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Made in us
Screaming Shining Spear





Central Coast, California USA

Hey Mattyrm I edited my post a bit to elaborate my opinion more while you were making yours.

And come on the AF Combat Controller gets the same training as Berets and SEALs plus their set up air field training. They are very highly regarded in the spec ops community. And I put in SEAL to boot just in case. And the Air Force guy, my IRL brother in law, I put to create a level of difference in the example (even though I love the guy). I knew air force guy you'd give a little gak to.

In a genre like 40k even the mighty space marines can have special forces.

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Made in gb
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought





UK

MightyGodzilla wrote: Hey Mattyrm I edited my post a bit to elaborate my opinion more while you were making yours.

And come on the AF Combat Controller gets the same training as Berets and SEALs plus their set up air field training. They are very highly regarded in the spec ops community. And I put in SEAL to boot just in case. And the Air Force guy, my IRL brother in law, I put to create a level of difference in the example (even though I love the guy). I knew air force guy you'd give a little gak to.

In a genre like 40k even the mighty space marines can have special forces.


Fairy nuff mate.

The point is, Space Marines are ALL special forces. If you put a SEAL up against a truck driver, then we know the outcome. But if you put two soldiers of almost equal experience against each other, then lucks the biggest factor. War doesn't happen in slow motion. A slip, a trip, a step left instead of a step right, a weak spot in your TDA, a round hitting your eye lens and not two inches higher, a jammed bolter..

A BA terminator has as much chance of killing a DW terminator as vice versa. That's war, and its not like chess or solving math puzzles. Its fast, its noisy, and gak happens. You can be the best soldier in the world, but if your numbers up, your numbers up. If you put an ultimate bad ass against a fractionally less experienced ultimate bad ass, then its anyone's game.

For example, I AM the ultimate bad-ass, but your air force brother in law could still conceivably kill me.

Well... if I had a bad back or something.

Losers always whine about how life isn't fair, winners go home and feth the prom queen.

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Made in es
Guard Heavy Weapon Crewman




mattyrm wrote: But if you put two soldiers of almost equal experience against each other, then lucks the biggest factor.


This reminds me of "The Deadliest Warrior"

I've been reading the different ways of making DA unique, and I think they shouldn't take the "attribute +1" shortcut. Just because it doesn't make room for any other kind of answer in future codexes apart from another "attribute +1" to the enemy. I don't want to see (in a few years) WS 7 terminators, R 15 daemon princes, 4 CCW dreads...
I want tactics, ways I could use my troops that nobody else can (or not everybody can). That's what makes the difference, IMO.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/23 20:23:37


Any soldier caught under the influence of alcohol or any other inebriant while on his guard will be flogged then shot (Art. 0844/76b)  
   
Made in us
Screaming Shining Spear





Central Coast, California USA

Attribute +1 is kind of a fierce bonus on a system that uses D6's. You're literally talking about a 17% difference by giving a model a +1 on a D6 system. Here's what I thought. Deathwing have been fearless making them immune to morale. But Stubborn/Intractable/Fearless (whatever) is kind of messed up in hand to hand because because if you win the combat who cares (you're not using the attribute) and if you lose because you're Fearless your opponent gets extra hits on you because you can't run. What if a DA/DW special rule negated or reduced the hits on you should you lose a round of hand to hand?

IMO this gives you (or can at least) staying power in a hand to hand situation, but doesn't dictate the win. I just thought it was kind of good, but not game breaking.

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Sister Oh-So Repentia






Maybe Cypher can come back? Maybe...I hope..
   
Made in es
Guard Heavy Weapon Crewman




MightyGodzilla wrote: What if a DA/DW special rule negated or reduced the hits on you should you lose a round of hand to hand?


Good idea.

I have always seen Fearless troops very crazy because of those extra wounds (suits well on berserkers). Some mechanics working as you say could give a more tactical impression or at least, more cold blooded troops. This is the kind of uniqueness I would like to see.
Maybe that's the reason I like imperial guard: platoons are unique, there is nothing like this elsewhere in game.Or synapse in Tyranids...



Any soldier caught under the influence of alcohol or any other inebriant while on his guard will be flogged then shot (Art. 0844/76b)  
   
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Zweischneid wrote:Bleh. Forget about TL-AC Washingmachines

I want one of these...

Spoiler:




Pretty please?



OHHHH PLEASE!!!!!!!!

OHH great and benificent ward sprinkle you codex steroids upon us....... oh wait i said that out loud

i just want us to be the SHooty marine army whos main battle tactic is wall of firepower till the terminators arrive and tear you all up.

from a fluff perspective i'd kinda like 3rd company to becom the veteran company of Da and be shown in the force organization chart as vets who are a step below RW and DW


Artie Nelson: Y'know what the Talmud says? When someone's comin' to kill ya, get up early, kill 'em first. 
   
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I just want a Belial with eternal warrior. Although some of these comparisons are weak. I think I may have a better one. Take 2 experienced fighters equal in every way except one of them has done nothing but fight with a sword and shield were as the other one has trained with all kinds of melee weapon combinations. Now give them both a sword and shield and tell them to kill each other. I would put my money on the guy who has mastered the weapon rather then the guy who was become very skilled with lots. One knows everything that can be done with his systems. the other knows a few of these same tricks.

Also since when did the Blood Angels have to oldest Veterans seeing as all of their people go crazy and need to be killed off after a while.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/02/23 23:32:05


3200 points > 5400 points
2500 points 
   
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Gimlet-Eyed Inquisitorial Acolyte




Been lurking this thread for a while now and have been considering the difference between deathwing terminators opposed to normal termies.
First off, i don't think a +1 to BS or whatever makes them "unique." the rules in this game make armies unique. So that is where i would like to see some creative magic. For example what if Deathwing Termies, or maybe most of the infantry in the codex had a rule like this;
"Steadfast" - when a unit whit this rule is declared as the target of an assault, after all assaults have been declared, it may choose to take a leadership test. If it passes the test, before any assault moves are made, the unit may fire any rapid fire or assault weapons in it at a single enemy unit assaulting them. The enemy unit does not need to take any morale tests taken from losses, and calculates its cover save from its current position.


Something like this perhaps would better represent the dark angels stoic preference of ranged weaponry, and would differentiate terminators as well. So what do you guys think? Too OP?
   
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Secretive Dark Angels Veteran





Houston, TX

Too OP? Nah, nobody brings tactical termies in 5th.
   
Made in us
Myrmidon Officer





Cary, NC

leohart wrote:Too OP? Nah, nobody brings tactical termies in 5th.
Which is the most absurd thing about this edition of Marinehammer.

When everything is special, nothing is special.
GW has taken this to the extreme and they made 'special' the norm.

Now we're here debating how Dark Angels can carve a niche in order to be more special than special.

 
   
Made in us
Screaming Shining Spear





Central Coast, California USA

Absolutionis wrote:...the most absurd thing about this edition of Marinehammer.
When everything is special, nothing is special.
GW has taken this to the extreme and they made 'special' the norm.

Now we're here debating how Dark Angels can carve a niche in order to be more special than special.


QFT

But I wouldn't say moar special than special. More like as special as special. Like it or not the precident has been set. Many many codices before this one. GW may be a model company, but it knows that it'll sell about a hundred times those models if people have a reason to play with, as opposed to just painting them up.

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Longtime Dakkanaut




ZebioLizard2 wrote:Why would plasma even be a theme to consider? The SoB Aren't defined by flamers and melta (Even if they use a lot of it) Same with the Blood Angels.

To define the theme around ONE type of weapon is a silly endeavor to begin with...


Wow, someone spoken in ignorance. You do know that SOB are known by the "holy trinity" bolter, melta and flamer? Yes that is one of their defining features.

Hope more old fools come to their senses and start giving you their money instead of those Union Jack Blood suckers...  
   
Made in us
Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord





carmachu wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:Why would plasma even be a theme to consider? The SoB Aren't defined by flamers and melta (Even if they use a lot of it) Same with the Blood Angels.

To define the theme around ONE type of weapon is a silly endeavor to begin with...


Wow, someone spoken in ignorance. You do know that SOB are known by the "holy trinity" bolter, melta and flamer? Yes that is one of their defining features.


ONE of their defining features. Does faith not matter? Does not being an entirely female regiment not count? Special Sisters with jump packs with dual pistols (That can shoot separately) not count? A Guardsman Statline with power armor not count? They have plenty of things to define them, they are not simply defined by their three main weapons.

What everyone was proposing was that they would be Marines with Plasma as their only defining theme. Which means they would have nothing special but Deathwing (not to special anymore) Ravenwing (Also not as special thanks to biker marines)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/24 02:16:55


 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
The World Killer.




The best State-Texas

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
carmachu wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:Why would plasma even be a theme to consider? The SoB Aren't defined by flamers and melta (Even if they use a lot of it) Same with the Blood Angels.

To define the theme around ONE type of weapon is a silly endeavor to begin with...


Wow, someone spoken in ignorance. You do know that SOB are known by the "holy trinity" bolter, melta and flamer? Yes that is one of their defining features.


ONE of their defining features. Does faith not matter? Does not being an entirely female regiment not count? Special Sisters with jump packs with dual pistols (That can shoot separately) not count? A Guardsman Statline with power armor not count? They have plenty of things to define them, they are not simply defined by their three main weapons.

What everyone was proposing was that they would be Marines with Plasma as their only defining theme. Which means they would have nothing special but Deathwing (not to special anymore) Ravenwing (Also not as special thanks to biker marines)




Yeah, I agree. When I think of SOB, I think of Fire, Faith and a female army. Not just having a lot bolters/flamers/meltas.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/24 02:19:56


4000
4000
6000+ Order. Unity. Obedience.
Just starting! 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




ZebioLizard2 wrote:

ONE of their defining features. Does faith not matter? Does not being an entirely female regiment not count? Special Sisters with jump packs with dual pistols (That can shoot separately) not count? A Guardsman Statline with power armor not count? They have plenty of things to define them, they are not simply defined by their three main weapons.

What everyone was proposing was that they would be Marines with Plasma as their only defining theme. Which means they would have nothing special but Deathwing (not to special anymore) Ravenwing (Also not as special thanks to biker marines)



Again, spoken like someone who never picked up a sister models. Its definately one of their defining features. Yes, female counts- the whole episode of "no men under arms" after Vadaire lead heresy/war/incident.. Faith- sometimes count, depending on when you picked them up. Faith wasnt all that important in the snd ed, 3rd edition, or CA army list. Faith only came into its own in WH codex.

They are very well defined, tactically and thematically, by their main weapons,. As I said earlier, there is a reason its called the holy trinity.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/24 03:38:07


Hope more old fools come to their senses and start giving you their money instead of those Union Jack Blood suckers...  
   
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H.B.M.C. wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:It's not simply a case of "being privy to deep dark secrets". It's "being privy to deep dark secrets and being one of those who have survived facing traitors who have waged war against the Imperium for millenia".


Nah, look, I gotto side with Shummy on this one.

His BA Terminator comparison is quite apt here. I could certainly see a Deathwing Marine getting different training than other more standard 1st Company Vets (compare the 1st Company Vet speciality and the Deathwing Speciality in Deathwatch) but this 'inner circle' thing wouldn't make them 'better' by any reasonable margin, and certainly not compared to someone who is more of a veteran than they are (ie. BA's and their successors).


This is a bit late of an entry into this conversation, but let me pose the point in a different light:

To normalize the Space Marine movement through the 1st company, they are a veteran for perhaps a century, before moving back to another company as a veteran sergeant, then either moving to become a Captain or perhaps taking a lateral step up to become a 1st company Veteran Sergeant. So, only the 1st company sergeants are really the longest serving in Terminator armor.

However, in the Deathwing, you don't cycle back out into the other companies. The company veterans grow up into the veteran sergeant roles. So, these guys wear Terminator armor until the enemy kills them or they become Inner Circle and can be a captain or chaplain or librarian, etc etc. They simply serve in the suit for longer than any other chapters veterans.

To say that the Blood Angels live longer is comparative, as the rate at which they die in fluff and books, it seems rather unreasonable that any marine would live more than 200 years, as the gene maturation process could never make enough new marines to backfill all the losses that we see them losing. It would take a century to replace losing 2 or 3 companies of marines, yet we read about that in the codex fluff regularly. How many centuries to find enough quality boys, implant them, mature them and train them to bring the Crimson Fists back from being nearly wiped out? So, to point at the Blood Angels and say they have the most highly trained Terminators because they live longer is pointless, as no more than 1 in a hundred would statistically live to be 500, and we can't say how many out of those 10 (normalized for a chapter of 1000) would or has succumbed to the Black Rage. Plus, these would necessarily, logically, be the most experienced, and be the chapters captains and senior leaders, not line infantry in Terminator Armor.

Sorry to inject actual military thinking into your discussion. You can return to discussing fantastical science fiction reality, which has been hodge podged over the last 25 years!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/24 03:48:55


 
   
Made in us
Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord





carmachu wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:

ONE of their defining features. Does faith not matter? Does not being an entirely female regiment not count? Special Sisters with jump packs with dual pistols (That can shoot separately) not count? A Guardsman Statline with power armor not count? They have plenty of things to define them, they are not simply defined by their three main weapons.

What everyone was proposing was that they would be Marines with Plasma as their only defining theme. Which means they would have nothing special but Deathwing (not to special anymore) Ravenwing (Also not as special thanks to biker marines)



Again, spoken like someone who never picked up a sister models. Its definately one of their defining features. Yes, female counts- the whole episode of "no men under arms" after Vadaire lead heresy/war/incident.. Faith- sometimes count, depending on when you picked them up. Faith wasnt all that important in the snd ed, 3rd edition, or CA army list. Faith only came into its own in WH codex.

They are very well defined, tactically and thematically, by their main weapons,. As I said earlier, there is a reason its called the holy trinity.


Right than, we can easily get rid of Sisters of Battle and replace them with the Salamanders than. Their fame is Bolters, Flamers, melta, and TH/SS. SoB Must be a very boring army if all that one can claim for them is those three weapons.

Did you ever pick up the previous books? Faith used to be called Sacred rights, which would grant them benefits (as faith does now, though it was a single D6 + Sister Superior types giving a benefit to it), not to mention as Relics were their special cards, along with the rest of the Adeptas Minisorium. The Canoness being able to take two relic cards as a benefit. Which is indeed something different from the "Holy Trinity". My favorites being the old Blade of Admonition, and the Praesidium Protectiva. I would love for faith and relics to be brought back as they were, but as it is we have to deal with Faith as it has been given us now, and the pitiful selection of "relics", which they've even gotten rid of the Book of ST. Lucius

Chapter Approved Was when Sacred Rights became Acts of Faith, and they became like their previous incarnation in the WH codex, and there was no 3rd edition SoB, that was when it became Witch Hunters.

Hopefully the 6th edition will bring them back to glory, and bring back Saint Praxedes, and Helena the Virtuous, army wide hatred (Preferred enemy as it is now) was very nice in its day.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/24 04:09:55


 
   
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Bounding Black Templar Assault Marine




Waco TX

ShumaGorath wrote:Aren't the blood angels librarians supposed to be the most powerful of the loyalist legions since they're the longest lived? Hence Mephiston. The Ultramarines have tigurious, arguably one of the most powerful marine psykers in history. The GKs are all psychic and their librarians have like, nemesis doom brains. Chapters like the exorcists or the blood ravens are supposed to have exceptionally powerful librarians due to unorthodox training techniques or simple genetic preference.

I'm having a hard time really understanding why the dark angels get:

The most powerful terminators
The most powerful librarians
The most powerful and common high technology weapons
The most powerful vehicular platforms
Et cetera

Where is all this coming from? I know their fluff states that they're the best thing ever, but so does every other marine armies fluff. If there is going to be an actual boost in capability over the run of the mill regular 200 year old superhuman god man that trains 22 hours a day in game than it needs to be a bit more legit than "Well they interrogate people a lot" in my humble opinion.


Finaly after like 8 pages I thought no one was going to say anything to these DA guys, but you forgot one:

The most powerful chaplains/ read that one a hundred times on here already as well

And as for this whole strongest thing period, I would like to see uniqueness(does that mean more power?). What i mean is i want to see new rules and unique ones i dont want to see terminator squads that can field ranged/cc weapons in the same squad with BS 5 and be able to shoot the enemy before they get charged, and be able to charge themselves after they deepstrike( <----that one will never happen that would be like a /lose to whoever you play against). The thing you all have to remember is that this game is funner when it is a challenge so to get alot of that stuff will make it to..for lack of better words, easy to win.

What DA need is some new rules that allow them to play a "different" army. I want to see all UNIQUE marine chapters be just that UNIQUE.
DA---- something i think would be cool is a way to intricate them to hunt the fallen idk how but im not sitting around all day trying to find a way out either
BA----space marines who prefer cc and are really bad at holding their temper
SW----harry space marines who like to ride even harrier animals and prefer CC
BT----a more deep strike based army who again prefer CC (something unique like that when they get their new book)
C: SM----(well all i want from these guys is for them not to steal the best things from the prevous chapters mentioned)

and as for that chaos marine who mentioned eralier on page 10 about molding these chapters into one book i dont agree/ although i do agree that it suckes royal when they continually smash chaos into one book, i am ready to see them split up( butg i am ready for that with eldar as well and i think it would be interesting to see with orc's as well.

My 2 cents take it or leave it

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NO FEAR!  
   
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Brigadier General





Texas

Cain wrote:
and as for that chaos marine who mentioned eralier on page 10 about molding these chapters into one book i dont agree/ although i do agree that it suckes royal when they continually smash chaos into one book, i am ready to see them split up( butg i am ready for that with eldar as well and i think it would be interesting to see with orc's as well.


Huh, first person I've seen to ever suggest orks should get split books

Anyways back to the robed greenies

 
   
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Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord





kenshin620 wrote:
Cain wrote:
and as for that chaos marine who mentioned eralier on page 10 about molding these chapters into one book i dont agree/ although i do agree that it suckes royal when they continually smash chaos into one book, i am ready to see them split up( butg i am ready for that with eldar as well and i think it would be interesting to see with orc's as well.


Huh, first person I've seen to ever suggest orks should get split books

Anyways back to the robed greenies


Most people don't really remember that there's actual Clans with actual differences in fighting style and different ways of doing things. Not to mention sometimes vastly different tech from each other due to the weird ways Meks work at times.
   
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Melbourne, Australia

Love the idea of chaplians unit or even Srgt's......or even an "inner circle" dedicated veteran choice like the most fanatical members

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Dark Angels Neophyte Undergoing Surgeries






I used to play DA in 3rd edition, I loved the fluff, and I loved the fact that fluff wise your army didn't all have to be the same color.

Numerous chaplains in the list is lame. Did you happen to come across a dozen or so fallen all together in one spot, that if captured, will all need to be tortured simultaneously? A chaplain elite choice (or one that doesn't take up a FOC slot) seems fine.

Must we be the plasma army in the era of "let's take melta instead because it reliably kills tanks"?

I never got that Deathwing were supposed to be moar elite than other terminators. Better equipment, sure, but not stronger/faster/trained better. Mixed assault/tactical weapon squads as well as sternguard special issue ammunition on their storm bolters seems fair to me without getting too carried away.

I don't think the Deathwing are any less skilled than the other chapters either. IMHO, I've always thought the DA would be just as likely to execute one of their own as induct them into the Deathwing for stumbling across some goofy secret. "Johnson? He was transferred to another unit. Carry on"

I think the DA have some of the best fluff in the game, but let's not let that affect and nerf our codex. I expect that if they get a new codex, it should be as powerful if not slightly moreso (following the usual codex creep) than SW, BA, GK

Namaan would make for a good character dreadnought. Ravenwing?

And for the love of God, let's hope the archeotech doesn't include DA wielding Lion Claws, riding cybernetically enhanced Lions that are equipped with Lion Claws x4, whose models won't be released for two or more years.
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





Southend-on-Sea

I saw a rumour on the internet that DA may have Plasma-cannon sponsons on their LR's
   
Made in gb
Bloodthirsty Chaos Knight






Trechor wrote:I

I never got that Deathwing were supposed to be moar elite than other terminators. Better equipment, sure, but not stronger/faster/trained better. Mixed assault/tactical weapon squads as well as sternguard special issue ammunition on their storm bolters seems fair to me without getting too carried away.

I don't think the Deathwing are any less skilled than the other chapters either. IMHO, I've always thought the DA would be just as likely to execute one of their own as induct them into the Deathwing for stumbling across some goofy secret. "Johnson? He was transferred to another unit. Carry on"

I think the DA have some of the best fluff in the game, but let's not let that affect and nerf our codex. I expect that if they get a new codex, it should be as powerful if not slightly moreso (following the usual codex creep) than SW, BA, GK


And for the love of God, let's hope the archeotech doesn't include DA wielding Lion Claws, riding cybernetically enhanced Lions that are equipped with Lion Claws x4, whose models won't be released for two or more years.


Exactly. It's not about being more elite than other terminators it's about the DA and their following chapters having the more archaic things like a LOT of terminator armour and also equipment for said armour. While they will have trained long and hard with loadout of choice that can be kept as shown in mixed loadout, though something to make SB/PF terminators with a heavy weapon in the mix would be great. It gets the deathwing away from all TH/SS and cyclones. Do like the touch about about "transfers" .

I am hoping beyond hope that all codexes/codicies all eventually come into line with each other, and that the DA are not the new "lets bitch and whine about marines being OP". Except GK ofcourse, feel free to keep going until they stop being an army and are single squads again . And please no dreadknight rehash, I thouroughly despise the model...

Now, off to keep researching bone painting techniques as I'm stripping my old deathwing terminators and giving them some new loving

   
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Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought





Paso Robles, CA, USA

leohart wrote:Too OP? Nah, nobody brings tactical termies in 5th.


I do, and I believe Hulksmash does as well. They are really useful in an all termie army that has limited shooting.

My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings.
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Chris Gohlinghorst wrote:Holy Space Marine on a Stick.

This conversation has even begun to boggle my internet-hardened mind.

A More Wretched Hive of Scum and Villainy 
   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

To be fair though Ozy, most people don't bring all Termie armies either.

The views expressed in the above post are my own views and unless stated otherwise I do not, in any way, shape or form, speak for or on the behalf of Fantasy Flight Games.

 
   
Made in fr
Longtime Dakkanaut




West Midlands (UK)

H.B.M.C. wrote:To be fair though Ozy, most people don't bring all Termie armies either.


Though it is still a shame that the Deathwing-obsession has so eclipsed the rest of an interesting and far more nuanced chapter (in ways Loganwing or Draigowing honestly haven't).

I almost wish they drop the all-Deathwing option entirely and focus more strongly again on the guys in green.

   
Made in gb
Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets





TyraelVladinhurst wrote:almost correct, but black templar's have almost 4 times as many chaplains as any other chapter


By ratio, or by numbers? As they're also supposed to have 3-4 times the number of active Astartes as the other Chapters, too...

Codex: Grey Knights touched me in the bad place... 
   
 
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