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Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 Xenomancers wrote:
 vipoid wrote:
Akiasura wrote:

In what situation with the limitations provided above is charging an MC worth it?
1 wound left and in rapid fire range? Unless bolters can't hurt it, I would also think shooting does a much better job. Remember, if the marines fight in melee, break, and then get caught, the MC is now completely safe from gun fire on your turn. That...is bad.


Actually, it's the other way round.

If you're charging it and your marines break but get caught, then it's stuck fighting them in your opponent's turn.

Akiasura wrote:
It's hard to come up with situations where marines do a decent job that isn't drop pod, rapid fire, die.


A depressing state of affairs for the game then.

Tac Marines have been depressing on the table top for a long time. They have been one of the worst troop options in the game since at least 3rd and from what I heard in 2nd they were even worse. It's not really a new thing for AP 2/3 to be rampant - it always has been. Sure there's more of it now because there are new weapons and armies since 3rd but that only makes tacs struggle even more than they have been struggling. Dropping them in cost 1 ppm is a cheap joke at fixing tacs. Clearly GW understands tacs are really underwhelming. In terms of an easy fix - something GW should be looking for - buffing the bolter is probably the best thing to do - 2/3 salvo 24" would work nicely - then buff the SB and HB accordingly (also weapons that are really lacking). Adding relentless to the PA profile would also be an appropriate fix (I always imagine space marines would be a steadily advancing army - I can't imagine them being tied down by a heavy weapon or having walking really effect their ability to use their weapon.) I think that with relentless at their current price tactical would be fairly priced - I'd even be willing to pay a little more to get it like 16 ppm or just increase the heavy weapons costs by 5- 10 points.


In 2nd edition, loyalist marines were unplayable. When 3rd dropped, my record went from 0-11(12?) to 12-2 immediately.
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Dropping them in cost 1 ppm is a cheap joke at fixing tacs.


When did they drop by 1 ppm?

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
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I agree that dropping the price of tacs is not the answer. Making them able to DO something meaningful is the solution. But given how poor a marine's offensive/pt is in general, I don't have a fix.
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 vipoid wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Dropping them in cost 1 ppm is a cheap joke at fixing tacs.


When did they drop by 1 ppm?

Hard to say...I've had codex marines ranging from 16 - 14 ppm. I think they were 15 ppm in 4th and 16 ppm in 5th (but started getting frag and krak for free.) Now they are 14ppm. I'm certain this is the cheapest they have ever been. However they really have never been weaker.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 Xenomancers wrote:
 vipoid wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Dropping them in cost 1 ppm is a cheap joke at fixing tacs.


When did they drop by 1 ppm?

Hard to say...I've had codex marines ranging from 16 - 14 ppm. I think they were 15 ppm in 4th and 16 ppm in 5th (but started getting frag and krak for free.) Now they are 14ppm. I'm certain this is the cheapest they have ever been. However they really have never been weaker.


They were weaker in 2nd. As I said, unplayable.
   
Made in us
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets






 Las wrote:
Yeah, it's easy to discount tac marines when you compare them to units kitted out to kill MEQ. Play better.


Yep. Guys, your codex is bad? No, you're just bad. L2P N00B

/sarcasm

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/19 17:31:02


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 Xenomancers wrote:
 vipoid wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Dropping them in cost 1 ppm is a cheap joke at fixing tacs.


When did they drop by 1 ppm?

Hard to say...I've had codex marines ranging from 16 - 14 ppm. I think they were 15 ppm in 4th and 16 ppm in 5th (but started getting frag and krak for free.) Now they are 14ppm. I'm certain this is the cheapest they have ever been. However they really have never been weaker.


I don't know about 4th, but I'm sure they were at least 17 ppm in 5th (I think the first 5 were effectively 19 ppm, because of the sergeant-tax). They got a pretty decent point-drop in 6th.

With regard to this being the weakest they've ever been, do you think that's more of a problem with the current system?

I'm wondering if the problem lies more in the game becoming about MCs, bikes and vehicles, whilst infantry in general are left behind.

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Xenomancers wrote:
Akiasura wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 vipoid wrote:
Akiasura wrote:

In what situation with the limitations provided above is charging an MC worth it?
1 wound left and in rapid fire range? Unless bolters can't hurt it, I would also think shooting does a much better job. Remember, if the marines fight in melee, break, and then get caught, the MC is now completely safe from gun fire on your turn. That...is bad.


Actually, it's the other way round.

If you're charging it and your marines break but get caught, then it's stuck fighting them in your opponent's turn.

Akiasura wrote:
It's hard to come up with situations where marines do a decent job that isn't drop pod, rapid fire, die.


A depressing state of affairs for the game then.

Tac Marines have been depressing on the table top for a long time. They have been one of the worst troop options in the game since at least 3rd and from what I heard in 2nd they were even worse. It's not really a new thing for AP 2/3 to be rampant - it always has been. Sure there's more of it now because there are new weapons and armies since 3rd but that only makes tacs struggle even more than they have been struggling. Dropping them in cost 1 ppm is a cheap joke at fixing tacs. Clearly GW understands tacs are really underwhelming. In terms of an easy fix - something GW should be looking for - buffing the bolter is probably the best thing to do - 2/3 salvo 24" would work nicely - then buff the SB and HB accordingly (also weapons that are really lacking). Adding relentless to the PA profile would also be an appropriate fix (I always imagine space marines would be a steadily advancing army - I can't imagine them being tied down by a heavy weapon or having walking really effect their ability to use their weapon.) I think that with relentless at their current price tactical would be fairly priced - I'd even be willing to pay a little more to get it like 16 ppm or just increase the heavy weapons costs by 5- 10 points.


In 3rd they weren't that bad, the only army that could just roll over them was a starcannon heavy eldar list, and even that suffered considering how good the transports were. The dreaded rhino rush was a thing. I can't speak to 4th, I didn't play too much during 4th since my army went from mediocre to OP in a hurry, but by 5th...yes, they were terrible.

Salvo, relentless, shred on bolters...all those things would be fine, and are much more likely to happen over a point drop.
I wish my local group allowed house rules so I could field marines outside of grey hunters. Bikers and such just don't fit with alpha legion...and I like my horde of marines from different legions with the hydra shoulderpads to be on foot.

Cant CSM take CCW on marines? In a few editions they were able to. I really couldn't tell you because I haven't seen a CSM is ages. All chaos is daemons with psychic shenanigans. CCW marines with a rhino could at least serve a purpose.


They can, for a point.
Everyone takes plague marines, noise marines, and cultists. There is 1 player who takes 1k Sons and swears they are good.
   
Made in us
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Akiasura wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 vipoid wrote:
Akiasura wrote:

In what situation with the limitations provided above is charging an MC worth it?
1 wound left and in rapid fire range? Unless bolters can't hurt it, I would also think shooting does a much better job. Remember, if the marines fight in melee, break, and then get caught, the MC is now completely safe from gun fire on your turn. That...is bad.


Actually, it's the other way round.

If you're charging it and your marines break but get caught, then it's stuck fighting them in your opponent's turn.

Akiasura wrote:
It's hard to come up with situations where marines do a decent job that isn't drop pod, rapid fire, die.


A depressing state of affairs for the game then.

Tac Marines have been depressing on the table top for a long time. They have been one of the worst troop options in the game since at least 3rd and from what I heard in 2nd they were even worse. It's not really a new thing for AP 2/3 to be rampant - it always has been. Sure there's more of it now because there are new weapons and armies since 3rd but that only makes tacs struggle even more than they have been struggling. Dropping them in cost 1 ppm is a cheap joke at fixing tacs. Clearly GW understands tacs are really underwhelming. In terms of an easy fix - something GW should be looking for - buffing the bolter is probably the best thing to do - 2/3 salvo 24" would work nicely - then buff the SB and HB accordingly (also weapons that are really lacking). Adding relentless to the PA profile would also be an appropriate fix (I always imagine space marines would be a steadily advancing army - I can't imagine them being tied down by a heavy weapon or having walking really effect their ability to use their weapon.) I think that with relentless at their current price tactical would be fairly priced - I'd even be willing to pay a little more to get it like 16 ppm or just increase the heavy weapons costs by 5- 10 points.


In 3rd they weren't that bad, the only army that could just roll over them was a starcannon heavy eldar list, and even that suffered considering how good the transports were. The dreaded rhino rush was a thing. I can't speak to 4th, I didn't play too much during 4th since my army went from mediocre to OP in a hurry, but by 5th...yes, they were terrible.

Salvo, relentless, shred on bolters...all those things would be fine, and are much more likely to happen over a point drop.
I wish my local group allowed house rules so I could field marines outside of grey hunters. Bikers and such just don't fit with alpha legion...and I like my horde of marines from different legions with the hydra shoulderpads to be on foot.


In 4th they weren't bad either, one of the tournament lists that was popular involved having 5-6 6 man las/plas squads as the base (the rest was a squad of AMs, a Libby, and as many assault cannons as you could fit).

Personally I'm iffy on another points drop. We're already at the point where you're able to put almost an entire company on the table and that just feels wrong for an army that's supposed to be small and elite.

I think we've reached the point where shooting is just too lethal for a healthy game, and it needs to be scaled back.
   
Made in se
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The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer

 Las wrote:
A wraith lord with one wound left. Your special weapons is dead, it's on a secondary objective that you need by the end of the turn.


It has 3 attacks and hits on 4+. That means it'll take time for it to chew through the unit.

You wound it on 6s, however, with a 3+ armour save. You need 36 Krak grenade melee attacks to reliably wound it. Best to just dance around it as much as you can while throwing a krak at it. If you have no firepower to spare and it's the last turn, you have no need to worry- it won't wipe you out, and you have ObSec so it won't even contest the objective either way.

So no, no reason to charge and give it an extra round of melee in which the Wraithlord has a chance to make you fall back out of objective range.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/19 20:33:23


I should think of a new signature... In the meantime, have a  
   
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 Ashiraya wrote:
 Las wrote:
A wraith lord with one wound left. Your special weapons is dead, it's on a secondary objective that you need by the end of the turn.


It has 3 attacks and hits on 4+. That means it'll take time for it to chew through the unit.

You wound it on 6s, however, with a 3+ armour save. You need 36 Krak grenade melee attacks to reliably wound it. Best to just dance around it as much as you can while throwing a krak at it. If you have no firepower to spare and it's the last turn, you have no need to worry- it won't wipe you out, and you have ObSec so it won't even contest the objective either way.

So no, no reason to charge and give it an extra round of melee in which the Wraithlord has a chance to make you fall back out of objective range.


Sounds like a good time for a drive by with grav bikers. Oh yeah, that's a unit better than tacticals.
   
Made in se
Glorious Lord of Chaos






The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer

Most definitely. Tacticals will maybe be able to stall the Wraithlord and has a small chance to even wound it, whereas the grav bikers will reliably kill it.

Wraithlords are also slow, so you should be able to kite it with ease - hell, why did you let it get so close? A slow melee MC is very predictable in its movement since it is all but mandatory for it to rush against the closest foe to have any hope of inflicting damage.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/19 20:36:51


I should think of a new signature... In the meantime, have a  
   
Made in ca
Hauptmann




Hogtown

 Ashiraya wrote:
Most definitely. Tacticals will maybe be able to stall the Wraithlord and has a small chance to even wound it, whereas the grav bikers will reliably kill it.

Wraithlords are also slow, so you should be able to kite it with ease - hell, why did you let it get so close? A slow melee MC is very predictable in its movement since it is all but mandatory for it to rush against the closest foe to have any hope of inflicting damage.


And I have grav cents too and las devs etc. but there's a million reasons why they might not be able to shoot at that specific unit this turn. My point is that tacs can do that if they need to and a bunch of other stuff if I want them too. They're a hole plugger.

Besides, not everyone wants to run bikes.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/19 20:42:21


Thought for the day
 
   
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 Las wrote:
 Ashiraya wrote:
Most definitely. Tacticals will maybe be able to stall the Wraithlord and has a small chance to even wound it, whereas the grav bikers will reliably kill it.

Wraithlords are also slow, so you should be able to kite it with ease - hell, why did you let it get so close? A slow melee MC is very predictable in its movement since it is all but mandatory for it to rush against the closest foe to have any hope of inflicting damage.


And I have grav cents too. My point is that tacs can do that if they need to and a bunch of other stuff if I want them too. They're a hole plugger.

Besides, not everyone wants to run bikes.


What is the bunch of other stuff? 40K is not a strategic level game. There are no "holes".
   
Made in ca
Hauptmann




Hogtown

Martel732 wrote:
 Las wrote:
 Ashiraya wrote:
Most definitely. Tacticals will maybe be able to stall the Wraithlord and has a small chance to even wound it, whereas the grav bikers will reliably kill it.

Wraithlords are also slow, so you should be able to kite it with ease - hell, why did you let it get so close? A slow melee MC is very predictable in its movement since it is all but mandatory for it to rush against the closest foe to have any hope of inflicting damage.


And I have grav cents too. My point is that tacs can do that if they need to and a bunch of other stuff if I want them too. They're a hole plugger.

Besides, not everyone wants to run bikes.


What is the bunch of other stuff? 40K is not a strategic level game. There are no "holes".


The nature of the game is a whole different discussion.

The unit can drop pod. It can camp an objective with a long range at weapon AND respond to down field threats in a transport at the same time, to name two. "They're not bikes," isn't a relevent point.

Thought for the day
 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




They can't do any of those things you listed well. A unit that can't do anything well really has no place in a list.
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 Las wrote:
Besides, not everyone wants to run bikes.


So? The fact that you don't want to use a clearly superior unit does not mean that the alternative is good, it just means that you're stubborn.

Martel732 wrote:
They can't do any of those things you listed well. A unit that can't do anything well really has no place in a list.


Exactly. "The unit is capable of rolling dice in this situation" does not mean that it's good at it, or that you should take it.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
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Oh, and for a marine list that can make bikes troops, not being bikes IS the point. It's beyond relevant. It is the summation of the problem.
   
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Finland

Weird, my Tacticals perform well in all my games and are almost always worth their points. Must be something I do then.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/12/19 21:02:08


   
Made in ca
Hauptmann




Hogtown

Martel732 wrote:
Oh, and for a marine list that can make bikes troops, not being bikes IS the point. It's beyond relevant. It is the summation of the problem.


Bikes are a good choice for bike lists? Shocker.

Thought for the day
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 RunicFIN wrote:
Weird, my Tacticals perform well in all my games and are almost always worth their points. Must be something I do then.


More likely it's your meta.

Compare them, point for point, against any other troop choice in the game, and you'll see marines come out losing in nearly all situations that are common on a battlefield.
In extreme situations, they can roll dice, but not do it very well.

It's why people are anxious to swap them out for other options.
It's why chaos uses cult units, even with the lord tax.

Edit:
Las, if you don't like bikes, then run scouts. You'd be better off.
If you like them for reasons, that is fine (I used to like warp spiders in 3rd, and they were viewed as one of the worst aspects back then so I understand), but that doesn't make them good. That just means you like them enough to spend extra resources to make them work.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/19 21:13:24


 
   
Made in us
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 RunicFIN wrote:
Weird, my Tacticals perform well in all my games and are almost always worth their points. Must be something I do then.


Given your previous comments about how "balanced" 40k's rules are and how little improvement they need I think we can safely conclude that you play in a very casual environment where nobody ever brings good lists and everyone always cooperates to forge a narrative and ensure that even the worst units get their opportunity to be useful.

 Las wrote:
Bikes are a good choice for bike lists? Shocker.


No, bikes are the default choice for any codex that can take bikes as troops. Even if you aren't doing a themed bike list they're still the better option.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
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 Peregrine wrote:

 Las wrote:
Bikes are a good choice for bike lists? Shocker.


No, bikes are the default choice for any codex that can take bikes as troops. Even if you aren't doing a themed bike list they're still the better option.


This. Take a look at DA, who have technically four troops choices: scouts, tac marines, bikes, and terminators. Bikes are consistently the chosen army for DA and usually outperform tac or terminator lists of the same codex.

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The taxical marines are SUPPOSED to be ok for doing activity A, and then be ok at doing activity B, where there are better units for both A and B each.

In practice, they just suck. In a 5-6 turn game, it's easy to set things up where a specialist squad would be doing what it's good at all game. A shooty squad goes at the back, a melee squad goes at the front.

MAYBE if you were playing in some long campaign where you couldn't replace losses, and had dudes split up everywhere in different forces, MAYBE a tax marine squad somewhere might be in the right place at the right time to give their C+ effort at two different things and be valuable.

But after playing hundreds of games, and watching hundreds of batreps, I have literally NEVER seen a taxical marine squad deployed or played in such a way that I wouldn't have rather had a Devastator squad, scout squad, or assault squad instead for the length of the game.

Can anyone point out a batrep that I can watch where the whole tactical "we're C+ at everything!" ability actually makes them the best choice for a spot?

In my opinion, you don't need tight ends in 40k. You need the line, the line backers, the receivers, the runningbacks, and you ARE the QB, but a tight end whose role is "be adaptable" just doesn't fit.


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niv-mizzet wrote:
In my opinion, you don't need tight ends in 40k. You need the line, the line backers, the receivers, the runningbacks, and you ARE the QB, but a tight end whose role is "be adaptable" just doesn't fit.


Unless of course you're talking about balance mistakes that are great at everything.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 RunicFIN wrote:
Weird, my Tacticals perform well in all my games and are almost always worth their points. Must be something I do then.


It's what your opponents AREN'T doing, I can assure you. They would not perform well against my neo-BA.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/19 22:05:20


 
   
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 Peregrine wrote:
niv-mizzet wrote:
In my opinion, you don't need tight ends in 40k. You need the line, the line backers, the receivers, the runningbacks, and you ARE the QB, but a tight end whose role is "be adaptable" just doesn't fit.


Unless of course you're talking about balance mistakes that are great at everything.


Aka. Phil Kelly syndrome.
   
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Manitoba

Would the improvement of marines go ham in hand with maybe improvements with the bolter? Speaking from the ork side of the house, I have to pay 11pts for a hard boy with a shoota. So that gives me a str 4 ap5 shot and armour save of 4+. No added benefits anything. From what I see in marines, you're getting a 3+ sv and unlike orks they don't try and kill each other whenever they lose a few guys.

Maybe instead of making marines cheaper, they up the stats of the bolter by pushing its range up or increasing it's str/ap.

 
   
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Due to the prevalence of AP 2/3 I'd say that hard boyz are not as efficient as regular boyz.
   
Made in ca
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Manitoba

That's why it's rare (in my local area) for anyone to take it. Throw it in the war bosses group maybe, but at best it's giving you a chance for trukk explosions to hurt less. That's why as an ork player the only ap that concerns me is ap 2, because my Mega's are the only thing in that armour range.

But 3+ is stil giving you more surviviabilty than most other troops. Guard are only 5+ if I recall (I'm at work so I have no codex's on me), tau 4+ for warriors? And iirc, your marine is stronger and tougher than the squisher races anyways.

 
   
 
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