Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

what do you like or not like about the rules for shooting in whfb?

One of the things I don't like about 40k is that regardless of how much crap is in the way, or how far away the target, your average Guardsman can STILL hit a Grot on a 4+.

I voted yes, I like them more, but I think 40k shooting rules do well for what it's for. I mean, when a Tau railgun has a 72" range, it's supposed to be accurate at great distances. Could they represent that with higher BS or half-distance modifiers like WHFB? Sure, but then an Ork Loota hits things on a 6 further than 24", or with a higher BS to compensate for long-range shooting will obliterate anything within 24".

I said "yes", but that was while going for a sense of realism. It should be pretty hard for a guy with a Lascannon at short-range to miss a Monolith. But instead it's just as likely to hit as sniping a snotling behind cover from across the table.

There are also still things I dislike about Fantasy shooting, though. For instance: Why can my three attack assassin only throw one throwing star a turn? Why does a Sling have a further range than a Short Bow?

Minsc wrote:For instance: Why can my three attack assassin only throw one throwing star a turn?

Under the assumption that you're referring to a Dark Elf Assassin and Rending Stars (as that's the only assassin I can think of with throwing stars), it specifically states 3x Multiple Shots. With BS9, the -1BS for multiple shots is hardly a detriment so there's no reason not to throw all three, especially after adding in a Manbane for added fun.

I voted wrong OOPS!! I meant to click Yes can you edit a poll after a vote has been cast?

Kirbinator wrote:

Minsc wrote:For instance: Why can my three attack assassin only throw one throwing star a turn?

Under the assumption that you're referring to a Dark Elf Assassin and Rending Stars (as that's the only assassin I can think of with throwing stars), it specifically states 3x Multiple Shots. With BS9, the -1BS for multiple shots is hardly a detriment so there's no reason not to throw all three, especially after adding in a Manbane for added fun.

Actually, I was speaking Clan Eshin Assassins.

Minsc wrote:Actually, I was speaking Clan Eshin Assassins.

Ah, glad I prefaced myself, then.

Butt-kicking for goodness!

I think the shooting rules for WFB are fine. Some of the shooting weapons might be a bit cheesy though...

The only thing I dislike in WHFB shooting is that Bows cannot fire in two ranks, as that would make the most sense, and actually make bowmen a viable unit.

But that's a different topic.

Cryonicleech wrote:The only thing I dislike in WHFB shooting is that Bows cannot fire in two ranks, as that would make the most sense, and actually make bowmen a viable unit.

But that's a different topic.

Well... they can fire in two ranks. I know what you mean though... would change things considerably though, if they were marching about and doing it. Two-rank fire as a stand-and-shoot reaction against a unit charging uphill is simulated very well in my opinion, and blocks of archers that elect to shuffle about a the battlefield deserve to get hacked to pieces.

The main problem with 40K shooting is the idea that if one grot steps out from a building, anything shooting at him can potentially wipe out his whole unit - or in a slightly amusing case of wound allocation, every single model except for that particular grot. This is a cover save vs. to-hit penalty argument though, and frankly I think the cover save mechanic used in 40K fits the skirmishing mechanic much better.

Minsc's skewed example of 'a guy with a Lascannon at short-range to miss a Monolith. But instead it's just as likely to hit as sniping a snotling behind cover from across the table' is a very different story if the snotling is not in cover. As it is, he's 50% less likely to hit. Not that snotlings appear as units in 40K... they are generally represented as swarms in WHFB, and if we look at the example of Scarab Swarms in 40K, we see that this property affects shooting in either game.

I voted yes because of the modifiers. I also like the way cover works in WHFB rather than in 40k. It wouldn't be too hard to cross it over to 40k, since some things can have special rules like hand thrown weapons that negates the long range modifier. It should be harder for a lascannon to hit a Grot hiding in ruins than a monolith in front of their face.

Cirronimbus wrote:It should be harder for a lascannon to hit a Grot hiding in ruins than a monolith in front of their face.

It's exactly 50% harder to hit that Grot in cover.

Well... it's not harder to hit the Grot... he just gets his fancy pants cover save. He should get a -2 modifier so BS 3 hits him on a 6+.

Hi all.
I belive that the WH rules suit WHFB better than 40k, because they were written for WHFB!

40k has never has a rule set written specificaly for it.(Only modified WHFB rules.)

40k seems to reduce most resolution to un modified deterministic dice rolls, needing lots more text to explain the abstractions.(Which incresces the chance of poorly defined rules.)

WHFB is not perfect, but is alot more intuitive than 40k ,IMO.

TTFN
Lanrak.

Kirbinator wrote:

Cirronimbus wrote:It should be harder for a lascannon to hit a Grot hiding in ruins than a monolith in front of their face.

It's exactly 50% harder to hit that Grot in cover.

By this logic, a Chaos Knight is 66% harder to hit than an Orc Boy because he has a 1+ armor save. If cover was in addition to armor saves, it would be a 50% decrease in hitting. But it's just a save, that can't even be used alongside a model's regular one.

Minsc wrote:

Kirbinator wrote:

Cirronimbus wrote:It should be harder for a lascannon to hit a Grot hiding in ruins than a monolith in front of their face.

It's exactly 50% harder to hit that Grot in cover.

By this logic, a Chaos Knight is 66% harder to hit than an Orc Boy because he has a 1+ armor save. If cover was in addition to armor saves, it would be a 50% decrease in hitting. But it's just a save, that can't even be used alongside a model's regular one.

Depending on how you're using "hit" - it is true that Chaos Knights are harder to hit than Orc Boys! If you are talking about the game term "to hit" then they are the same difficulty. -But- The whole (to hit -> to wound -> save) system represents a bunch of things happening. In the BRB for the shooting rules (can't quote it exactly I'm at work) it talks about many of the shots that "hit" either glancing off armor, or dealing superficial wounds that are ignored or otherwise not incapacitating the target.

Remember that suffering a wound dones't mean "dead" in fluffy terms either. It means incapacitated, killed, or fleeing. We remove the model from the board not because it's being carried off to the afterlife but because it's no longer relevent to play. Whenever I lose a unit I tell myself that most of them are injured and feeling, but they'll live to fight another day.

In the same way that heavily armored targets are harder to hit that normal targets a cover save in 40K represnts the shots being deflected or absorbed cover. It did not "hit" the intended target. In the "reality" of the game, had it hit that snotling would be nothing but a fine green haze. The cover save represents a shot that was close- but not close enough.

I agree that a snotling across the board should be harder to hit than a monolith right in front of you, I just think that there a bit too harsh, a crazy awesome elfy dude with BS 5 (normally hits on 2+) can apparently only hit a dude leaning against a fence from five yards with a long bow one time out of three. I can do better and I have no formal training.

i voted even because their completely different games. WHFB uses primitive weapons like bows where the effectiveness will be lost over, range say. where 40k is High technology (advance motion detectors, heat signals, infa red) also they use big guns where the effectiveness will carry right to its range limit. The lascannon could hit the grot over the other side of the board if he stops, waits for the Lascannon targeters to pick up the Heat signal, steady himself for the shot and fires. It is a huge weapon and won't deviate from its course very easily

I think that the shooting is fine with the aformentioned archers in two ranks. also the issue with archers in fantasy for me is that you cannot use them as screens effectively. You should be able to charge through a missile screen or have that screen fall back through your ranked infantry without penalty or panic test.

Manfred von Drakken wrote:One of the things I don't like about 40k is that regardless of how much crap is in the way, or how far away the target, your average Guardsman can STILL hit a Grot on a 4+.

Unless he's more than 24" away, or there's cover, an enemy unit, a friendly unit, or a LOS blocking thing in the way.

I do like the 'stand and shoot' option better than 40k's 'hope your shooty unit doesn't get charged' style.

Thought I would pop by and say that both sides have their ups and their downs.

Don't think I can summarise those ups and downs in just a single post. I do however think Warhammer has clearer and more well defined rules that are easier to understand... if harder to learn because there are more basic ones. However it has seemed to take a trend to swinging towards the 40K way of every army needs special rules. More annoying is the fact that it also has slowed to hit and to wound charts just like 40K... but that's another discussion.

So yeah, oh and on another note... High tech does not reduce the difficulty of range, the "fog of war", bad weather etcetc as much as people say it does... High tech equipment is harder to maintain, more things can go wrong and generally its not always as efficient as one might think...

The type 42's in the falklands showed that when the launchers jammed due to salt crystal build up. Or the numerous guided missiles and bombs that have missed...

Shooting 40k:
SM are super strong enhanced by power armor but cant move and fire a Heavy weapon

WHFB:
All ranks should be able to fire and just the front rank.

True perhaps realistically all ranks should fire but this is not to be becasue of simplicity and not to make shooting overpowered.

WHFB shooting is better becasue of hte modifiers etc. makes it more realistic.

I agree too, that WHFB has a better shooting phase because of those modifiers.

just to reiterate my previous point

I agree that a snotling across the board should be harder to hit than a monolith right in front of you, I just think that there a bit too harsh, a crazy awesome elfy dude with BS 5 (normally hits on 2+) can apparently only hit a dude leaning against a fence from five yards with a long bow one time out of three. I can do better and I have no formal training.

One of the only few things I don't like in WHFB shooting is that a model on a single base's line of sight con be blocked by a swarm model on a larger base even though it is nowhere near as tall.

Also I don't like the idea of two ranks being able to fire, but that's mainly because that would make all my skirmishing Waywatchers pointless. (Besides scouting of course)

Minsc wrote:

Kirbinator wrote:

Cirronimbus wrote:It should be harder for a lascannon to hit a Grot hiding in ruins than a monolith in front of their face.

It's exactly 50% harder to hit that Grot in cover.

By this logic, a Chaos Knight is 66% harder to hit than an Orc Boy because he has a 1+ armor save. If cover was in addition to armor saves, it would be a 50% decrease in hitting. But it's just a save, that can't even be used alongside a model's regular one.

Except i think hes saying that the 4+ cover save is an abstraction for the fact that yes you rolled a hit to shooting, but that hit actually hit that pillar the grots poking his weedy lil face out from behind.

BIBBI wrote: I can do better and I have no formal training.

Oh? Have you fought many battles as a conscripted bowman? Sniped many a moving object hidden behind a wall, trembling with the thought that your mortal life was in danger?

Not to tease you, nor do I disagree with you.

FRENCHY147 wrote:
Also I don't like the idea of two ranks being able to fire, but that's mainly because that would make all my skirmishing Waywatchers pointless. (Besides scouting of course)

360 LOS = awesomesauce

Said no only 'cause of the argument over guess range weapons in YMDC right now... I like all the BS modifiers, but 40k is kinda the watered down fantasy in my head anyways so I don't really care. No BS modifiers, no armor save modifiers, no combat res modifiers... Just throw a bunch of dice, yell YAHTZEE and go home. (note, I do/have played 40k, but like fantasy a whole lot more)