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As in a dice roller application for the itouch, iphone or other small handheld device.

The argument for it is that you can roll a few hundred dice and (depending on the quality) have all the hits and misses counted up within a second, making the game go far faster, an invaluable tool for Ork or Tyranid players. The downside is the potential to alter the code to have a disposition towards a higher number, which is enough to make any opponent wary, and I don't think the iphone owner would let you give the dice the floating test!

In tournament play especially, it could help speed games up. Perhaps the TO could supply non-rigged devices to each table?

I can recognise the appeal of dice (and they are fine when rolling ten dice or less), but technology has its attractions when you decide to shoot with four thirty man Boyz units. That's 240 shots, and far easier to roll on a good dice roller.

I think, to expedite play, we should simply figure the average statistical likely hood of an event happening, rounding down/up as appropriate. Then, each player could have a number of 'mulligans' to play. Each mulligan would essentially skew a result to statistical outliers (IE, I should have failed one save of 3 but I will mulligan to play my outlier so they all save). Imagine how fast games would go!

In short, no . I think rolling dice and waiting for the roll to end is part of the game. On the other hand, my friend had a program for scatter on his phone...so you could determine exact scatter angle without guessing where it points in relation to miniatures. I think that's fine, as it helps clear up ambiguities. Dice rolling programs though..eh...it seems to take away from the tabletop 'game' to me.

I am the friend of AgeofEgos that has the app. The scatter dice function works great but it gives you dice rolls that are right on average with no variation or odd dice rolling. So, if you can do mathhammer in your head you should be able to come up with the same dice rolls that the app does. So, even though I have an app I would not use it.

It is nice to have if you are trying to figure out if a unit is worth it by dice rolls when making up an army list. It does eliminate the dice rolling oddities and gives you a basic rolls basis upon the law of averages.

I'd have to say that I wouldn't like seeing someone use a Dice Rolling App in a real game.

YOU might be on the up and up, but would everyone with one be too?

Sure, people can use loaded dice too, but with an electronic version, I think the temptation would be high for many...

You mean you don't want to use it because it rolls statistically accurately, or does it go strictly by statistics?

I don't think most people have the technical know-how to hack their phone then hack the app. I mean, I've looked at the SDK for the iphone and there's no way I could be arsed to go through all that trouble just to win a game.

I don't play tournaments and I'm all for making the game as smooth as possible; seriously, there've been games with ork players where it takes them 15 minutes just to move not to mention the endless rolling of dice from horde fire/close combat.

It rolls statistically accurately 100% of the time. There is no odd rolls made by the app such as rolling five 1s in a single dice throw.

Never mind altering the code, dice roller apps are almost never truly fair. Most of them just use the default Random function of the language, and these are never any good. A proper dice roller would need its own random number generator code written from scratch, which is something few people without a degree in programming or maths can do.

Pipboy101 wrote:I rolls statistically accurately 100% of the time. There is no odd rolls made by the app such as rolling five 1s in a single dice throw.

This doesn't make sense. What's "statistically accurate" when it's at home? If it can't roll five 1s then the programme is deliberatly skewed to only produce results within a certain margin of probability, and outlying results are excluded. That simply doesn't reflect reality and is one good reason why you should use proper dice.

Computer programmes can't be genuinely random, they are only pseudorandom and rely on an algorithm to give the effect of being random. I've always thought of rolling dice as being an exciting part of the game so why anyone would want to do away with them is beyond me.

There's definitely code for an RNG out there though, possibly for the iphone.

Also, is the RNG function of the language really less accurate than chucking blocks of plastic around?

Pika_power wrote:There's definitely code for an RNG out there though, possibly for the iphone.

Also, is the RNG function of the language really less accurate than chucking blocks of plastic around?

Yeah, less random; computers use a set algorithm to define the range of randomization and then produce a result. The funny thing is that newer, faster computers are less random than older, slower ones. One guy actually wrote a bit of code to slow down the choosing of the number to make it more well, random. He found that by making the computer generate several thousand operations to produce one random number the final result better approached what would happen non-electronically.

All of that said; most scientists agree that basic RNGs are usually "random enough".

Now excuse me while I go drink several beers to clear that out of my head.

While I have no knowldege whatsoever of programming or how difficult it would be for people to do...I personally wouldn't like playing with a dice app just because part of the game is getting to roll buckets of dice and it would just take away from the game for me if dice were removed.

Although it would be easier for someone to have a doctored application for their electro-gizmo of choice, they could also just have a set of fixed dice.
If you don't 'trust' the person you're playing to use honest rulers, dice, codex (they could doctor the text if they're that bent on cheating), etc., you probably really don't want to play them in the first place.

Don't play against jackasses is a good rule of thumb.

lord_blackfang wrote: dice roller apps are almost never truly fair. Most of them just use the default Random function of the language, and these are never any good. .

Uhhhh what are you talking about?

I would definitely not play with this sort of thing. Rolling dice seems like a key part of the game experience to me. If you don't like rolling a lot of dice, don't take units that get tons of attacks. The scatter die one seems OK but probably still unnecessary.

I would not allow it. It takes the fun out of things!

just use a calculator: mines a sharp EL-531W you just press 2ndF then 7, it gives you options one of which is random dice and you just keep pressing enter, with my buddys we just use for rolling for hits wounds ect... but we use real dice for heroes and special wargear and such

I like my cube of dice. They aren't weighted or cheater dice. I just like to pick colors that suit my army, are easily legible, and are the right size (I like 12mm). I can roll a few around in my hand while waiting on my opponent or thinking. I like to put a little "english" on a critical roll, getting my whole body behind it and really rolling with a flourish. You can't do any of these things pushing a button on an iphone.

I debate how much faster an app would be anyway, since the player still has to plug in how many dice to roll and what he needs to hit/wound/save. I'm pretty quick picking up dice while announcing what I am rolling, picking out fails and counting successes. I suppose once you need to roll 30 plus dice it might be a little faster on an app, buy even so, you'll need to do it on the table for your opponent to witness as well, and how many folks want to leave an expensive piece of electronics laying on the table?

Place it on the table, tap the screen, pick up.

I wouldn't mind although I'd find it a little pretentious. Yes, I know you have a $400 phone. Excuse me while I roll my dice manually like the plebeian scum I am.

Lord of battles wrote:just use a calculator: mines a sharp EL-531W you just press 2ndF then 7, it gives you options one of which is random dice and you just keep pressing enter, with my buddys we just use for rolling for hits wounds ect... but we use real dice for heroes and special wargear and such

Mine's a Sharp EL-738. It really speeds up play.

Why am I really scared that GW will read this and make a Dicer Automatic 40K for one gazillion dollars...........

Pika_power wrote:As in a dice roller application for the itouch, iphone or other small handheld device.

The argument for it is that you can roll a few hundred dice and (depending on the quality) have all the hits and misses counted up within a second, making the game go far faster, an invaluable tool for Ork or Tyranid players. The downside is the potential to alter the code to have a disposition towards a higher number, which is enough to make any opponent wary, and I don't think the iphone owner would let you give the dice the floating test!

In tournament play especially, it could help speed games up. Perhaps the TO could supply non-rigged devices to each table?

I can recognise the appeal of dice (and they are fine when rolling ten dice or less), but technology has its attractions when you decide to shoot with four thirty man Boyz units. That's 240 shots, and far easier to roll on a good dice roller.

The problem with dice rolling apps is they can not roll "randomness" correctly. As strange as it may seem "random" is not as random as it looks. So I would be apposed to the program being used in a game I was using. I would only appose it because it may or may not alter the game in a way that may or not be favorable to one of us. I want the same conditions for both sides so I feel like there was nothing other then luck and stupidity for one of losing.

NO, NO, NO. I would not allow an app

What if I, as your opponent, would like to use your app also? It's only fair, and would be the only way I might be convinced you aren't running some kind of rigged program. Now you need to teach me how to use the app, and do you want someone else's grubby little paws on your screen?

I also think it's a little more involved than "Place it on the table, tap the screen, pick up."

I'm guessing here, but I figure it's more like -

Announce what you are rolling for to opponent, specifying how many attacks you have, what you need to roll, etc...
Pick up device from pocket, table, or wherever you keep it safe.
Plug in stats, number of dice, or whatever.
Place on table.
Tap screen.
Check results, making sure to let opponent also see results.
In the case of shooting, assault, vehicle penetration and damage, and anything else requiring multiple rolls, repeat above five steps.
Pick up device and return it to pocket, table, or wherever you keep it safe.

Again, I contend that I can roll a bunch of dice already on the table whilst telling my opponent what I am rolling for, remove the fails, reroll successes for wounds, armor penetration or whatever, and resolve everything as fast or faster than using an app. Only in cases of enormous amounts of dice would an app be potentially faster. In addition, how much time would you lose at the beginning of the game explaining to your opponent how your device works and demoing for him? I would certainly be wary of anything other than dice...

Well, they could always copy the R2D2 dice roller that came with the Star Wars Trival Pursuit game.

Now if you hate the idea of an app doing dice rolls, you could always have played against a guy that used the pop-o-matic off of a Trouble game.

"I need to roll twenty dice rolls for my bolters. HEHehe..."

Pop! "Two"
Pop! "Five"
Pop! "Six"
Pop! "Four"
Pop! "One"
Pop! "Two"
Pop! "Three"
Pop! "Five"
Pop! "Five"
Pop! "One"
etc...

OMFG! WTF! I would take a phone app over that

Pipboy101 wrote:Well, they could always copy the R2D2 dice roller that came with the Star Wars Trival Pursuit game.

Now you're speaking my language. bring 20 of those to a game and have at it. I think the randomized beeping they make; in tandem, is what madness sounds like.

I'm a traditionalist. I love the sound of rolling dice, or that feeling of picking up 40 dice to roll them.

I love how supersticion gets involved too. How its all in the flick of the wrist. And people don't like to pick up 1's that have been rolled previously to do their armour tests with.

The one thing I don't like is those stupid marble affect dice where you can't see whats rolled unless you're right on top of it. Or people rolling dice behind scenery and picking it up before their opponent can see the outcome. Its only a game, but play it fair and in the open!

Similarly you have to roll the scatter dice beside where its going to scatter from, that way you can get the direction right with no arguments.

Dice rant over. I had no idea I was so passionate about a 6 sided piece of plastic!

Proper gaming is analog only. Paper, pencils, dice, and books. I'll have none of your new-fangled dice-rolling apps, thank you very much.

It should be possible to create a relatively true random number generator. As long as both sides use it it should not represent a problem.

A cooler way to go at it though would be to create an actual 40k or warhammer app that lets you tell it how many dice you are rolling, what you have to get to succeed, and then roll the successful dice for the next step, to hit, to wound, cover/armour.

That would be a useful app.