A: Autarch, Lictor, etc. have the same kind of rule set.

I understand we aren't discussing in this thread but I thought I would mention since this was the same road I went down when I first opted for A that both of these models have very specific wording.

The Lictor says "To represent this, each Lictor taken allows the Tyranid player to re-roll one Reserves roll per turn, regardless of whether the Lictor is in play or not."

The Autarch says "While the Autarch is alive, you may choose to add 1 to your rolls for reserves, regardless of whether he is in play or not"

I'm not saying you guys are incorrect, but merely noticed that it appears to be a common for people to believe the rules equate, when there are quite noticable differences. Perhaps Yakface should have even included these in the original post, although maybe he had his reasons not to.

I voted "B"--no. Just say no to cheesy precedents!

Schrodinger's Advisor? it is both alive and dead.

Does anyone have the exact quote from Eldar autarch rule? I remember people comparing the two.

I voted A... because thats how we've played. The Advisor is not dead until he has been killed (or until the end of the game and he counts as dead if still in reserve). Therefore, if he is not dead, he is alive, and you get +1 to reserve.

The astropath/OotF are both similar to the Autarch but they lack the same level of clarity regarding the model's status.

"while the [whatever] is alive" is just incredibly vague. To my mind that's rather closer to "while the [whatever] is in play" which most people would take to mean "on the table" but is itself actually fairly vague since "in play" is never defined.

As a side note, Improved Comms (which is a similar ability from the old IG codex (re-roll of reserve dice) but has no mention of "in play", "on the table", etc) was FAQ'd to work even whilst in reserve.

A.

Just specifies they have to be alive, NOT on the table as well.

A

All it requires is that they be alive, which means "not yet removed as a casualty"

nosferatu1001 wrote:A

All it requires is that they be alive, which means "not yet removed as a casualty"

I disagreed with this view.

We all know in the gaming world that nothing exists off the table! To me alive means "in play" in context.

I went with B.

Considering both the Autarch and Lictor specifically state that they work when not in play, I believe it is safe to assume that the Advisers, which lack this clause, do not.

The codex stipulates that the advisors must be "alive". they never stipulate that they must be in play.

A strict RAW interpretation forces me to the conclustion that as long as they are "alive" their effects are in play, whether they are on the table or not.

Until they are a casualty, they are alive, just at any other unit in the game. Otherwise, we are forced to declare all units in reserve as "not alive", thus forceing "tableing" and Necron phaseout, due to units in reserve, which is absurd.

We can't have it both ways, either units in reserve are "alive" or they are not.

Units in reserve are neither Alive nor casualties. They are in reserve.

Gwar! wrote:Units in reserve are neither Alive nor casualties. They are in reserve.

I would very much like to see the RAW that defines "alive", and how it does not apply to units in reserve, as it would settle this whole mess

IG advisers are never alive because they are made of plastic.

I think it's not really clear in any case. The guy who wrote the codex is great at writing an army list, but bad at writing rules.

I'll play it that if the officers are in reserves their bonuses are applied, because they are not yet "dead".

Alerian wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Units in reserve are neither Alive nor casualties. They are in reserve.

I would very much like to see the RAW that defines "alive", and how it does not apply to units in reserve, as it would settle this whole mess

Exactly, there is no RaW to define what Alive means. Which means that the Rule cannot work at all because they are made of plastic and not alive nor do they count as alive.

I think the only stipulation (because it ISN'T clear in RaW) is how models are counted at end game, if in reserve. Because that is the only place it is mentioned. In this case, they don't fit the 'alive' trigger.

I personally go with B. I used to think A because of "Alive" and how other models had similar rules.

However, those rules make a clear distinction that they get to be in efect when off the table. With that being said in several locations, id think the assumption would be that the "normal" state of rules granted by models off the table would be that they do not work while off table.

So again, B is what I go with.

Voted for 'B', how is the officer of the fleet and astropath going to use their resources when they're not even at the battlefield?

Gwar! wrote:Units in reserve are neither Alive nor casualties. They are in reserve.

Gwar!...seriously. Both this thread and the other thread that have the exact same title, specifically state NOT to engage other in arguements/discussions.

Stop. I appreciate your rules advice, and your strong opinions on the rules, but in this case you are violating the thread's "RAW".

I voted for option B. Since the special rules do not dictate that it can be used from off the table, there is no reason to allow it.

Yes, I can recall specific wording for this. Like "While xxxxx is "ON THE TABLE". Vs. while xxxxxx is alive etc..

Harkainos wrote:I voted A... but the more I think about it...

Have the conditions of 'alive' been met if a unit is in reserve? I mean... if they are in reserve at end of game, they count as casualties...

Actually, that is only true of Deep Striking units under the Delayed mishap result. Units in Regular Reserve have no such clause.

I voted A because even in reserve they are alive, and if anything can impact the game while off the table it's assets that only deal with other assets that are also off the table. It makes no less sense that an astropath can guide in a valk faster when the astropath is also off the board.

I would advocate for B because the Advisors do not have the "regardless of whether this unit is in play or not" language of similar reserves-effecting units like Lictors (See "Pheromone Trail", Codex:Tyranids p. 38) and Autarchs (See "Master Strategist", Codex:Eldar p. 29).

"Alive" has no definition that indicates it refers to models in play or otherwise.

40k is a permissive ruleset. Absent a special rule specifically telling us otherwise, only models in play can effect the game. If a rule doesn't tell you you can make use of it while the model is not in play, you can't.

-GK