Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

- Strategic and thematic focus: Wood Elves use similar tactics to Apache braves and Celtic barbarians; a lot of hit-and-run kind of stuff.
A well-laid ambush does seem to be in line with Wood Elves. But then again, there's a rule for Ambush, and none of them have that.
Both this Fandex and the current book portray Wood Elves as a high Movement army with lots of Skirmishers, and a focus on small, elite units. That, all on its own, makes them best suited to keeping out of their opponent's charge-arcs, baiting charges, counter-charges, etc. I think that's all they need to be "Wood" Elves, along with a rule or two about forests.
Also, yes, Wood Elves have M9 horses.

I hate the "1 free forest" rule. It's contrived and lazy. My games usually involve each player picking half the terrain, and I've played Wood Elf generals who've picked nothing but forests every time. Because the 1 they get for free isn't as good as having 6 of them. But that's not as good as having 11 of them. Etc.

I think that, with Forest Walkers and Treesinging, they benefit from forests without relying on them.
The Watchtower scenario is a totally unrelated situation. That's both armies being given the same alternate win condition, not one army getting a series of benefits from it.

The problem I see with Wildgrowth, beyond the idea of summoning several forests every turn, is that the "counter", which is for your opponent to dispel them on his turn, is still a pretty useful outcome for Wood Elves.
The range of the spell and further limiting it is a solid idea. The only issue I have there is Spellsingers on Elven Steeds. M9 means you can make forests pop up pretty much where ever they'll be most obnoxious.

Well, the question as to why they don't have Ambush IS a good one. Everything else you've said makes sense - have you playtested this list yet?

And yeah, good point about the Wildgrowth thing. But, keep in mind, it's just the sig. Just because they're guaranteed to have it, doesn't mean they can cast it more than once per caster. I mean, you'd have to have multiple Spellsingers on horses to be an issue. Otherwise, all the other spellsingers are just walking. And if you spam lots of low level spellsingers in order to spam Wildgrowth, then they're more easily dispelled by enemy level 4s, regardless of whether or not you put them all on horses. And if there's only one spellsinger on a horse, well... then THAT'S the one you make sure that you dispel because it's clearly going to be the one that's most obnoxious.

I've only been able to run a few games with this list a few times, and that was before a handful of the latest updates. That, and the possible enemies to face them is Dwarfs, Skaven, Orcs & Goblins (but only one list) and, if we play at low point levels, Lizardmen.
Anyone else is welcome to try it out, though. Truth be told, I think me and my friend would be flattered, and I'd be thrilled for the feedback.
A possibility: Scouts, War Dancers, and Waywatchers have Ambush? Something like that.

As for Wildgrowth, consider something like: you run a lvl4 and a lvl2 on horses/eagles. You roll up everything except Oaken Armour and Hidden Path. You get 7 power dice, they get 4 or 5.
Your level 2 could 2-die Wildgrowth. Then your lvl4 2-die's Faerie Fire, Wildgrowth, and Fury of the Forest. That's an average magic phase, with an average amount of points spent on casters, playing to the odds, with four spells that affect your opponent's movement, of which they can reliably stop two.

Maybe that says more about the Lore than anything, though.

I don't know; would you really rather have Wildgrowth as a Sig over Fury of the Forest? I guess this what I'm getting hung up on:

What, strategically, do forests do for the Wood Elves, that they cannot do in some other way?

Yeah, but isn't that an average magic phase for just about everybody? Shadow casters are doing the same thing with ridiculous Miasma. And imagine that same scenario, where Fury of the Forest is the sig instead of Wildgrowth. Then those two casters are casting Fury, Fury, Faerie Fire, and Wildgrowth. Wildgrowth and one of the Furies are dispelled. That means Faerie Fire and Fury both get through, which is... exactly the same thing that happens when Wildgrowth is the sig.

As for what forests do... well, there's forest walkers and aerial agility. It's not that the forests do something that they can't otherwise do - it's that forests can be ignored by Wood Elves but can't be ignored by many of their enemies.

Though, I understand that forests are generally just meaningless anyway. But that being said, they're partially meaningless for Wood Elves because you haven't given them any abilities that take advantage of them.

As an example, when I played Wood Elves many moons ago, Waywatchers had an ability where they set traps in the forest that they were bunkered in. If an enemy unit charged them in that forest, the traps were sprung and gave bonuses.

So I feel like this is what it comes down to: Wildgrowth doesn't need to be the sig in your current incarnation because Woods don't do jack for Wood Elves. The side effect regards whether or not Wood Elves should feel like they're more tied to forests. If they should be tied to forests, then they should probably have more abilities to reflect those ties, and Wildgrowth can be made the sig. If they don't need these ties, then nothing needs to change. Though I might suggest the addition of a bound spell magic item that simply contains Wildgrowth, similar to the Vampire Counts' Book of Arkhan containing Vanhel's Danse Macabre.

And I know you said the fluff tries to protray them as fast moving, shooty, guerilla dudes. But are there many stories in the fluff for Wood Elves in which they actually leave Athel Loren? Or are they literally always fighting in a forest?

- an excellent point about Miasma. But since Shadow is probably the #1 best Lore right now, I don't think we should compare it to this one.
...but I think Shadow is overall better than Athel Loren; plenty of control options, and then plenty of damaging ones, too. So I think we're safe there.

- Here's what Forests really do for Wood Elves: they make Skirmishers Steadfast and they strip Steadfast from everyone else. That is easily the Best Thing about Forests in 8th.
See, I think this is a much better way of going about it; the core set of rules, as well as the basic stats of this army, lends to a certain style of play. Wood Elves don't need the Forest-Awesome-Tree-Tree-Tree Special Rule, where they get a +1 to their Ward saves and re-roll charge distances. Because Forests provide an advantage for small, maneuverable units, and Wood Elves have those aplenty.

- I had tried Waywatchers with a Traps special rule in an earlier incarnation, but took it out, to keep them cheaper.

- as for ties to Forests, Wood Elves have Forest Walkers, Aerial Agility, Treesinging, and Wildgrowth. Do you think they need more?
I really want to avoid the "there's no Forests on this table? Good game." scenario. I feel like Wood Elves are currently more tied to the terrain than any other army, while still being capable without it.
I do like the Wildgrowth bound item, though. 30pts, Power Level 4? And which Enchanted Item should I take out?

- Yeah, yeah, Wood Elves fight in the woods. But how many stories involve the Dwarfs fighting for something that's not one of their Holds, or of Skaven who didn't begin the fight by tunneling out from under the other army. or Tomb Kings not in the desert?
Sometimes, people play games where the armies and terrain don't make any sense. There's nothing stopping them. If you want Wood Elves to play in the woods, look to your opponent, not the rule book.

Warpsolution wrote:
-Forest-Awesome-Tree-Tree-Tree

Hahahahahaha

All good points, of course. You've essentially convinced me at this point. The only thing I can really think of is that a table without forests contains, to a skirmishing army, all of the same difficulties that a Wood Elf list with lots of special rules would have. Though I admit that a skirmishing army would probably feel better to play on the tabletop regardless of the circumstances than would an army only with special rules tied to forests.

As for the magic item, The Book of Arkhan is 35 points and power level 3 if I'm not mistaken. And it's arguably a better spell, all things considered. As for which one to take out, I'm not sure. They all seem good and I can see a place for each of them in a TAC list. The only thing that comes to mind is that they're all arrows - you might want a little more variety, even if it is just one item (the bound spell).

You've convinced me. That item needs to exist.
Though, I think for now, I'll just add it in there; one of the unique aspects to Wood Elves, for me, was their selection of magic arrows. 5 Enchanted Items isn't overkill. If anything, Spites are the real issue.

And now that the new Lizardman book is out, I need to ask: how are people finding Terradon Riders? Because they seem like a prime model for Warhawk Riders, though the Elven versions will have to be a bit pricier.

Yeah, true, 5 items isn't a big deal. And yeah, I really like the magic arrows also.

As for the Lizardmen, by "model" I'm assuming you mean, like, the stats and rules and stuff? And not the actual, physical model?

Oh, Horned Rat below, yes. Stats and rules. Not the plastic bits.
As cool as the new Terradon models are, they're still far from hawks.

Can someone put their stats up here? I'm thinking they'll cost more for the boost to WS, BS, I, and Ld, and their equipment is better, too, right?
Now, as far as Drop Rocks goes versus Rake, I think that dealing one S4 hit/model on one unit they've passed over each phase is undoubtably better than D3 S4 hits/model once per game, but maybe not by as big a factor as we'd assume? I mean, there's something to be said about doing more wounds in less time.

Thoughts?

Hahahaha gotcha

I don't have the stats, but there's another good comparison in the VC book - Hexwraiths. They're fast cav and they do S5 hits on pass-through. The hits are magical and flaming, and the Hexwraiths themselves are ethereal (so terrain is irrelevant, just like with flyers). The movement is 8, which isn't THAT much less than a flyer's 10, but the real catch with them is that they can't march outside the general's bubble, whereas elves will probably pass the leadership test to march-fly even within 8 inches of an enemy.

As for which is better... it's hard to say. I would actually probably vote on D3 hits being better. I mean, it all depends on whether or not you think they're going to get caught in melee. One hit per model is so low that, even over the course of a normal game, I don't see them making an impact on the power troops in 8th (huge blocks of rank and file). And the other types of units that these attacks would be good against, like war machines, are weak enough that you could probably just charge them.

A lot of people like Hexwraiths but being ethereal is a major bonus for close combat that hawks wouldn't have.

Hard to say.

I don't know WE at all. They're poopy. But you could have a RIP spell that creates a single mundane forest. That way it could be dispelled, blocked, and you could only have one. And it could be placeable. With limitations like it couldn't crop up in a volcano or other terrain.

1. No more Hail of Doom makes me a sad puppy.

2. The black arrows could potentially make some VC or TK players scream bloody murder.

3. What's up with the scouts being all arround worse than glade guards, but costing 3pts more?

@DrunkPhilisoph:

1. I feel your grief, but every time I see an "auto-take" item, I feel the need to get rid of it.

2. Yeah, but if you want to spend over 200pts on a character that has a 5.5% chance of killing their character, with no other real purpose, let alone protection, you're welcome to try, I say!

3. Wow! Don't know how that happened.
Scouts are supposed to be Glade Guard with the skirmish upgrade and, well, Scout.
I'm going to blame lots of editing, copy/pasting, and the errant key stroke or two on that one. Thanks for point it out!

I think the wardancer kindred should get a buff to weapon skill and initiative. Since wardancers have higher ws/I then other wood elf units. Right now an average wardancer has ws equall to a noble. It's obvious a wardancer heroe or lord will be more skilled then an average wardancer.
For instance a branch wraith has a higher Intiative then a noble since dryads have higher Intiative then most wood elf units.

Yeah, they probably should get a bonus to WS/I. I'm just kind of wondering whether or not Kindreds should even be a thing; the other Elven armies don't do that, even though it would make just as much sense for them.
That, and with Spites and such, Wood Elves have ways to stand out anyway.

WS and I are okay, but there's got to be a cut-off, too. Wild Rider Lords will not be S5 A5+frenzy base, or they'll cost too much.

Let them cost a lot. Wood elvs are not a cheap army, they are not ment to be cheap. Indeed they are a very expensive army. The cheapest unit costs 12 points per model. Do you know any other army who's cheapest unit costs more than or equall to 12 points per model.

Any way a character with 6 S4/S5(attacks during the charge) is no one superior when you concider his low survivality. A wild rider lord has T3/4(if he mounts a great stag) W3 SV5+ and INV 5+.
I don't think such a character brakes the balance , he can dish out a lot of damage , but it's still risky to deploy him as he can easily be slain . This would be especially painfull if he would cost a lot of points.

I really think the fun of wood elfs is that you ussually are outnumbered( since WE are very costly) , your units are fragile, but you get the ability to outflank the opponent and do a lot of damage at the same time.

That's why it's fine if We characters are expensive.

Wood elvs do ineed stand out with the kindred idea, but other armies like DE have a character for every major unit.
For instance they have a Malus darkblade as a character for coldone knights, characters assigned to a unit of black guard and excutioners who's names I don't recall.

By how much do you think the Ws/I of wardancer kindred should be improved ?

Well, a kindred should cost the sum of all of it's parts.

So Ward saves increase their cost by about 15pts/+1, WS and I around +5-10pts/+1, and then S and A for +20pts/+1. Then there's the special abilities. 20-30pts for Frenzy and Killing Blow, etc.
If we take a Wardancer (WS6 I6 A2, with a 5+ Ward and Killing Blow) or a Wild Rider (WS5 S4 A2, with a 4+ Ward and Frenzy), and make them templates, you're paying +95 and +115pts, respectively.
And a Wild Rider character would, if we made them as proportional to Wild Riders as normal characters are to normal Elves, be S5 base, S6 on the charge.

And that's just going off of how much basic bonuses like the Sword of Might cost, so there's not really much room for interpretation. And since none of the above things take up slots, one could easily argue that they should even cost a little more.
I know full well that they're an elite army. But "elite" is one thing. A combat Lord with T3 who costs 250pts+ before items is another.

And yes, the fact that the other Elf armies have Special Characters is indeed known to me. Which is yet another reason why I think Kindred should be dropped. No one else does it. Just make more Special Characters.

I'm fine with dropping the kindreds as long as the wardancer character has ws + I higher than average wardancer. When it comes to wildrider character he could have 6 S6 attacks on a charge. It's not the end of the world. In the last DE edition( did't play against DE from 8th edition) you could upgrade lord on coldone so he had 6 S6 attacks on the turn he charged. Wildrider character would be less durable, but more mobile, when comparing to the DE Lord.

Of course he'll have a higher WS/I. That's just common sense. As I said, I agree. But yeah, I think we'll drop Kindreds.

The problem is, the Wild Rider character is S6 A6 without any items. How about S6 A9? Or S9 A6? Oh! How about the Ogre Blade, the Helm of the Hunt, and Aura of Flashes, for 7 WS9 S8 ASF I9 attacks? Or just leave his attacks as-is, and give him a 2+ re-rollable armour save, along with his 5 or 4+ Ward.
That's just silliness.

A link to credible sounding wood elf rumors.
You will find a translation of the rumors not made by the computer in the middle of page 4.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?382516-Wood-Elf-Rumor-Thread