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*EDIT #5*

Added a 6th warrior squad and a raider in line with Thor66's advice; took out one Wych in each squad and the plasma grenades on the HQ unit to make it 1849. I hate having to lose the plasma grenades on the Archon, but I can't really find another place to free up the 14 points there.

HQ (338 points)
Archon
-Combat drugs
-Tormentor Helm
-Shadow Field
-Punisher
-Animus Vitae
1x Warrior
5x Incubi
Raider

Troop #1:Raider Squad (105 points)
5 Warriors + 1 Dark Lance
Raider

Troop #2: Raider Squad (105 points)
5 Warriors + 1 Dark Lance
Raider

Troop #3: Raider Squad (105 points)
5 Warriors + 1 Dark Lance
Raider

Troop #4: Raider Squad (105 points)
5 Warriors + 1 Dark Lance
Raider

Troop #5: Raider Squad (105 points)
5 Warriors + 1 Dark Lance
Raider


Troop #6: Raider Squad (105 points)
5 Warriors + 1 Dark Lance
Raider

Elite #1: Wyches (183)
6 Wyches
Succubus + Agonizer
6x Wych weapons
Combat Drugs
Plasma Grenades x6
Raider

Elite #2: Wyches (183)
6 Wyches
Succubus + Agonizer
6x Wych weapons
Combat Drugs
Plasma Grenades x6
Raider

Fast Attack #1: Reaver Jetbikes (95)
Reaver Jetbikes x3
Blasters x2

Heavy #1: Ravager (120)
Disintegrator x3

Heavy #2: Ravager (120)
Disintegrator x3

Heavy #3: Ravager (120)
Disintegrator x3


Does the Succubus in the Wych squad with the agonizer need plasma grenades? I've left them in there to be sure.

Lots of combat drugs lol, just make sure you dont kill yourself >.<

Honestly, the only thing that I could say for this list is to find some agonizers for the wyches or other low S squads, I usually play 1,500 Pts with around the same thing minus a raider squad or two and w/o the jetbikes... All those SM players making you need 5's to wound...

holy raiders.... thats a whole lotta fast moving stuff! You NEED some dark lances tho. I'd say make some of the ravagers into DL's. Stopping SM LR's (that can pop 2 raiders a turn) will be essential. A list like this will make dev squads weep lol, blowing up 1 vehicle a turn...

HQ (309 points)
Archon
2x Warriors
6x Incubi
Torture Helms (+1 attack)
Punishers (+1 strength, power weapon)
2x Blasters (equipped on the warriors)
Shadow Field (for a 2+ invulnerability field)
Combat Drugs
Incubi Master (I don't remember why)
---->All in a Raider

Ok first off drop the warriors. They will be an easy way to lose combat, and you don't want to shoot before you hit close combat anyways. It really will suck if you shoot as a smart player that removes his front line and makes it impossible to charge. Second drop the blasters on the incubi, you are paying 25 points for a 3+ armor save and a power weapon don't waste 5 more points removing your punisher for a weapon you wont shoot.

After that get rid of the Incubi master and one incubi and give them all plasma grenades or buy Drazhar. Remember you don't want to wipe an enemy out in the first round of combat, you want to cripple them and then finish them off on their turn.

And Finally add a trophy rack and animus vitae. They are solid gold.

For your extra HQ slot add 3 X Heamonculus w/ Destructor, and scissor hand (don't worry I am freeing up a ton of points in your list to pay for these.)

Troop #1: Raider Squad (171 points)
10 Warriors
Sybarite with a Blaster
Nightmare Doll (for pre-game reroll)
Torture Helm (+1 Attack)
Raider

Scrap this whole unit. you should never pay more than 120 points for a raider squad. Its just plain wasteful. No raider squad should have 10 men in it, frankly they wont survive a crash and the round of shooting that follows.

Also the nightmare doll is expensive considering you are buying a sybarite to sacrifice, and if you get the pleasure of playing a RAW lawyer it has not effect. (since in effect you no longer roll for table edges, you roll for turn order.)

Troop #2: Raider Squad (151 points)
10 Warriors
Sybarite with a Blaster
Torture Helm (+1 Attack)
Raider

At this point I am not sure you understand the nature of DE. We are not orcs, we don't max out our transports and run head on into the fray. We sit back and wait for the time to strike with specialized troops and a hail of high str, low AP weapons.

Drop this down to 5 warriors with 1 blasters and 1 Splinter cannon. Or if you want a sniper boat give one a dark lance, 1 blaster and give the boats nightshields.

Do this for all of your squads.

Fast Attack #1: Reaver Jetbikes (141)
5 Reaver Jetbikes
Succubus + Torture Helm
Combat Drugs

Again all of these are tooled out for combat. Drop this to 3 bikes with 2 blasters each. Blasters are your bread and butter, take them on every unit you can (except incubi)

Elite #1: Wyches (193)
10 Wyches
Succubus
Wych Weapons
Combat Drugs
Raider

Hey almost right! Take out some of the wyches, give the succubus an agoniser and a trophy rack, and then upgrade two wyches with blasters.

The reason you want less than 10 wyches is so that a Heamon can ride along and supply a flame template.


After that buy a unit of warpbeasts. At 75 points they are the best unit that DE can field. (If you want the math hammer check some of my other posts on DE)

Heavy #1: Ravager (120)
Disintegrator x3

Yup these make space wolves cry.... All you need to do is add nightshields to all of them.



So here is your finished list. (until you get Vect then I would swap out some stuff.)

2500 Pts - Dark Eldar Roster

1 Archon @ 375 pts (Combat Drug Dispenser; Tormentor Helm; Trophy Rack; Punisher; Animus Vitae)
1 Retinue
4 Incubi (Tormentor Helm; Punisher x4)
1 Drazhar (Disembowler Blades; Tormentor Helm)
1 Raider (Dark Lance)

1 Haemonculi @ 40 pts (Destructor)

1 Haemonculi @ 45 pts (Scissorhand; Destructor)

1 Haemonculi @ 45 pts (Scissorhand; Destructor)

5 Warp Beasts @ 75 pts (Beastmaster)
1 Beast master (Agoniser; Splinter Pistol)

7 Wyches @ 210 pts (Close Combat Weapon; Splinter Pistol; Wych Weapons; Blaster x2; Combat Drugs; Plasma Grenades)
1 Succubus (Agoniser; Splinter Pistol; Wych Weapons; Trophy Rack; Plasma Grenades (Squad))
1 Raider (Dark Lance)

7 Wyches @ 210 pts (Close Combat Weapon; Splinter Pistol; Wych Weapons; Blaster x2; Combat Drugs; Plasma Grenades)
1 Succubus (Agoniser; Splinter Pistol; Wych Weapons; Trophy Rack; Plasma Grenades (Squad))
1 Raider (Dark Lance)

7 Wyches @ 210 pts (Close Combat Weapon; Splinter Pistol; Wych Weapons; Blaster x2; Combat Drugs; Plasma Grenades)
1 Succubus (Agoniser; Splinter Pistol; Wych Weapons; Trophy Rack; Plasma Grenades (Squad))
1 Raider (Dark Lance)

5 Raider Squad @ 110 pts (Blaster; Splinter Rifle x3; Splinter Cannon; Raider)
1 Raider (Dark Lance)

5 Raider Squad @ 110 pts (Blaster; Splinter Rifle x3; Splinter Cannon; Raider)
1 Raider (Dark Lance)

5 Raider Squad @ 110 pts (Blaster; Splinter Rifle x3; Splinter Cannon; Raider)
1 Raider (Dark Lance)

5 Raider Squad @ 110 pts (Blaster; Splinter Rifle x3; Splinter Cannon; Raider)
1 Raider (Dark Lance)

5 Raider Squad @ 120 pts (Splinter Rifle x4; Dark Lance; Raider)
1 Raider (Dark Lance; Nightshields)

5 Raider Squad @ 120 pts (Splinter Rifle x4; Dark Lance; Raider)
1 Raider (Dark Lance; Nightshields)

3 Reaver Jetbike Squad @ 95 pts (Splinter Pistol; Blaster x2; Splinter Rifle x1; Combat Drugs; Reaver Jetbike)

3 Reaver Jetbike Squad @ 95 pts (Splinter Pistol; Blaster x2; Splinter Rifle x1; Combat Drugs; Reaver Jetbike)

1 Ravager @ 140 pts (Disentegrator x3; Nightshields)

1 Ravager @ 140 pts (Disentegrator x3; Nightshields)

1 Ravager @ 140 pts (Disentegrator x3; Nightshields)


Total Roster Cost: 2500



Now if you want to drop the points the first thing you cut is the bikes. They are about 10 points to expensive for what they do. Next I would drop the wyches down to 5 man squads and lose the trophy racks on the succubus. After that drazhar turns into a normal incubi and they all get plasma grenades. From there you would drop a squad or two of warriors. After that if you are playing a smaller game I drop all the incubi and have the archon join a squad of wyches (remember he can jump out of a squad and charge 12" in a different direction to take out a completely different unit).

Zid wrote:holy raiders.... thats a whole lotta fast moving stuff! You NEED some dark lances tho. I'd say make some of the ravagers into DL's. Stopping SM LR's (that can pop 2 raiders a turn) will be essential. A list like this will make dev squads weep lol, blowing up 1 vehicle a turn...

I didn't list out all the wargear that everyone was taking, but raiders automatically come with a darklance, so I didn't mention it further. I didn't take extra dark lances with the warriors (raider squads) because I'm not sure if I can or not, and if they're moving (and its a heavy weapon) it might be wasted points?

Also, I took disintegrators on the ravagers instead of dark lances because.....someone told me to. I'm sure there was a reason.

I've been reading the Dark Eldar tactica here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Dark_Eldar_Tactica and its been giving me some ideas; jetbikes are apparently STR4, T5; and you can take both an Archon and an Archite as long as you declare who is leading your army and which cult it is. *ponders*

Dashofpepper wrote:

Zid wrote:holy raiders.... thats a whole lotta fast moving stuff! You NEED some dark lances tho. I'd say make some of the ravagers into DL's. Stopping SM LR's (that can pop 2 raiders a turn) will be essential. A list like this will make dev squads weep lol, blowing up 1 vehicle a turn...

I didn't list out all the wargear that everyone was taking, but raiders automatically come with a darklance, so I didn't mention it further. I didn't take extra dark lances with the warriors (raider squads) because I'm not sure if I can or not, and if they're moving (and its a heavy weapon) it might be wasted points?

Also, I took disintegrators on the ravagers instead of dark lances because.....someone told me to. I'm sure there was a reason.

I've been reading the Dark Eldar tactica here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Dark_Eldar_Tactica and its been giving me some ideas; jetbikes are apparently STR4, T5; and you can take both an Archon and an Archite as long as you declare who is leading your army and which cult it is. *ponders*

well I just bought a DE army from a guy, and I've only played against em once in a 1850 pt tourney where they tore my nids a new one. This is what his list looked like (from memory), and I didn't know raiders came with DL's so that my bad!

1x Archon
1x Dracite (thats the guy that does 2 wounds per wound I think?)
7x incubi
1x incubi master
all kitted out with all sorts of crazy killiness

4x raiders
- full squad of warriors
- dark lance in each squad

8x peeps in jump packs
-2x dark lances

10x warriors sitting on the back field
- dark lance

2x ravagers
-3x dark lance

It was a very hard list, especially with nids :( he toasted 1-2 carnifexes a turn with all the pew he had.

When I get my army and dex in next week I'd be better off making some suggestions, but in the meantime I'll read up on the tactica myself as I'll need to know this stuff!

Blah I missed the shadow field on the archon, well I would just zap a couple wyches to fit it in.

Greetings,

Per your request I'm dropping in to offer some insight. To a certain extent I'll say - you could do a lot worse then listening to Clthomps. However, since he's the only experienced DE player on this site I've met who disagrees with me on a few things I'll offer up some additional thoughts that he may have not offered or that we disagree on...for starters I don't buy into Warp Beasts as a good idea. I think they're a kill point on a plate and I could use those points to buy Night Shields or something for my Wych Raiders and be a happier man. He and I will possibly go to the grave arguing this one.

Dashofpepper wrote:
HQ (309 points)
Archon
2x Warriors
6x Incubi
Torture Helms (+1 attack)
Punishers (+1 strength, power weapon)
2x Blasters (equipped on the warriors)
Shadow Field (for a 2+ invulnerability field)
Combat Drugs
Incubi Master (I don't remember why)
---->All in a Raider

Clthomps is absolutely correct - drop the Incubi Master he's a point sink and hardly any better then the regular Incubi. At this point level I'll echo the idea of both the Animus and Trophy Rack. I'll disagree with his assessment on the Warriors with Blasters (I agree with him about not putting Blasters on Incubi though). If anything you're about to charge can be wiped out by a bunch of pistols and 2 Blasters I question why you're charging it. I also suspect, as an Ork player, you're well aware of the concept of when it's safe to shoot and when it's not to. The blasters add some adaptability to your unit and also, in close combat, offer much more affordable options to eat power fist/klaw type attacks then the Incubi.

Troop #1: Raider Squad (171 points)
10 Warriors
Sybarite with a Blaster
Nightmare Doll (for pre-game reroll)
Torture Helm (+1 Attack)
Raider

Nightmare Doll is situational and you should always check with the TO to get his opinion on it before you try to bring it to a tourney. (for the record, the Archite in a Kabal trick I discussed in my Tactica is also one of these things to pre-check - though RAW there's no reason for that one not to work) Why put a Blaster on a Sybarite who may be glibbed before the game even starts? You can put one on a Warrior just as easily. The Tormentor Helm feels odd too, that's a lot of points for what is really nothing more then a splinter pistol on a hat - the only reason to take a Tormentor Helm instead of a splinter pistol is if you have either a Punisher or Hellglaive equipped. This Raider unit suffers because it is neither kitted out to shoot nor is it equipped to Assault. It feels a little tacked onto your list.

I'd advocate deciding on whether you want them to be anti-tank shooting, anti-infantry shooting or assault oriented and build them from there. At this point level Night Shields are a very solid option to consider as well. Also, I'd probably take 6 Troop options - are Troop options are good but fragile and your opponent will have a lot of desire to blow them away. Safety in numbers and all that.

Troop #2-#5: Raider Squad (151 points)
10 Warriors
Sybarite with a Blaster
Torture Helm (+1 Attack)
Raider

A lot of the same notes as above for all of this - and Clthomps hit it pretty well. raiders are like Trukks except they are much more punishing when destroyed because they are not ramshackle. DE die in their vehicles a lot more often then Orks will because we'll be wounded on a 4+ and only have a 5+ save meaning any given crash can kill about a third of your men every time. Our Warriors kill things not with the splinter rifle (which sucks) but via our very cheap special and heavy weapon options (which rule) and via some nasty close combat options. Because you're fielding so many Wyches and RJBs I would suggest that you should look into making these squads into either Gunboats of mini Sniper Boats.

Typical build is 5 men with either 1 Darklance (mini-sniper) or 1 Splinter Cannon and 1 Blaster or Shredder (Gunboat - and I recommend the Blaster) The Gunboat fights a midrange battle as it flys up and shoots at stuff while staying in their boat. The mobile weapon platform Raider that can be used to capture locations is pretty good as well. The mini-Sniper either stays in their boat for added manuverability or disembarks to leave you a stationary heavy weapon team as the Raider flys around on its own (perhaps to serve as meatshield to the Archon's raider...) I do discuss assault boats in the tactica if you want to stick closer to your Orky roots - DE are more squishy, but get to do their damage a lot earlier then Orks do, which is nice. Most Assault squads can operate as a Gunboat if you don't want to assault whatever you're fighting.)

Fast Attack #1-#3: Reaver Jetbikes (141)
5 Reaver Jetbikes
Succubus + Torture Helm
Combat Drugs

If you buy the T. Helm your point total is off. Why is the Succubus here? The T.Helm is of no help to you versus a Splinter Pistol which is 4 points cheaper, and the Succubus upgrade is doing nothing for your unit. His stat line is practically the same (is 18 points really worth +1 attack?) RJBs should pretty much always take the blasters, as they dramatically increase the value of the unit for minimal cost. They can be pretty solid as a minimized squad of three used to hunt tanks with their blasters. If you want to take more and use them for close combat you really ought to add either an IC on a RJB or give the Succubus some extra close combat equipment (Punisher and T. Helm can make him pretty scary - 4 power weapon attacks on the charge at Str 5 plus whatever advantage the drugs gave him) You do pay a pretty penny for that though.

Elite #1-#3: Wyches (193)
10 Wyches
Succubus
Wych Weapons
Combat Drugs
Raider

Unless you're planning to use them only to tie up units a Wych Succubus without an Agoniser is like a Slugga Boyz Nob without a Power Klaw. You should probably also upgrade two Wyches to have Blasters. A maxed out squad of Wyches like this can be fun, but is expensive and fragile (especially if they blow up their Raider). The catch is at this point level with DE you really do start having extra points to lob around. The big risk is that whatever you attack you'll sweep in that turn leaving you vulnerable to being shot up on your opponent's turn. I would probably advocate at least cutting the squads down to 7-8.

Heavy #1-#3: Ravager (120)
Disintegrator x3

Don't switch out one of these for a Lance Ravager if you're planning to take some mini-Sniper Boats. Ravagers are awesome horde eating machines and cut through Marines and Termies like a hot knife through butter. As you take more Gunboat/Assault type options with your raider Squads you increase the functionality of a Ravager with all Lances.


As you try to pare down the list to smaller builds, like 1850, your primary goal is to cut bodies before you cut special weapons or Raiders/Ravagers. I think the first and most obvious cuts for you in moving down would be as follows;

1. Drop two of the RJB squads - they are harraser and tank hunter units. In smaller games your Raiders and other blasters will be enough anti-tank. Gunboats can handle harrasment and anti-tank for a lot less then RJBs.
2. Trim down maxed out squads, especially Wyches. Orks tend to take a lot of maxed squads - optimal DE do not, they take lots of fairly minimized units.
3. You could cut back the Archon's squad and also drop him to being a Dracon if you need the points. 5 Incubi and a DE Lord is enough to deal with most units all by themselves.
4. If you add in Night Shields to your big list dropping them off of Raiders is often not a bad idea. The order of importance for units is (descending in importance) Ravagers, Raider w. DE Lord, Raider w. mini SNiper Squad staying inside it, Raider w. Wyches, all other Raiders.


I loved your Ghazghkull/Nob story. I actually almost made a player quit playing Orks when I ended two Nob squads in one turn with charging Incubi and Wyches. It's one of the joys of playing DE. Before they play you no one believes they have much to fear, and after you're done, as long as you've done your job, they almost never want to play them again. Best of luck to you and feel free to ask any questions you may have about what I've blathered on about.

Lookin pretty good so far maybe not as many ravagers...

As usual thor gives (95%) good advice

Even when faced with the mathammer he still doubts the power of warpbeasts.


I would suggest trying both lists and seeing what you like. As with everything its all based on your play style.

Clthomps wrote:As usual thor gives (95%) good advice

Et tu, Clthomps?

Well, I was going to try to sell him on my Shadow Wings army - Mandrakes and Scourges. But I figured it'd just be too cruel to his opponents to have to face an army that's so full of awesome.

You do have a good point for Dashofpepper; There are a couple different variations to the optimal DE list (which is Raider Spam of some flavour). But with Raider Spam you can work it to be fairly assaulty, a mix, or a straight up gunline which plays similar to Tau. I personally run a assaulty to short range list though I have been slowly being dragged around to running more pure shooting options and hiding on the edges of the board like a proper dark pansy would. But all of the options are quite viable. It probably will take you a few games to figure out which one is more your speed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

r3n3g8b0y wrote:Lookin pretty good so far maybe not as many ravagers...

I also just have to add, I hope you mean Reavers, not Ravagers. You should pretty much always have 3 Ravagers except for certain builds or to work composition scoring.

Thanks for the replies so far!

A few things to note...

1. I'm not afraid of unique army lists; if I ever posted the Tau army lists I play (and pretty much always win with), I'd get flamed down for poor choices, and my Ork army lists (which I've been playing more often lately) are pretty much 100% close combat oriented.

2. I realize that wyches are supposed to be delivery vehicles for agonizers, but I thought a succubus got one automatically for some reason, which is why I didn't put it in there. My mistake.

3. The Tormentor helms I took because they add +1 attack; I didn't realize you could do that with...a pistol? Two close combat weapons, right - I didn't know you could do that though. To be really funky, couldn't you take a pistol AND a tomentor helm and get +2 attacks? *snickers* Pointwise, I'll leave off the tormentor helms in favor of the pistol to get that +1A.

4. The two armies I play: Tau and Ork are diametric and polar opposites. I play Tau as a static gunline, pretty much immobile and I play Orks as speed freaks; the vehicles are all cheap delivery platforms for my Orks to get into close combat (although for pride I do have to say that I was doing that before mechanized became popular).

That leaves me unfamiliar with how to "mesh" a shooting and assault army. The most important piece of advice I give for Ork players is that Orks can do anything any other army can and do it better, but only one at a time. I think mixing a shooting and an assault based Ork army is ineffective. At the same time, Orks lack real anti-tank; my lists always have boarding planks and nobs with powerklaws. All the prevalence of dark lances is very attractive to me. On the flip side of that, my original attraction was its assault ability - an Archon and Incubi squad weathered an assault by Ghazghkull and 10 individually equipped nobs (my super unit) and turned around and WON the fight.

So I'm mixed between wanting DE's shooting abilities, wanting their close combat abilities (of one unit anyway), and having my past experience tell me that mixing the two in an army are a bad idea. I'd be interested in seeing an answer to that, and whether those guiding principles hold true with Dark Eldar. It may be that I need to completely revamp my ideas on how to play them and make either a shooty or an assaulty list, and stop trying to combine them.

5. I tend to go all foot slogging or all mechanized to deny my opponent the utility of some of their weaponry, so warp beasts don't fit the "theme" of how I play. If they're the only exposed troops for a couple of turns, they're going to attract all the anti-troop weaponry, whereas if I took no units on foot, all that anti-troop weaponry is wasted until a vehicle bites it; ala a foot slogging list with no vehicles takes away most of the utility of all the anti-tank weaponry. If I were to play a foot-slogging list, webway portal, something like that; I'd probably consider warp beasts, but in a mechanized list, they don't really belong with my stuff.

I'm running out the door here, but when I get home from work tonight, I will take all this advice into consideration, retool my army list and submit it for a second round of feedback.

1. I'm not afraid of unique army lists; if I ever posted the Tau army lists I play (and pretty much always win with), I'd get flamed down for poor choices, and my Ork army lists (which I've been playing more often lately) are pretty much 100% close combat oriented.

Well if that is the case you might want to play the extremely rare, but very competitive footslogging list. It consists of 6 Heamons, 6 sniper squads, 2 wyche squads, 1 mandrake squad, 1 warpbeast pack, and shockingly 3 squads of scourges (all DL of course)

It plays a lot like tau should.

4. The two armies I play: Tau and Ork are diametric and polar opposites. I play Tau as a static gunline, pretty much immobile and I play Orks as speed freaks; the vehicles are all cheap delivery platforms for my Orks to get into close combat (although for pride I do have to say that I was doing that before mechanized became popular).

That leaves me unfamiliar with how to "mesh" a shooting and assault army. The most important piece of advice I give for Ork players is that Orks can do anything any other army can and do it better, but only one at a time. I think mixing a shooting and an assault based Ork army is ineffective. At the same time, Orks lack real anti-tank; my lists always have boarding planks and nobs with powerklaws. All the prevalence of dark lances is very attractive to me. On the flip side of that, my original attraction was its assault ability - an Archon and Incubi squad weathered an assault by Ghazghkull and 10 individually equipped nobs (my super unit) and turned around and WON the fight.

So I'm mixed between wanting DE's shooting abilities, wanting their close combat abilities (of one unit anyway), and having my past experience tell me that mixing the two in an army are a bad idea. I'd be interested in seeing an answer to that, and whether those guiding principles hold true with Dark Eldar. It may be that I need to completely revamp my ideas on how to play them and make either a shooty or an assaulty list, and stop trying to combine them.

DE work best as a combination army, the most common strategy is a "hammer (Archon and friends) and an anvil (wyches hiding behind your gunline). The basic idea is to soften the opponent up for 2-3 turns and bait him into assaulting your sniper squads (I almost always run two units of 10 warriors with 2X DL just to bait the enemy) by the time they get within a turn of charging you fleet the sniper squads away and roll up behind them with your tarpit wyches, and place the raiders sideways to act as mobile cover. Next you take your hammer and assault the unit closest to your base. Then its just a matter of hopping around with the archon and cleaning up what the wyches have trapped.

5. I tend to go all foot slogging or all mechanized to deny my opponent the utility of some of their weaponry, so warp beasts don't fit the "theme" of how I play. If they're the only exposed troops for a couple of turns, they're going to attract all the anti-troop weaponry, whereas if I took no units on foot, all that anti-troop weaponry is wasted until a vehicle bites it; ala a foot slogging list with no vehicles takes away most of the utility of all the anti-tank weaponry. If I were to play a foot-slogging list, webway portal, something like that; I'd probably consider warp beasts, but in a mechanized list, they don't really belong with my stuff.

If you go through some of the older DE post you will see my argument for there inclusion in mobile armies. The gist of is is that there move +fleet is more than enough to keep up with raiders that are advancing and shooting, and that there low profile makes them easy to hide behind one or more raiders. All I can say is try them, I think you will be surprised.

Dashofpepper wrote:3. The Tormentor helms I took because they add +1 attack; I didn't realize you could do that with...a pistol? Two close combat weapons, right - I didn't know you could do that though. To be really funky, couldn't you take a pistol AND a tomentor helm and get +2 attacks? *snickers* Pointwise, I'll leave off the tormentor helms in favor of the pistol to get that +1A.

An important clarification is that a Tormentor Helm does not add +1 attack. Whatit does is add a pistol that you don't need a hand to hold - a pistol adds +1 attack in close combat. Multiple pistols will help you no more then multiple close combat weapons. Since Sybarites/Succubi/ect. get CCWs for free there's no point in taking a T.Helm and a pistol.

That leaves me unfamiliar with how to "mesh" a shooting and assault army. The most important piece of advice I give for Ork players is that Orks can do anything any other army can and do it better, but only one at a time.

I remember this advice because I read and applied it when starting up my Ork army in 5th. I would say the general concept of DE is that we are very mobile and able to dish out a lot of damage. Use the mobility to protect your units and unload with your entire army in focused spots. Spreading out the enemy or making him chase you is optimal because you'll always be able to strike first and harder. DE are quite capable of running mixed focus armies because so many of our units are multi purpose (I mean, any unit with two Blasters can work as anti-tank - even Wyches. And Wyches can work as a pseudo gunboat if you so need them to.)

So I'm mixed between wanting DE's shooting abilities, wanting their close combat abilities (of one unit anyway), and having my past experience tell me that mixing the two in an army are a bad idea. I'd be interested in seeing an answer to that, and whether those guiding principles hold true with Dark Eldar. It may be that I need to completely revamp my ideas on how to play them and make either a shooty or an assaulty list, and stop trying to combine them.

A mix will serve you best methinks, especially for all comers. A common 1850 force from me will look roughly like this;

Archon on Bike w. punisher load out
Dracon in Raider w. Incubi and punisher load out.
RJB squad that the Archon goes with - 2 blasters and sometimes punisher kit on Succubus
2x 6 man Wyche Squads in Raiders Agoniser on the Succubi
4-5 minimized Raider squads - usually 1 mini sniper and 3 Gunboats at the moment (sometimes I run these all as Assault boats)
3 Ravagers with assorted load outs - usually I 'Vect' them for maximum adaptability but 1 all DL and 2 all Dissie builds are not uncommon.

The force is all meched up and can move around very quickly to adapt as I need it
The Archon's bike retinue is there to help absorb wounds as they turbo boost out. Then he swoops off to kill whatever I wish while they hunt tanks or Dev squads and their ilk. This is a distraction tool
The Gunboats serve as mobile shooting screens and the Incubi and Wyches work as a dagger, stabbing into whatever I consider the vulnerable heart of the enemy.
The Ravagers serve as a gunline and blast away at whatever needs pounding.

I've updated my OP with a revised list based on all the input and feedback I got here. Please critique.

*EDIT* Clthomps, I noticed you added a specific mention of a splinter pistol as close combat weapons....but I don't need to pay for them because they are already in the profile, right? I also forgot to add blasters to the Wych squads....are those important? And I didn't add any Haemonculi although I suppose that would be a good use of points to take me up to 1750 or 1850.

HQ (403 points)
Archon
-Combat drugs
-Tormentor Helm
-Shadow Field
-Punisher
-Animus Vitae
1x Warrior
4x Incubi
Draghar
Raider

For any build under 2000 I think Drazhar will make the unit too efficient. This is a squad that will kill just about anything in h2h, but which doesn't want to be shot at. With Drazhar along you'll be *very* likely to wipe out whatever you charge on the turn you charge, leaving you wide open to get rapid fired to death. I would advocate dropping Drazhar for a regular Incubi, to save points you might even want to go with just 4 Incubi and the Warrior - other then that this looks pretty darn solid.

Troop #1: Raider Squad (105 points)
5 Warriors + 1 Dark Lance
Raider

*TROOP NOTE* I've shrunk these from 10 to 5, and intend to use them as mini-sniper squads like I read about. My Raiders will drop the squads off in cover somewhere on turn 1, then wander around the battlefield the rest of the game sniping and being a nuisance.

This is looking pretty sharp. I will remind you that you can also leave them on the Raiders pretty functionally - it will serve as potential extra defense for the squad inside and considerable extra mobity. I also like sometimes starting some of them outside the boats in order to hold an objective within your deployment area, this also means I can fire the lance turn 1 - and if I have a lance on the board and a target I like to be firing as soon as possible. I will caution that you may want to leave at least one squad mounted and/or be ready to pick up a Sniper Squad to go claim a point in objective missions. Empty Raiders will serve well as mobile terrain and weapons platforms.

With all the Warriors serving as Lance gunline probably at least one Wych squad should be held back to serve as a counter assault unit to help slow down/stop whatever assault units your opponent sends blitzing for the snipers. I also use empty Raiders to help with this, by just obnoxiously putting them in front of the enemy and forcing them to deal with blowing them up while the snipers can still sit back and shoot.

Elite #1: Wyches (173)
7 Wyches
Succubus + Agonizer
6x Wych weapons
Combat Drugs
Raider

*ELITE NOTE* Succubus' already have pistols from their profile, so I didn't add any....did I do this right? I shrunk the squads to seven; figured I'd try it as a starting point. I gave the Wyches Agonizers.

You are correct on how you handled the splinter pistols. This is a very classic build and will serve you well. With Wych squads this large, as you move up in points, you may wish to consider adding a trophy rack to the Succubi in order to help them hold the line. For 1500 point builds I think dropping a Wych Squad would be a good way to help make points. Usually in games 1850 and under you only really need 2 Wych squads if you have a Retinue with your Lord, as that gives you three solid dedicated assault units. Depending on what you want your Wyches to do for you will adjust how many you should be taking, but 7 is probably a pretty good neutral start point (and coming off playing Orks will help, because you'll be expecting a lot of damage from them). I will also note again you should add Blasters to the Wyches. This is for a couple of reasons.

1. Wyches kill things via the Agoniser, not via Str 3 non power weapon hits. Giving up 2 attacks in order to get 2 Str 8 AP 2 assault shots is well worth it. Usually it will behoove you to fire the Blasters into whatever you're charging.
2. Sometimes you don't want to assault just yet (or maybe at all) at times like this the inclusion of 2 Blasters will let you operate your Wych Raider like a pseudo-Gunboat. 2 Blasters and a handful of pistols can still put a hurting on lots of footslogging units.
3. Occasionally you just need some extra oomph to blast Walkers or other vehicles, and if the Wyches have no optimal targets yet it doesn't hurt if they can lend a hand trying to damage the Ironclad or something.

Heavy #1: Ravager (120)
Disintegrator x3

It's hard to mess up by taking 3 Ravagers. Giving them all dissies with your heavy Lance spam amongst your troops is a good idea. Your biggest danger is that these and your Incubi are your only true tools to gut horde armies. Be prepared to play a lot of 'keep away' with your mobility versus horde as you whittle them down.


To move down to 1500 I'd drop Drazhar and a Wych squad first in an attempt to make points. Don't give up the 3 Ravagers or fielding a bunch of Raiders - more boats equals a better way for DE to win.

Moving up points the addition of another HQ slot will probably be a good tool - Haemys have a variety of uses and can add a little extra bite in a few areas (a Destructor/Scissorhand build added to Wyches or a Warrior Gunboat are probably the most functional.). Also, as more points become available you can decide about adding plasma grenades to Wyches and Retinues (I know with Orks we laugh at grenades, but a big advantage of DE is their initiative. I often will be a little cheap and not put them on Wyches and just hope for the strike first drug or won't assault into cover, but even I usually put it on my Lord and his retinue.) As you get to 1750 and above you should definitely add more troops, 5-6 should be standard in my opinion. Since they are so vital to 66% of the missions, and also our troop options are really good at helping us kill stuff. Adding on a very cheap Reaver Jet Bike squad can also work wonders (3 with 2 Blasters to turbo boost out, distract from Incubi and Snipers, and hunt tanks) and as you move to 1850 and beyond you can take 2 of them or perhaps expand into a larger RJB squad perhaps with a Lord or Haemy riding with them for extra killyness.

You do realize you're also going to be obligated to give us some mini bat reps on your first few DE attempts.

HQ (403 points)
Archon
-Combat drugs
-Tormentor Helm
-Shadow Field
-Punisher
-Animus Vitae
1x Warrior
4x Incubi
Draghar
Raider

*HQ note* In accordance with all the advice, I've shrunk the unit size, left in a warrior to absorb a power fist hit, and added Draghar.

Looks good, Drazhar is a bit of overkill, but if you like him I might suggest moving the Archon and changing it to a Dracon without a shadow field, then taking the Archon and having him ride around with the wyches (preferably the ones that get the 12" charge range)

Troop #1: Raider Squad (105 points)
5 Warriors + 1 Dark Lance
Raider

Troop #2: Raider Squad (105 points)
5 Warriors + 1 Dark Lance
Raider

Troop #3: Raider Squad (105 points)
5 Warriors + 1 Dark Lance
Raider

Troop #4: Raider Squad (105 points)
5 Warriors + 1 Dark Lance
Raider

Perfect, this will make mech armies, MC armies, and Nobs cry.

*TROOP NOTE* I've shrunk these from 10 to 5, and intend to use them as mini-sniper squads like I read about. My Raiders will drop the squads off in cover somewhere on turn 1, then wander around the battlefield the rest of the game sniping and being a nuisance.

Leave the squads on the boats, they will stay alive better. Then position the boats in a line behind each other, so that only one is out of cover. When that boat dies it makes cover for the rest. Remember you can fire the DL on the warriors from any point on the hull (i.e. The very tip)

Elite #1: Wyches (173)
7 Wyches
Succubus + Agonizer
6x Wych weapons
Combat Drugs
Raider

Elite #3: Wyches (173)
7 Wyches
Succubus + Agonizer
6x Wych weapons
Combat Drugs
Raider

Elite #3: Wyches (173)
7 Wyches
Succubus + Agonizer
6x Wych weapons
Combat Drugs
Raider

3 large units is a bit much for a tarpit unit, especially when you don't have anyone on the ground to protect. (also without running the points I can't tell if you have 7 wyches and a succubus, or 6 and a Succubus) I would drop all the squads down to minimum and add an extra HQ to tool around with what ever squad gets the best/worst combat drugs. Also I would add 2 Blasters to every unit. You would be surprised how often only 1-2 wyches will make it out of a fight, and nothing is better than having them load into a raider and go Tank/Meq hunting.... because at that point any kills they get is gravy.

*ELITE NOTE* Succubus' already have pistols from their profile, so I didn't add any....did I do this right? I shrunk the squads to seven; figured I'd try it as a starting point. I gave the Wyches Agonizers.

The way I listed before is the default listing of AB, since they come with a pistol it labels it, even though it costs no points. Agoonizers are a must! Never take a succubus without one.

Heavy #1: Ravager (120)
Disintegrator x3

Heavy #2: Ravager (120)
Disintegrator x3

Heavy #3: Ravager (120)
Disintegrator x3

Best choice ever! The only thing better is playing 2000 points and getting a 14 AV, fast skimmer, walker in addition to three of them!

When you field these, you will hear "I can't believe that you can get 3 plasma cannons on a fast skimmer for 120 points! Let me see that codex!" Almost as often as you will hear " I thought GW stopped making DE, are you sure there legal."



Hope that helps! (oh also MOOOAARR WARP BEASTS!!!!!!!!)

Chris

I'm working on revisions right now...

No one has said anything about Horrorfexes for the vehicles, or night shields. Thoughts?

lovin the list now! I'll probably copy you when I eventually receive my army :(

Okies; new list posted after second round of revisions. The vehicles have no upgrades, which is strange to me. Even as an ork player, I'd use boarding planks, reinforced rams, and red paint jobs, turning the 35 point trukk into a 50 point trukk.

Horrorfexes seem worthy....possibly night shields for my ravagers? Should I not be including any of that?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And someone give me an army name. ><

I've rejected all the ones I thought of...

Pointy Eared Pillagers was the closest.

1st off I love your enthusiasm to get stuck in, but I completely agree with the points that Clthomps and Thor665 have mentioned. The only thing I would like to mention is Reaver Jetbikers aren't reliable close combat units for their points unfortunately. They are much more suited for tank hunting and 3 squads of them is a huge points sink. Keep in mind they are still quite squishy.

Your current list is looking really nice, Plasma nades on the HQ crew would be favorable.

Edit to add info on Night Shields and Horrorfexes. Night shields are a huge welcome to Ravagers and perhaps the mini gunboat type Raiders. I can't comment on Horrorfexes though as I don't have much experience with them, but from what I understand it is a gamble, if it doesn't work you're pretty sure to lose that Raider.

Names... something sinister... with all those dark lances and disintegrators... Kabal of Vaporized Slave-thing. Kabal of the Forfeiting Opponent?

Dunno. I really dont understand why you guys spammin ravagers. Scourges prawn people with their jump packs and heavy weapons they need to be sittin still with. ofc this is coming from a guy that has 11 scourges, 7 of which have splinter rifles. No seriously, I really dont know where/when/why I bought them haha ( maybe i was thinking third edition where i could shoot and assault, probably why i have 10 hellions too).

In summation: Don't listen to me about scourges. Disintegrators rock with the blast weapon change. I agree with Plasma nads on the HQ and night shields on ravagers.

I dont have my codex handy, but im pretty sure it states that you can only put the blasters and shredders on the incubi, and spl cannons and dls on the warriors within the retinue.

Nelson wrote:ofc this is coming from a guy that has 11 scourges, 7 of which have splinter rifles. No seriously, I really dont know where/when/why I bought them haha

I think I own about 20 Scourges. They did use to be acceptable (not good) when you could deep strike them in behind stuff and glancing hit vehicles all to hell. Now with the new glancing rules even that is denied them.

Clthomps shall approve of your Warp Beasts.

Horrorfexes are awesome in a tourney setting - as generally speaking you'll end up fighting multiple armies that aren't fearless. I include them fairly often, mostly on Wych boats and Gunboats, since they are often up close. It also provides you with a cheap secondary weapon add-on and honestly the pinning capability is sick, I've locked down CSM squads fro entire games with two of them. Their biggest drawback is that there are a lot of armies out there that are fearless nowadays, in that case they are still a pretty cheap upgrade to ignore the second weapon destroyed result with.

Nightshields have some varied opinions amongst DE players. You will do quite well with them on your Ravagers, and this is a very common upgrade. The more gunline you want to be probably the more use will be the nightshields. A lot of people also like them on their Lord's Raider to help protect him a little more. I often forego them since by the time you put on a few you can basically buy another Raider, but that does come down a little bit to playstyle (as I've tried more gunline oriented DE and moved away from Assault DE I am finding more uses for them).

On the whole the true glory of DE vehicles is they are fast skimmer transports that come with a Dark Lance stock. Upgrades are not needed for optimal use, but you have zeroed in on the only upgrades really worth taking.

I'll still say Drazhar is probably too much for an 1850 list, but you may just need to see the unit in action to decide how that does or does not work for you. Other then that, I would not be bothered to field that list, it's looking pretty sharp.

I've spent the last couple hours trying to figure out which models are which. I've identified Haemonculi. I figured out that the guy with a trident and a net is a wych. The model with the powerklaw looking thing that I thought was a dracon is actually a sybarite with poison claws.

Worse, what I thought to be dark eldar warriors with dark lances are actually scourges with dark lances; I'm going to have to sneak them into the dark eldar units I think; maybe shave off their wings or something.

There's a few models I haven't been able to identify, so I'm going to describe them the best I can:

1. I presume if a model has a T.Helm, its an incubi? I have two forms of "Incubi" then with guns; one of the guns has small ridges on top, and the other has a bulb in the middle and two spikes protruding from the barrel area; I presume these are blasters and shredders (although not sure in what order).

2. I have several metal models with shoulder-mounted weapons. I have no idea what they are. They kind of look like the same ridged weapons as above, so I'm guessing that they are either warriors or wyches with blasters.

0. The Trident and net wyche is a special character, Lilith. (A must if you run a wyche cult, if only because that is the best looking DE model ever made.... unless you count the slaves on vect's boat.)

As per the scourge just clip the arms off and attach them to a warrior.

1. The skull masks are Incubi, the gun with the two spikes coming out of the barrel is a shredder, shave off the spikes and call it a blaster as shredders are the last thing incubi need. The other gun is a real blaster.


2. The shoulder mounted weapons are either Darklances, Blasters, or Shredders. I also suggest you make blasters out of these shredders because you can no longer buy warriors with assault weapons..... not even in the gakky boxed sets, let alone blisters.



I will post another massive on tactics, and maybe if your lucky I will post a competitive list that uses scourge, after I get back from dinner (maybe 2 hours or so)

Clthomps wrote:0. The Trident and net wyche is a special character, Lilith. (A must if you run a wyche cult, if only because that is the best looking DE model ever made.... unless you count the slaves on vect's boat.)

On the GW site, it shows Lelith with a sword and a trident.

I have two models that sort of fit this description; one with a a sword and pistol, one with a trident and net. Are they both lelith?

Those sound like standard wyches to me. The net ones a dude probably (hehe). Succubi (the wych sergeants) look like theyre prancing into the air and have a curvy whip above their heads.

As far as I know there's only one model for lelith... Is the other model female with wych-like clothing?

My bad I forgot that they made some gakky wyche models with tridents.

There is only one lilith and she does have a sword.


I missed this earlier

Plasma nades on the HQ crew would be favorable.

If you take Drazhar it is a waste of points to take plasma grenades, since GW (in all there wisdom) neglected to add them to his profile. I know if I was a super body guard I wouldn't bother taking any grenades.....






After reviewing list #3 one thing sticks out like a sore thumb.....


3 Jetbikes with 2 x Blasters is 95 points not 65.

So I propose you drop them add night shields to your ravagers, and a horrorfex to your archons boat.

Other than that I would drop a wyche or two to free up the points to give both squads 2 X blasters. (btw you have one of the squads labled as elite #3 when you only have 2)


After that its perfect! (other than the lack of warpbeasts )