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Hi, I'm just starting a WoC army and have some questions regarding certain units and compositions. This is not my first fantasy army, and I have been playing for a while. My other army is WE.

1. Marauder Horsemen
I imagine that equipping these guys with flails and light armor is going to be extremely effective. I can't decide however which mark to give them- all of the (maybe except Tzeentch) have some nice benefits. Ive heard people give them the MoK. But wouldn't that be a huge detriment to their ability to be actually used as fast cavalry, ie maneuvering, taking charges of opportunity, knocking out artillery, etc? Wouldn't the MoS also be a detriment since the unit can no longer choose flee as a reaction? MoN on the other hand seems extremely effective. This essentially ups their WS to 5, which is an extremely important number since WS4 is arguably the most common, and also provides a -1 to being shot at, making them less vulnerable to the bane of fast cavalry- archers and RBTs.

2. Warriors & Chosens
Shields are a no-brainer, but is it wise to also equip them with sheilds and a halberd/greatweapon? I plan on giving this unit the MoN + maybe the Rage Banner. Im thinking this because it might be extremely useful should they get a charge off. With that many high WS high Str attacks, I can't see them even needing a shield.

*My Idea
I plan to run a monstrous Chosen unit with Festus and 2+ Warshrines buffing them. The champion has the FotG, and so my chances of getting a 12 result is actually extremely high. (Can't get 1s or 7s, +1/-1, +1/-1 to make it a 1 or 7 to get another reroll (evil?), even more rerolls (Valkia. Rerolls to make more rerolls anyone? I don't have to stop as per the FAQ), can't have same mark twice, 3 time buff). Imagine that... huge unit of Chosens with 1+ save, T5, 5+ regen, and a 4+ ward, stubborn and the mix . Most likely with MoN + Rage Banner. Totally all my eggs in one basket, but it just sounds so... fun.

Comments, concerns and criticisms are extremely welcomed for this part.

3. Rare Choices
Is it just me or does Warshrines outclass just about everything?

4. Warshrines
Can't decide between the MoN or the MoT...




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, I think Im also going to explain my Chosen units Chosen of the Dark Gods and that 12 result better.

So, the unit champion takes FotG, alowing for a +1/-1 modifier. Now, right off the bat I can't get a 1 or 7, eliminating a lot of chances. Followed by that, with Valkia I have another reroll. For example, say I roll a 6 in the beginning of battle. It's not a bad result- I may keep it. OR I may modify it UP 1, for a 7. Meaning I reroll because I can't HAVE a 7. Similarly, if I roll an 8, I can modify it -1, which gives me the reroll also. This continues until I get one that I like (+1 toughness, 4++/stubborn, Terror). If I don't like it and get a "stuck" number like a 5, I can use Valkia's reroll, which may go back to the beginning again if I roll a 1, 7, 6, or 8. Now with 2 warshrine buffs, the chances of me getting a 12 is even higher, because 1 result is already eliminated from the start of the battle (can't have same mark twice). The CotDG no longer has an effect, but Valkia still gives me that reroll, and the +1/-1 still works. The 2nd warshrine, has a huge chance of getting a 12. 2 results are eliminated. I still can't get a 2 or 7 (because of +1/-1), meaning I essentially have 6-8 out of 12 results eliminated from being a possibility.

This is perfectly legal. The question is now whether I should do this or not on the cheese () factor.

First thing, I don't believe that MOS prevents your fast cav from fleeing. It bestows immunity to fear, terror and panic, but does not negate the feigned flight ability of fast cav. At least that's how I've played it and seen it played. IMHO MOS is the best mark for all core and special units to take because of the low Woc leadership and the prevalence of fear and terror causing units in the meta-game. With it, marauder horsemen can effectively operate and be a real pain for your enemy.

As for the warshrines...even though MOTZ will increase the ward save...I say go with MOS on your warshrines. That will eliminate any psychology attack upon them, so they will never run, and will be able to support your death-star-chosen unit. I say add MOS, collar of khorne to chosen champion, and rapturous standard to the unit. That kit + festus+ the warshrines/ valkia combo basically makes the chosen unit one of the deadliest tarpits in the game. Might even consider adding another sorcerer on a palanquin to cast double buboes each turn...with lots of poisoned attacks...to truly make it a deathstar.

Ohhh good point. I forgot that the MoS grants immunities and not actually Immune to Psychology.

I don't see why a warshrine would need MoS though. It's unlikely it'll run off the board, and it doesn't need to maintain the 12" to sustain the unit buff right- only to cast it. Are you talking about terror and the such?

Well you cant exactly keep going and going and going with rolls on eotg... I believe the reroll from Valkia is only once per roll on eotg table. So assuming you have 2 shrines, you will have your one roll before game and 2 additional rolls on your first turn. You can reroll each roll once from Valkia and any duplicates as well. I do not believe it counts as dublicate if you use Favor to +/- it to an already obtained affect... it has to actually be the same roll unmodified.

So yes you get at least 6 chances to get an 11 or 12 by turn 1... Also, in my experience with doing this I would give the Shrine MoT... most people will look at the chosen and not even bother with them... however if they take out the shrines, thats 2 effects they dont have. So I would tend to buff them and get out after you obtain your desired effect.

Oh and out of curiosity... what point size army is this?

As for your question on the Warriors. I find that playing them with Halberds, shields, MoN, banner of Fury has been very effective. It makes you very resilient to shooting, you hit with 3 S5 each at I5, and if you end up somewhere that you shouldn't be (ie. S6 enemies) you can turtle for a 2+ armour save and still 3 S4 attacks. Halberds over the Great weapons if you plan to be seeing any undead or daemons, or going against lots of stubborn troops as the initiative of warriors is so good.

Buttlerthepug wrote:Well you cant exactly keep going and going and going with rolls on eotg... I believe the reroll from Valkia is only once per roll on eotg table. So assuming you have 2 shrines, you will have your one roll before game and 2 additional rolls on your first turn. You can reroll each roll once from Valkia and any duplicates as well. I do not believe it counts as dublicate if you use Favor to +/- it to an already obtained affect... it has to actually be the same roll unmodified.

So yes you get at least 6 chances to get an 11 or 12 by turn 1... Also, in my experience with doing this I would give the Shrine MoT... most people will look at the chosen and not even bother with them... however if they take out the shrines, thats 2 effects they dont have. So I would tend to buff them and get out after you obtain your desired effect.

Oh and out of curiosity... what point size army is this?

Well neither the army book nor the FAQ says the duplicates must be unmodified. This is a RAW thing. Also, the shrine bonuses are not lost when the shrines are destroyed. It's not as if the shrines are easy to destroy anyways.

I'm making a 2000pts army.

@grobbicull

I'm thinking halberds are fine too, but since you're losing the armor save no matter whether you go with GWs or halberds, why not just take the +2 Str? I probably won't be using two handed weapons unless I'm charging anyways, although the part about Stubborn troops is an excellent point.

Redscare wrote:Hi, I'm just starting a WoC army and have some questions regarding certain units and compositions. This is not my first fantasy army, and I have been playing for a while. My other army is WE.

1. Marauder Horsemen
I imagine that equipping these guys with flails and light armor is going to be extremely effective. I can't decide however which mark to give them- all of the (maybe except Tzeentch) have some nice benefits. Ive heard people give them the MoK. But wouldn't that be a huge detriment to their ability to be actually used as fast cavalry, ie maneuvering, taking charges of opportunity, knocking out artillery, etc? Wouldn't the MoS also be a detriment since the unit can no longer choose flee as a reaction? MoN on the other hand seems extremely effective. This essentially ups their WS to 5, which is an extremely important number since WS4 is arguably the most common, and also provides a -1 to being shot at, making them less vulnerable to the bane of fast cavalry- archers and RBTs.

I am depressed to point out as a High Elf player, that your Marauder Horsemen should be equipped with Throwing Axes, those damn things destroy me. . .

I have lost a number of games by the 2nd turn, due to marching fast cavalry throwing axes at my RBT's, and then your blocks of nasty marching up the center so if I move to charge either I get flanked. . .

Welcome to the horde!

Some thoughts from me:

Redscare wrote:
1. Marauder Horsemen
I imagine that equipping these guys with flails and light armor is going to be extremely effective. I can't decide however which mark to give them- all of the (maybe except Tzeentch) have some nice benefits. Ive heard people give them the MoK. But wouldn't that be a huge detriment to their ability to be actually used as fast cavalry, ie maneuvering, taking charges of opportunity, knocking out artillery, etc? Wouldn't the MoS also be a detriment since the unit can no longer choose flee as a reaction? MoN on the other hand seems extremely effective. This essentially ups their WS to 5, which is an extremely important number since WS4 is arguably the most common, and also provides a -1 to being shot at, making them less vulnerable to the bane of fast cavalry- archers and RBTs.

From what I've seen horsemen come in three flavors: glasscannon (MoK + flails + light armor + musician), the old reliable (MoS + flails/t.axes + light armor + musician), undivided for great cheapness (no mark + flails/t.axes + light armor + musician). MoN and even T jacks their points up too high IMO, while MoS is so cheap and it helps them do their job (light combat, bait/flee, war machine hunting) all the better. The glasscannon is actually quite frightening, especially at lower points, where 5-6 marauders hit nearly as hard as chaos knights for half the cost. I run mine unmarked with spears, la, musician, because I didn't want to take flails like everybody and like the spear look better. Though the way I run them, flails would be quite a bit more effective

2. Warriors & Chosens
Shields are a no-brainer, but is it wise to also equip them with sheilds and a halberd/greatweapon? I plan on giving this unit the MoN + maybe the Rage Banner. Im thinking this because it might be extremely useful should they get a charge off. With that many high WS high Str attacks, I can't see them even needing a shield.

*My Idea
I plan to run a monstrous Chosen unit with Festus and 2+ Warshrines buffing them. The champion has the FotG, and so my chances of getting a 12 result is actually extremely high. (Can't get 1s or 7s, +1/-1, +1/-1 to make it a 1 or 7 to get another reroll (evil?), even more rerolls (Valkia. Rerolls to make more rerolls anyone? I don't have to stop as per the FAQ), can't have same mark twice, 3 time buff). Imagine that... huge unit of Chosens with 1+ save, T5, 5+ regen, and a 4+ ward, stubborn and the mix . Most likely with MoN + Rage Banner. Totally all my eggs in one basket, but it just sounds so... fun.

Comments, concerns and criticisms are extremely welcomed for this part.

On weapons beyond shield, go for it if you want to model it? People take halberds + shields quite a bit and it seems to work for them, but I guess they roll armor saves better than me. I can't save worth a damn, so it's 2+ shield all the time for me, and it's a rare day that my warriors get to charge anyway.

On the chosen deathstar, it sounds like you know how to build it for maximum madness. I might question the Anger Banner on them, as the brick is so slow as it is you probably want to keep it headed where you want it to go, rather than diverted about and messed with. I wonder if MoS is better than MoN, for the psych boost. Yes, if you roll up fear or terror than it's 10 wasted points, but losing that 'star to terror or a charge from an outnumbering fear-causer = game over. The -1 to hit from MoN is nice, but I'm guessing you're relying upon your 3+ save & 5+ regen to hold you until you get the 4+ ward going, and that should probably serve well enough to get by without the shooting dink. Still thinking about what banner would be best - rapture for paranoia purposes, blasted for a nice shooting ward but it becomes redundant once you hit Glory, wraith if you have more magic happening, warbanner for if you think you need more CR. I'd probably go rapture, because again I can't roll dice.

Now here's the question: how does the chosen deathstar actually win? Pumping out some magic from the bunker, as Valkia and your few support units tag a couple things? I can't imagine the 'star will be allowed to eat much of anything that costs real points, because again, it's slow as hell. Valkia may help with being march-blocked, but I dunno. It certainly is cool though

Do note that you CAN get a 2 on your chosen deathstar, though Valkia's reroll means you have to do it twice in a row. The favor doesn't work to modify a natural 2.

3. Rare Choices
Is it just me or does Warshrines outclass just about everything?

I used to love the double 'shrine too, and had a lot of schemes for double-buffing Galrauch and things like that. But then I realized how much I dislike the actual warshrine unit. You pay a bunch of points (enough to buy a chariot, which is IMO quite a bit better) for a monster that buffs somebody, but it itself is only good at surviving against shooting. I suppose it's pretty good at charging into a combat that warriors are already fighting and lending its attaks, but in a one-off against anything that matters I'd bet against the 'shrine holding. Really I feel like it's missing any 1 special rule that would make it functional as a unit in its own right - fear is simple and the top of my list, though there are any number of fluffy cool things that would make it much better (stubborn on a cart of screaming skulls fueled by the fires of the damned and pulled into battle by self-blinded zealots? Anyone?). Hell, US5 would be enough to bump it up for me.

4. Warshrines
Can't decide between the MoN or the MoT...

I'm in the MoS camp actually. #1) The 'shrine is already good at being tough, and since the buff stays after death why would anybody shoot it? Those chance-y shots are better served trying to tag Valkia or take out the few support units helping the 'star across the table. #2) Since it's never going to make back its points by itself or without freakish luck, you want to keep the 'shrine(s)'s cost as low as possible. #3) MoS costs little, and lets the 'shrine have a chance to hold against fear-causing flankers going for the deathstar's ranks, escape embarrassing terror checks, jump in to help with fear-causing enemies fighting the 'star, etc. Actually, a 'shrine might do ok against command-less undead units, and the MoS means it can hop in no prob.

As far as other rares go, I run a hellcannon and have had her pull off some craziness for me so far, but then I'm playing at lower points where her vulnerability isn't as easy to exploit. Chaos giants are really tempting - everybody seems to love the tentacular, ASF MoS one - and quite good IMO, compared to other giants. The shaggy, of course, is just crazy bad. We were comparing it to a hydra the other day at the store and I couldn't help laughing, at how undercosted the one is and overcosted the other is

- Salvage

@ citadel

Really? Im surprised that axes were effective against RBTs. Charging HE units scare me. My WE had some insane troubles trying to pull this one off. Even my Wild Riders fast cavalry can get potentially smacked charging a unit of archers.

@ Salvage

Thanks for the lengthy reply!

Glasscannon flavor does seem really tempting, although there are two things that worry me. First thing is that (at least in my experience and the people I fight against) WS4 troops are extremely common. The +1 attack seemed great until I realised that when fighting WS4, Frenzy is only marginally better than MoN, which also offers protection from shooting. MoS is starting to have its effect on me though. I think I might pick this over MoN.
_______________

I'm actually thinking about MoT for my deathstar chosen unit. MoN and MoS both seem really redundant if (or when ) I get my warshrine buffs. I thought the Rage banner might be a good choice since it also provides much needed psychology immunity. Rapture seems kind of redundant too- I'm not really expecting these guys to lose in combat, especially after Turn 1 (for shrine buffs), although it is still a possibility I guess.

I plan to run a wide unit of chosens, going at least 7-8 wide, and more than 2 ranks deep so that I'll have 3 guys fighting if I get flanked, although I'm going to be supporting them on the flanks with shrines, wolves, and marauder cavalry. Im essentially counting on this deathstar to take on multiple enemy units- even elite ones. It seems awfully risky, but even if I roll disastrously on the EotG, the unit is going to be extremely hardcore no matter what. And since the eggbasket works both ways, if my opponent wants to win, he'll have to try to tackle on this unit. It he seems disinclined to do so, I can run after his most expensive unit while keeping his light units occupied with horsemen, and his others with knights. I can also take the shrine buff off them and give them to other units who may need it.

Yeah a 2 is still possible- but it only has 1/36 chance of happening, and it can only happen on a shrine buff, which I can also reroll the next turn if somehow I manage to roll double 1's twice. Doesn't seem to be much of a risk there.
________________

Yeah, I don't think it's much of a unit by itself either, but it is extremely durable to shooting and magic- something which the chariot and other rares are not. With Valkia, the shrine can immensely buff up a unit when they need it. In my case, if my deathstar doesn't attract the necessary attention, I can easily buff my knights, small warrior units or even horsemen before they're loose or out of range and have them wreck havock, since I don't need to maintain 12" range.

MoS seems reasonable. I guess the unit is pretty tough already without the other marks.

I am considering running a Slaanesh giant though, since it makes a nice excuse to use that FW Keeper of secrets model that I plan to get. Although isn't it a bit fragile for what it can do?

For the Hellcannon, I can't guess range to save my life since I have never worked with artillery.

Yeah I always seemed to think that giants are fragile too and they never seem to get into combat... this however just means they are saving other units from taking fire. and if they do happen to get into combat itll be fun!

Redscare wrote:
Yeah a 2 is still possible- but it only has 1/36 chance of happening, and it can only happen on a shrine buff, which I can also reroll the next turn if somehow I manage to roll double 1's twice. Doesn't seem to be much of a risk there.

You can't ungift Stupidity, actually. Once somebody has been given a glimpse of the Warp - or had their brain replaced with a hamster, etc - they don't just get better! But yes, quite unlikely with Valkia around. She actually does push warshrine usefulness up, or at least insures that their few buffs are worth a little more.

I'm curious to see what your list ends up like. I just made a 2k list with Valkia, Festus, min horsemen core, min pups, 21 chosen and 2 warshrines (everything you've mentioned so far) and came out with enough for a decent knight unit or a second sorcerer to give you some defense and a possible magic phase along with Festy. I went with the sorcerer, by the by.

- Salvage

I wasn't aware you could take halberds and great weapons with shields, I always thought the fact they were two handed meant you couldn't.

Nice to know you can now though

You can buy them both (or all 3 even), but you have to decide which to use once you hit combat, with various trade-offs involved in that decision. The shields always work against shooting though, even if slung on the back.

- Salvage

2 Spawn for 110 points are great tar pit units. They also draw fire from war machines as opponents really think they are worse than they are. Unfortunately, they are a bit hit and miss. I've had mine take out a unit of White Lions and I've also had them put around in 2 inch limps for 4 turns.

Chariots. Chariots are awesome and softening up big units. d6+1 Str 5 impact hits. 4 Str 5 Warrior attacks and the horses. They can do a lot of damage.

Halberds seem like the half@ssed of the options really. If you're getting charged you need to maximize saves to mitigate damage especially against cav where static res is all you need to come out on top. If you're charging, maximizing damage is the priority. In either case, the halberds aren't the best weapon. Most combats in WFB that don't involve undead or daemons are over in one round meaning that you need to be optimized for that one round. Hand weapons, shields and great weapons is what I'd run. Dual HWs is cute, but with 2 base attacks, WS5 and S6 on great weapons, you'll clear the front rank pretty soundly against most opponents anyways.

As far as marauder cav, if you're using them as something other than redirecters, you're doing it wrong. MoK and flails is cute, but it's a fighty unit that's frenzied and doesn't like being charged by X, where X is almost anything. Keep marauder cav with throwing axes and MoS where they're comfortable and can really shine flails optional.

EotG rolls aren't too terribly broken. I've heard the spam ideas with various items and Valkia before, it's goofy, but not effective. You spend alot of points for some mild stat boosts that could be better spent on units/characters that murder your opponent like Archaon and a batch of Knights. Also when you're shrines get plugged you're stuck with whatever ability they bestowed whether it be "the eye is closed", stupidity or some other mediocre ability. People tend to get too hung up on 4+ ward and stubborn, but the rest of the chart doesn't really knock your socks off and a chosen unit in a 2K game at most have 3 results at a given time. You then have to choose between which of the 2 abilities granted by the warshrine you want to trade out to try to get the ward/stubborn result. It's alot of time and energy, but more importantly points and slots for something that could probably be done easier by just using a better unit/character in the first place.

Something to consider -

MoN got Erratta'd...It only works defensively (When you are being swung at), not when you are swinging. Against a WS 4 unit, it doesn't really do anything (Unless you have an exalted champion with MoN).

My rare choices usually go with Spawn, sometimes a Slaanesh giant. The giant usually turns into a pincushion though. The Spawn have a 360 degree charge which is useful against the bane of WoC...Maneuverable armies that avoid you and wear you down.

My Marauder Cav is MoS, Light armor, Flails, Musician, and a throwing weapon (Spears or Axes...Depends on how many points I have, though I perfer Axes)

My Warriors generally are MoS, Shields, and Great Weapons. I use the shields more than the Great weapons, but having the option is great if you get the charge on Cav or other low AS or high T units.

Something that no one has suggested...Dogs. Make sure you are packing at least two (And perferably more) units of dogs.

Halberds can be better than GW against some enemies, especially for a prolonged combat. Most notably things like Saurus.

GW are better against things T4 2+ and better though, but are more expensive.

Chiming in on the Chosen bunker - most folks that I see that run them are actually going max casters and put them in the unit. Sure it's slow, but when you figure in the Lvl 4 Tzeentch and a couple Lvl 2 Nurgle casters in the unit (adding in the Skull of Kataan or whatever gives you that nice +2 on your Lord to cast with MoT), it can be pretty nasty. Every time I've played them, especially with 2 shrines and the modifier item, they end up with a 2+ AS, 4+ Ward, 5+ Reg - basically unkillable. When you figure in how much that makes up of your army, it becomes a real points denial, even more so than the old Slann.
If your looking for a banner, think about the Slannesh "doubles equal insane courage" one. If you have your BSB in the unit and you somehow lose combat, definately helps out with taking those tests.

MOT is nice on the warshrines for the 3+ ward.

The list can work - I just find it boring as you really have a deathstar unit going with not a whole lot else.