Fire Warriors BS

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**TopC**

They are supposed to be shooty mc shooters..bs3? perhaps drop points off their physical stats S/T to give them +1 bs?

just from reading 40k books, and the codex..they are supposed to be uber hunters that preferr long range but arent very strong (compared to other races) so..why average to hit?

**A Lictor... BLOR!!!**

They are supposed to be relying on the markerlights to up their hit chances. Anyway, Spehss Marines are BS 4 after decades of training, and eldritch technologies that improve their accuracy. Aren't Tau only supposed to live 40 years or so? That could be how long a marine is just a scout...

**TopC**

The candle that burns twice as bright burns half as long.. (blade runner quote)

shorter life doesnt mean less skilled, just that more information and life is compressed into a shorter period of time.. besides i cant off the top of my head think of a fluff reason that space marines even like to shoot things from afar.. its always shoot till we are close enough to drench our power armor and chain blades in enemy blood (not that they havnt spent their entire lifetime in the pursuit of becoming more efficient killers..to include range..) so dont get me wrong i love space marines lol but for 10pts i think FWs are bit lame...alot of people think that the new codex will make them cheaper (yay squeeze in 1 more piece of something that i like) was just saying at current price id be content with something along the lines of my previous post..

**grankobot**

Because the designers thought BS4 would be too powerful and wasn't the direction they wanted to go with the unit.

Rules > Fluff

**TopC**

sheesh why ya gotta go and be all technically logical on us?

**grankobot**

actly i men bcuz tehy are leik thedumbz and dont know how to shot laz0rs

**sniperjolly**

Tau have poor eyesight, anything past 5 meters is a blur! Therefore, base FW BS is a high 2, but crazy bionics and helmet optics that any guardsman would kill for (and some do) bring it up to 3. Why BS 4?

**Skinnattittar**

I would have to back Sniperjolly here. Tau are supposed to have horrendous eyesight. Preferring long range does mean you can be effective at long range. Also remember that the "average" Guardsmen use a very accurate weapon that is mounted with a scope, and are also well trained in there use, BS3 isn't actually supposed to be horrible.

**Kilkrazy**

A Lictor... BLOR!!! wrote:They are supposed to be relying on the markerlights to up their hit chances. Anyway, Spehss Marines are BS 4 after decades of training, and eldritch technologies that improve their accuracy. Aren't Tau only supposed to live 40 years or so? That could be how long a marine is just a scout...

Humans are slow learners compared to Tau.

I don't agree with increasing the base BS but most Tau units are currently overpriced or under-equipped for the points, considering 5e codexes.

There is an argument that as Tau get experience and go up ranks their BS should increase rather than their WS, and their A should be applicable to shooting rather than hacking. That would be more fluffy.

**adielubbe**

No. BS3 is right for them.
They are small and soft as it is.
BS4 would make them have equal BS to Marines (including chaos), Aspect warriors etc. Which IMO doesnt fit into the fluff right.

I do agree that they need some sort of boost, because atm most players are reluctant to field them.
A cheaper transport is top on my list of suggestions.

**TopC**

just kinda dumb that Firewarriors are more expensive than kroot, yet at rapid fire range Kroot are the more efficient investment in points.

**kuro_khan**

TopC wrote:The candle that burns twice as bright burns half as long.. (blade runner quote)

shorter life doesnt mean less skilled, just that more information and life is compressed into a shorter period of time...

To tag on this, anyone play Mass Effect? Maybe the Tau are like the Salarians.

**TopC**

kuro_khan wrote:
TopC wrote:The candle that burns twice as bright burns half as long.. (blade runner quote)

shorter life doesnt mean less skilled, just that more information and life is compressed into a shorter period of time...

To tag on this, anyone play Mass Effect? Maybe the Tau are like the Salarians.

in the fluff of the codex tau only sleep like 2-3 hours a day... so essentially if a tau lives 40 years, and a human sleep 8 hours a day.. tau effectively have an additional 10 years of life experience added on..so 50 years in human standard (kinda like dog years !) besidies...how old do IG really get? lol more meat for the grinder

**Eidolon**

Did anyone ever play fire warrior? The computer game with the sensitivity set to maximum. If your hand twitches the crosshair moves at least 25 degrees in a random direction. I found it was damn hard to aim accurately in that game, and thus tau have bad ballistic skill.

This is coming from someone who played halo and cod4 with near max sensitivity too. Tau are simply too twitchy to accurately fire. I think they should drop their BS and let them get one more shot.

**Nelson**

Kuro, dude, us Dark eldar players, we on the ball. The salarians are even bluish and are wimpy but really smart. Makes sense! And Dark Eldar are like Romulans, wheras eldar are like Vulcans. Dude im gonna shave one of my syb's heads and paint tattoos

**kuro_khan**

Lmao, I think that Romulan/Vulcan comparison is pretty accurate.

Seriously, if you guys haven't played Mass Effect, play it, check out a Salarian, and compare them to Tau.

**Eidolon**

Nelson wrote: wheras eldar are like Vulcans.

I never thought of this before. Eldrad/Yriel as Spock/Kirk combo?

**FlingitNow**

Lmao, I think that Romulan/Vulcan comparison is pretty accurate.

Miles off since when have the Vulkans been evil piratical marauders like the Eldar? Or the Romulans completely pointless and redundant like the Dark Eldar (you don't get Dark Dark Elves in Warhammer so why in 40k?).

**Nelson**

Since when are the Eldar evil piratical raiders? DARK Eldar are the evil, piratical raiders. With all the spiky bits and evilness yes. Eldar corsairs are renegades but theyre not in the spikybit, evil business ( unless theyre paid well enough, I suppose). Dumb thing. Eldar are self-absorbed and assured in their intellectual and physical superiority to humans, Dark Eldar are all that and more baby. Not a direct correlation to Vulkan/Romulans but Id say the connection's strong enough for a bit of musing. Not that Im a trekky or anything, just that big Romulan ship in the new star trek movie reminded me a bit of something the dark eldar would cruise around in if they didn't mind a huge target profile.

**Rico**

Nelson wrote:Since when are the Eldar evil piratical raiders? DARK Eldar are the evil, piratical raiders. With all the spiky bits and evilness yes. Eldar corsairs are renegades but theyre not in the spikybit, evil business ( unless theyre paid well enough, I suppose). Dumb thing. Eldar are self-absorbed and assured in their intellectual and physical superiority to humans, Dark Eldar are all that and more baby. Not a direct correlation to Vulkan/Romulans but Id say the connection's strong enough for a bit of musing. Not that Im a trekky or anything, just that big Romulan ship in the new star trek movie reminded me a bit of something the dark eldar would cruise around in if they didn't mind a huge target profile.

Some become pirates. 4e BGB had a kill team with Eldar Pirates. And generally Eldar favor a hit and run strategy - raids, I dare say. Dark Eldar are Eldar that are Dark. They aren't some completely different race - they came from the same place as the Eldar, but took a different path.

Rico.

**Skinnattittar**

In older fluff the majority of Eldar didn't live in the Craftworlds, but were roving pirates and corsairs since their culture collapsed upon itself. The Dark Eldar are actually closer to how most Eldar were before they incidentally created Slaanesh, and the regular Eldar were the ones that tried to distances themselves from the hedonism of their culture and save their race.

It's all rather complicated now, since the history of both is rather clouded and murked.

**FlingitNow**

Since when are the Eldar evil piratical raiders?

Since rogue trader... So about 20 years so far... Try to keep up.

Dark Eldar make a mockery of Eldar the only reason Eldar don't act as the "dark" Eldar currently do is because Slaanesh would eat their souls if they did. So if there is a way for them to still act they way they did before the fall without Slaanesh eating their souls why don't they all do it?

The control the Eldar exert over their lives and their monstrous tendancies isn't out of some conception of guilt or good it is purely due to them having no choice or they die. Hence the Dark Eldar shouldn't possibly exist or all the Eldar should be Dark Eldar, either way they are completely redundant.

The common misconception from new hobbyists is that Eldar are the 40k version of High Elves when they were always the 40K version of Dark Elves. Hence Dark Eldar are totally redundant and pointless, it is like adding Dark Dark Elves to Warhammer...

**Skinnattittar**

FlingitNow wrote:The common misconception from new hobbyists is that Eldar are the 40k version of High Elves when they were always the 40K version of Dark Elves. Hence Dark Eldar are totally redundant and pointless, it is like adding Dark Dark Elves to Warhammer...

Please ignore this statement. It is quite incorrect in relevance to current background, and the background in general.

**FlingitNow**

Please ignore this statement. It is quite incorrect in relevance to current background, and the background in general.

They've tried to fudge it since bringing in the Dark Eldar the Eldar codex before last they'd turned the Eldar into High Elves. However they realised their mistake and they've tried to bring it back a bit in the last codex. Expect them to return the Eldar to their initial state in the next codex as they slowly write out the completely pointless and redundant Dark Eldar...

Read Rogue Trader, 40k Companion and/or the first Eldar Codex and you'll see I'm right the Eldar are the 40k equivalent of Dark Elves.

**Skinnattittar**

From everything I have read, I haven't read any of the WHFB Dark Elves admittedly, but I pay attention to small talk around the shop, but the Eldar aren't into the whole pirating others and such, but more about manipulating everyone else to their own ends, which isn't really malicious.

As far as the Eldar becoming more Grim Dark, have you read the other Codices lately? Everyone is taking a good injecting of Grim Dark as the Codices progress. As for the disolution of the Dark Eldar, I highly doubt it, and would be a little surprised.

But we're getting horribly off topic.... I mean REALLY off topic.

**FlingitNow**

But we're getting horribly off topic.... I mean REALLY off topic.

Good point well made

BS 4 firewarriors would be brilliant but they'd be just too good. However I don't see why they don't have BS6 fluff wise. I mean Sisters of battle have BS4 and they are women so I'd expect my BS to be at least 12 in comparison

I love the smell of feminism in the morning.

**kuro_khan**

I doubt BS 4 firewarriors would be overpowered.

A full squad of 12 FWs rapid firing some marines.

Currently at BS 3, that's 2.67 kills. At BS 4 it's 3.56 kills.

BS 4 gives the double FoF tactic a good chance at actually hurting a tac squad, rather than just making them more bald and angry.

One extra kill isn't going to tip any balance. Especially considering that FWs are widely considered underpowered.

Oh noes!! that makes it so that it only takes 1 Markerlight to boost to BS 5.

Considering the price of a markerlight and the fact that 1 more BS is only one more marine kill, all I have to say is, "big deal".

**FlingitNow**

Oh noes!! that makes it so that it only takes 1 Markerlight to boost to BS 5.

Considering the price of a markerlight and the fact that 1 more BS is only one more marine kill, all I have to say is, "big deal".

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However the impact of that would be big on how the Tau play (particularly FoF or Gunline). It means one Tau squad can expect to have a real chance of wiping out a Spacemarine Combat squad and 2 combining will generally kill about 9 marines requiring only 2 ML rather than 4.

This is significant because the best way to get ML into the army is with Pathfinders and the minimum unt size is 4. Which on average would get you 2 Mls a turn, meaning Tau could field more smaller units of firewarriors.

It would also mean the same for the suites and this is where the really big difference would be felt. They'd be a lot more independant. Deathrains could have flamers and still hit 8 out of 9 shots with the TL Missile pods. Shas'Els would be BS5 anyway again menaing you can save points on TA. The Hammerhead would have BS5 as standard! Broadsides would hit 8 out of 9 times as standard too!

Due to this Marker lights could be used to either help your firewarriors completely pummel a unit or help you Suites/Railheads ignore cover saves! Or destroy leadership for pinning, they'd be used far less for BS increases. This owuld make them far more useful as the BS increase is the first thing you have to use them for generally making that side of them almost redundant means you could pretty much strip cover from any unit you were shooting at...

**Skinnattittar**

Everyone always thinks their armies deserve a boost for this or a boost for that. You never really hear someone admit their army is overpowered or something is under priced and they want GW to fix it.

My point? The fluff supports BS3 Tau but not BS4 Tau. They lack depth perception, which is extremely important when trying to fire weapons at long range. No depth perception means no ability to properly judge range or orientation to non-linear paths, such as aiming a rifle or tracking a target. So a Tau without a helmet would probably be BS2 or even BS1! But they have a whole slew of advanced tech at hand so it helps them cope and gives them BS3. Those with BS4 either have even more tech and/or have experience, in the same way as Guard Vets are BS4 to the regular Guard's BS3.

**Kilkrazy**

The fluff doesn't matter, it is only there to support gameplay.

I disagree with making the BS 4 but if GW wanted to do it, all they need do is write some fluff saying all Fire Warriors now have a targetting array in their helmet. Bingo! BS=4.

Also, the fluff actually says Tau eyes focus more slowly than human. This doesn't matter much for distance shooting.