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Uncle Fester wrote:
I equate "the time is right" in the same way Cthullu cultists do, by ages. It is difficult not to by cynical, but it is disheartening that plastic Sisters have joined, or even surfaced, the plastic Thunder Hawk on the believability of rumors.

Really, it's been this way for years.

 Melissia wrote:

Uncle Fester wrote:
I equate "the time is right" in the same way Cthullu cultists do, by ages. It is difficult not to by cynical, but it is disheartening that plastic Sisters have joined, or even surfaced, the plastic Thunder Hawk on the believability of rumors.

Really, it's been this way for years.

I actually have a $ bet with my local blackshirt store manager. He bet me that Plastic Sister's would be out before 2015...the fool

Jes did imply that they have at least considered SOB and he said he would only approach a full army update if he could give it the attention the DE received in 5th ed, i.e. a whole line of new minis, new units, vehicles, etc. He kind of suggested I felt that they had toyed with SOB but could not develop enough ideas and enthusiasm to do a full on army. That was just my take on what he said. All he did say for certain was that they were not going away and would at some point receive some kind of attention.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

TO&E? What is that?

Table of Organization and equipment.

Well, I was rather nasty there. My apologies .

Fact is, I would have, for example, liked a unit of Celestines for an HQ squad completely in helmets.

I like the SoB a lot, so frankly change WORRIES, ANNOYS, SCARES me. But it's a preference , not Holy writ. So, again, my apologies, for what thats worth.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Troike wrote:

Oh, could you elaborate on this? I'm curious, what do you think makes the Sisters less distasteful than the rest of the Ecclesiarchy?

Well , You didn't ask me, and my reply won't exactly conform to your question.

But there doesn't seem to be another , " Let's talk about SoB " Thread, and why make another thread anyway when this one is doing fine ?

There is another thread regarding the least douchbaggy faction........

To me the Ecclesiarchy , and its militant arm the SoB , are the least grim, least depressing , least dismal faction in the 40k universe . Why ? I alluded to it in passing. Of course there is lots of ambiguity and vagueness in what is in print , but what I can gleen from it, or read into it, is their focus is not on material riches that rot or rust away. Nor on , " The Greater Good " . The Greater Good ? That's a hoot . Like I alluded to , it's a life where even the rich and the beautiful and the beloved can be miserable. And even if, hypothetically your actions might somehow eventually bring about Utopia, its a utopia countless millions will never live to see.
I think the Emperor is a false God, and the creed would be a great deal better with the suggestion that abhumans, psykers, and xenos might wind up at the foot of the golden throne too.
But as it stands , its the only game in town. Looking to any other faction ; it's killing folks for what neither of you can hold on to.
It isn't the only faction committing atrocities and where those are concerned , I recall how a relatively fat and happy and free people in the UK reacted to the IRA terror campaign of the 70's , or how my own country reacted to 9-11 , and all of that is downright trivial in comparison to intelligent 6 foot tall cockroaches actively trying to bump you off. How might one react to that ? Not well i'm afraid.

---------

I'd like to see an enclosed Taurus Vernator , no heavy guns , that merely carries 6 battle sisters like in Hammer and Anvil. Not exactly an ambitious addition to the line. And yeah they already have the rhino and the repressor , but no simple wheeled vehicles is annoying.

Isengard wrote:
Interesting. I was there too and I did not get the impression that something SOB related was coming. Jes threw in an off-hand comment to the effect that they could probably use the new release schedule to fit something in, speculating that a single box could cover most of the options for SOB. I did not get the sense that SOB were planned. I did get the impression that they were in their thoughts and would definitely return at some point but most likely in a limited way with a couple of releases. To be fair I would imagine that a well-designed box like the scions or sternguard could cover most of the units in one go. What Jes did say unequivocally and openly was that SOB are part of the game and won't go away. He distinguished them from Squats who were written out at an early stage of the game whereas SOB are in and will stay. I got the feeling it was something they had on the back-burner and would do something with but probably a small release like the Inquisition or militarum tempestus releases. [...] Jes did imply that they have at least considered SOB and he said he would only approach a full army update if he could give it the attention the DE received in 5th ed, i.e. a whole line of new minis, new units, vehicles, etc. He kind of suggested I felt that they had toyed with SOB but could not develop enough ideas and enthusiasm to do a full on army. That was just my take on what he said. All he did say for certain was that they were not going away and would at some point receive some kind of attention.

Thanks for the report. Nice to see Goodwin saying that the SoB won't go away, if nothing else. Though I kinda had that impression already.

Reading this along with the others, one can get a pretty clear idea of what happened, even if the various authors seem to have slightly different perceptions of what was said.

 KesaAnna wrote:
To me the Ecclesiarchy , and its militant arm the SoB , are the least grim, least depressing , least dismal faction in the 40k universe . Why ? I alluded to it in passing. Of course there is lots of ambiguity and vagueness in what is in print , but what I can gleen from it, or read into it, is their focus is not on material riches that rot or rust away. Nor on , " The Greater Good " . The Greater Good ? That's a hoot . Like I alluded to , it's a life where even the rich and the beautiful and the beloved can be miserable. And even if, hypothetically your actions might somehow eventually bring about Utopia, its a utopia countless millions will never live to see. [...] But as it stands , its the only game in town. Looking to any other faction ; it's killing folks for what neither of you can hold on to.

An interesting take on it. So you're saying that their purity of commitment to a sort of "faithful utopia" elevates them above other factions? I can see what you're getting at, though I don't see it that way. I think that they're very grimdark. They might be very sincere about their goal, but they think nothing of doing awful things to achieve it. These are the people who brutally supress any and all things that don't fit in with their religion, and they'll eagerly apply methods such as torture, conversion into a Flagellant or burning people alive.

I do think that their sheer faith definetely lends them an element of heroism as a faction, though they are still some very nasty people to be on the wrong side of.

 Troike wrote:
An interesting take on it. So you're saying that their purity of commitment to a sort of "faithful utopia" elevates them above other factions? I can see what you're getting at, though I don't see it that way. I think that they're very grimdark. They might be very sincere about their goal, but they think nothing of doing awful things to achieve it. These are the people who brutally supress any and all things that don't fit in with their religion, and they'll eagerly apply methods such as torture, conversion into a Flagellant or burning people alive.

I do think that their sheer faith definetely lends them an element of heroism as a faction, though they are still some very nasty people to be on the wrong side of.

I wouldn't say they think nothing of it, but given the alternative, it is something they must do. To be fair Sisters hold themselves to the highest of standards and expect the same from others, but they are still human and make mistakes.

Troike wrote:Reading this along with the others, one can get a pretty clear idea of what happened, even if the various authors seem to have slightly different perceptions of what was said.

Yep, the truth is likely to be found somewhere in the middle.
"Lack of enthusiasm" is the most likely explanation to me. I mean, the studio can't even be bothered to include Sisters in the mission and supplementary books - not even the ones publicly advertised as offering "something for every army".

Troike wrote:An interesting take on it. So you're saying that their purity of commitment to a sort of "faithful utopia" elevates them above other factions? I can see what you're getting at, though I don't see it that way. I think that they're very grimdark. They might be very sincere about their goal, but they think nothing of doing awful things to achieve it. These are the people who brutally supress any and all things that don't fit in with their religion, and they'll eagerly apply methods such as torture, conversion into a Flagellant or burning people alive.
I do think that their sheer faith definetely lends them an element of heroism as a faction, though they are still some very nasty people to be on the wrong side of.

I kind of think both of you are having a point. It could be argued that the Ecclesiarchy does, in addition to all the "bad" stuff, also a lot of good things, from providing spiritual and moral support to physical aid such as feeding the poor or treating the sick. Still, I'm gravitating more towards Troike's stance as the few good things generally seem to be eclipsed by the terrible effects of a culture of oppression, exploitation and outright barbarism. Undoubtedly, there are many, many members within the ranks of the Ecclesiarchy that genuinely want to help people, but at the same time I feel that, overall, it is as rotten as the rest of the Imperium.
If I had to pick a spot for myself, I'd rather live with the Tau.

But what makes the Ecclesiarchy fascinating is that, aside from the monumental design, it also serves as a pivotal pillar of stability - plus, the genuine heroism that you, Troike, mentioned. A robed cleric with a sawn-off shotgun confronting a bunch of CSMs or Eldar is a whole lot braver than the same-ole-same-ole stories of "epic" Marine combat. Even though the cleric would, in most cases, be rather unlikely to survive the encounter.

Manchu expressed it in a manner that I in my semi-delirious and flu-ridden state would not be able to express, so I'm just gonna quote him:

 Manchu wrote:
I'd say it's their defining feature. It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" So instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in that power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch.

Pure. Badass.

andrewm9 wrote:
I wouldn't say they think nothing of it, but given the alternative, it is something they must do.

Oh, of course they place weight on doing their duty. I meant as in they don't have any qualms about the killing. To the Sisters (and probably a lot of the Ecclesiarchy in general), somebody who has been deisgned as "undesirable" simply needs to die/be forcibly converted. You're either with them or against them, so to speak.

 Lynata wrote:
"Lack of enthusiasm" is the most likely explanation to me.

The impression I'm getting is that they would be plenty enthusiastic about updating the Sisters, were they to set aside the time to needed time to do so.

 Lynata wrote:
it also serves as a pivotal pillar of stability

True. Considering that Chaos is a thing, the Ecclesiarchy is very much a necessity. So they can be considered good in that they're actively opposing much worse forces, at least. And they do play a very important role in bringing new human worlds into the Imperial fold. They're certainly not without redeeming qualities, if we're looking at them in terms of morality.

Uncle Fester wrote:
I equate "the time is right" in the same way Cthullu cultists do, by ages. It is difficult not to by cynical, but it is disheartening that plastic Sisters have joined, or even surfaced, the plastic Thunder Hawk on the believability of rumors.

Like I said above, when the stars are right.

 Troike wrote:
Oh, could you elaborate on this? I'm curious, what do you think makes the Sisters less distasteful than the rest of the Ecclesiarchy?

Well, I do not think the Sisters get to managed the treasury of the church. I do not expect them to deal with those kind of, well, worldy matters . So I imagine they just take what they get from the Ecclesiarchy rather than design it themselves. I may be completely wrong though.

 KesaAnna wrote:
Fact is, I would have, for example, liked a unit of Celestines for an HQ squad completely in helmets.

Celestians. Celestine is the special character .

Troike wrote:The impression I'm getting is that they would be plenty enthusiastic about updating the Sisters, were they to set aside the time to needed time to do so.

You mean if they'd be less enthusiastic about any other army out there?

Including their new Imperial Knights, who also just got a nifty background book of the sort SoB players can only dream about.
But why make such stuff for existing factions if you can funnel your creative energy into something new you apparently care more about?

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:Celestians. Celestine is the special character .

A squad of Celestines would be pretty boss, tho!

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 KesaAnna wrote:
Fact is, I would have, for example, liked a unit of Celestines for an HQ squad completely in helmets.

Celestians. Celestine is the special character .

Huh , I never actually noticed the two names were fundamentally different, even though you HEAR CelesTIANS often enough in the audio play " Red and Black" . In any case, because of the close similarity, I've always preferred calling the later " The Living Saint " even though it's more words to type out.

Unfortunately, with GW being in danger of going into the death spiral (if it is not already in it), either the Sisters will be ignored in favor of "that one product that will save us from bankruptcy", or the Sisters will get a rushed, low-quality release, squished among other desperate attempts to put GW back in black.

 Manchu wrote:
I'd say it's their defining feature. It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" So instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in that power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch.

Pure. Badass.

I'm going to steal that if it's okay, love the quote

As for the rumors and releases:
It seem that GW will continue doing these "a la StormClaw" boxes, with a Codex release on each side, so Orks => Stormclaw => Wolves; next rumored is D.Eldar => Box => Blood Angels. I could see a CSM => Box => Sisters of battle set-up, where they only need 3 sprues in plastic to get the box.

And then a typical "sort the rest of your army yourself"...

 Troike wrote:

I doubt that this would happen. GW is all about expansion now, rather than trimming things down.

Which is why the IG codex still includes the Griffon and Colossus? Oh wait, it doesn't, mainly because they couldn't be bothered to issue models for either one of them. So yeah, units do get 'disappeared' on occasion, or unit options go away.

 Lynata wrote:
You mean if they'd be less enthusiastic about any other army out there?

Perhaps. It may also be the case that they really don't have the time that they want to put into the Sisters, just now.

 don_mondo wrote:
Which is why the IG codex still includes the Griffon and Colossus? Oh wait, it doesn't, mainly because they couldn't be bothered to issue models for either one of them. So yeah, units do get 'disappeared' on occasion, or unit options go away.

That's due to their "no model. no rules" policy. Otherwise, they're unlikely to vanish units that still have models.

...Though, having said that, some SoB models have gone missing, fairly recently. Don't think it's been enough so that a whole unit is without models, though.

That's a regional thing. Some regions still have stock, while others don't.

 Troike wrote:

 don_mondo wrote:
Which is why the IG codex still includes the Griffon and Colossus? Oh wait, it doesn't, mainly because they couldn't be bothered to issue models for either one of them. So yeah, units do get 'disappeared' on occasion, or unit options go away.

That's due to their "no model. no rules" policy. Otherwise, they're unlikely to vanish units that still have models.

...Though, having said that, some SoB models have gone missing, fairly recently. Don't think it's been enough so that a whole unit is without models, though.

If they re-boot the whole range, they might just ditch some of the models that can’t be redone in time. While any unit that can be made with your basic sister should be safe, the odd ones like the repentia might be at risk. If GW is truly pushing the all plastic, all the time mantra, just because you have it in metal does not mean it’s safe.

 Nevelon wrote:
If they re-boot the whole range, they might just ditch some of the models that can’t be redone in time. While any unit that can be made with your basic sister should be safe, the odd ones like the repentia might be at risk. If GW is truly pushing the all plastic, all the time mantra, just because you have it in metal does not mean it’s safe.

Eh, I don't see that happening. There's still other metal models hanging around.

Really, there's no need to go around arbitrarily removing products for no real reason. Anything that stays metal should be allright until it eventually goes OOP

 Troike wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
If they re-boot the whole range, they might just ditch some of the models that can’t be redone in time. While any unit that can be made with your basic sister should be safe, the odd ones like the repentia might be at risk. If GW is truly pushing the all plastic, all the time mantra, just because you have it in metal does not mean it’s safe.

Eh, I don't see that happening. There's still other metal models hanging around.

Really, there's no need to go around arbitrarily removing products for no real reason. Anything that stays metal should be allright until it eventually goes OOP

The new codex would be cut back but they'll have a day one DLC for Repentia.

Troike wrote:Perhaps. It may also be the case that they really don't have the time that they want to put into the Sisters, just now.

Yeah, but that "just now" has been for over a decade.

I'm going with Occham's Razor here. GW has undoubtedly had enough time to invest in a scope of other projects, from an entire revamp of the Dark Eldar army to bringing out a completely new list with their Imperial Knights, not to mention a score of new supplements.
No Andy = No Sisters. That was the prevailing opinion on the yahoo list where Mr. Hoare himself used to post, too.

That's not to say that this situation may not change some day, but imho this would require a new designer who actually really likes Sisters. Not those PR "yeah I have a Sisters army too" statements that were so thin, they didn't even bother to paint it when it was shown on the website, not to mention their unit setups violated their own codex rules. Good thing GW has pulled that embarrassing article again.
I believe GW is a business where the individual designers have a lot of influence on what gets created next, and whilst this is generally a cool thing, the obvious disadvantage of this approach is what happened with the SoB once their only real fan in the company had left.

At least they've not forgotten about them entirely, as evidenced in a couple short mentions here and there in some fluff. Still it's rather "interesting" that they keep missing to include them in supplements that are supposedly meant for "all" armies. It's almost as if one side of the studio has no clue what the other does, or perhaps this is the result of compartmentalised development, and whoever was responsible for those books is not the same guy as the one who repeatedly manages to smuggle in one or two sentences about Sisters into other stuff.

MWHistorian wrote:The new codex would be cut back but they'll have a day one DLC for Repentia.

Ha! ... I can actually see that happening. :(

That being said, it would be awesome if this hypothetical supplement would offer the pre-3E "Proto-Repentia" from Andy Hoare's CJ article as an alternate choice / independent character. I've actually come to find her more interesting than the normal squad, over the past years.

 MWHistorian wrote:
The new codex would be cut back but they'll have a day one DLC for Repentia.

Again, not really seeing why they'd cut anything back, unless its model went OOP and they were forced to remove it due to their "no model, no rules" policy.

More likely, a day one DLC for the Sisters might be a special character of some kind?

 Lynata wrote:
GW has undoubtedly had enough time to invest in a scope of other projects, from an entire revamp of the Dark Eldar army to bringing out a completely new list with their Imperial Knights, not to mention a score of new supplements.

Though, keep in mind, the question of updating the SoB was apparently further complicated by modelling issues, in the past (though recent quotes suggest that this may no longer be a problem?). And I'm unsure if GW has done such a huge modelling re-work since the DE, and the Sisters would likely need an similar amount of work.

 Lynata wrote:
No Andy = No Sisters. That was the prevailing opinion on the yahoo list where Mr. Hoare himself used to post, too.

I'm not so sure about this. From the information we have, it seems that the hold-up is due to the sculptors not yet working on a model update. I'm doubtful that an advocate could have a major impact on this. I mean, what could they do? Continually nag Jes Goodwin about updating the Sisters? I think, ultimately, him and his team are the ones who need to put in the work. There's already plenty of designers who like and would be willing to do rules for the Sisters, so they're fine on that end.

 Lynata wrote:
Still it's rather "interesting" that they keep missing to include them in supplements that are supposedly meant for "all" armies.

As I said before, my theory on this is that the Sisters are "on the backburner" for the moment, pending an update, so they receive limited rules focus. They may be thinking "outdated models = less reason to promote".

...But, I'm not happy about it, mind you. I'm still quite annoyed about it all the same. It would be very easy to give the SoB some attention, in some instances of this. Yet it can sometimes feel like one has been handicapped just for liking this one particular army. Hopefully this'll change, someday.

They've been on the backburner for over a decade. I don't think they're boiling, I think they're fermenting at this point.

 MWHistorian wrote:
The new codex would be cut back but they'll have a day one DLC for Repentia.

Now, you are out of date. Now, it is going to be in a White Dwarf weekly article. Hardly better, that is true. But it does not matter: GW's strategy will have changed at least a few dozen time before the codex will be release. Even assuming a (totally not realistic) release of Sisters in less than a year, actually .