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I've been doing some thinking about Chaos Knight units and thier limitations. Most people just suggest taking more knight units to make a WoC army stronger. I think there needs to be other heavy hitters besides knights.

Ignore armor save attacks are becoming more and more common (Burning alignment comes to mind). Especially if you are facing a lizard army. A Slann with metal and an engine and you can just about kiss small units of knights goodbye. Against a Warriors army, there is usually really no reason to not take lore of metal with any caster you have. I was thinking that a unit is needed that is fast, hard hitting, durable, but that is not durable through a good armor save, and came up with Dragon Ogres. The 4 wounds make them resilient against stuff that ignores armor saves. You can get 3 with great weapons for cheaper than a unit of knights.

Especially against Lizards, Dragon Ogres should shine. Engine doesn't really phase them, and they pretty much laugh at the lore of metal. The WS 4 means that they do well against WS 3 Saurus (On average, you'll get 5 kills from a unit of 3 Dragon Ogres).

I am not saying give up Knights completely, but instead of two knight units, it might be better to field a unit of knights and a unit of Dragon Ogres.

I need to do some mathhammer to see the average points killed per damage dealer, but I am at work without access to my books at the moment.

3 DrOgres w/ GW
231 pts

5 Knights w/ Standard and MoS
230 pts

vs Saurus w/ spears
-Ogres
9 attacks, 6 hits, 5 wounds, 5 dead Saurus
13 Saurus attacks, 6.5 hits, 3.25 wounds
-Knights
10 Knights 5 horses, 6.66 K-hits 2.5 H-hits, 4.44 k-wounds 1.25 H-wounds, 4.533 dead Saurus
13 Saurus attacks, 6.5 hits, 3.25 wounds, 0.542 dead Knights

Say if the Saurus unit was 15 strong w/ full command. The DOgres would lose by 1. Knights would win by 1.
Not sure if I did the Saurus attacks right, I took the stats off the GW website.

Personally I love killing knights, either with my roaring disc rider or with my aetherswording lord. Delicious delicious points

I originally came to the same decision as you Skyth, and went with drogres over knights. After a few games I officially have no idea how to use drogres, as their main strength is in staying alive - but they aren't very good at killing things, at least not things that outnumber them like blocks. I'd be happy to slam them into knights or characters or monsters or chariots (!!), but they always seem to be headed into units that their 9 attaks are far too little to be fighting.

My solution? I'm taking a giant for a bit to see how he works for me. Far far less survivable against shooting, but able to beat anything in combat. And also not the solution you're looking for, I'd guess

- Salvage

avantgarde wrote:3 DrOgres w/ GW
231 pts

5 Knights w/ Standard and MoS
230 pts

vs Saurus w/ spears
-Ogres
9 attacks, 6 hits, 5 wounds, 5 dead Saurus
13 Saurus attacks, 6.5 hits, 3.25 wounds
-Knights
10 Knights 5 horses, 6.66 K-hits 2.5 H-hits, 4.44 k-wounds 1.25 H-wounds, 4.533 dead Saurus
13 Saurus attacks, 6.5 hits, 3.25 wounds, 0.542 dead Knights

Say if the Saurus unit was 15 strong w/ full command. The DOgres would lose by 1. Knights would win by 1.
Not sure if I did the Saurus attacks right, I took the stats off the GW website.

Real numbers for the Saurus: 5 left attacking after Dragon ogres kill 5. 10 Attacks, 5 hits, 5/2 wounds, 5/3 after saves. (Dragon Ogres do have a 4+ save). So DO's have 6 CR (Size plus 5 kills), Saurus have 5 (2 Ranks, standard, rounding up to 2 wounds). Dragon ogres win by 1 and auto break the Saurus due to fear causing and being larger.

The only thing that DO's don't handle well is fully ranked up blocks with WS 4 or higher or hard hitting ASF units. I would easily charge knights into swordmasters or ASF Blackguard where I wouldn't do that with Dragon Ogres. Then again, I wouldn't charge knights into stuff that removes armor saves, especially in a burst (like the Engine), or a unit that has been given killing blow by a Cauldron.

It's a trade off, and one unit of each might be better than two units of knights. On another note...A unit of Dragon Ogres and a unit of Knights will probably get better comp/sports scores than two units of knights.

Dragon Ogres are great but not for the reason you are mentioning (though that works too).

What they are there for is to handle the enemies that chosen, knights, and warriors cannot. Namely heavily armored/tough units such as other knights or stubborn monsters. Str7 cuts through such units very quickly.

I personally would run 4 of them with great weapons and dam the costs (this also lets them crush ranked units beneath their feet if you need it to happen).

While they are more resilient to no-armor-save things they are less resilient to small arms fire such as crossbows str4 magic missiles.

In case you were curious, yes trolls also work for this with the tradoffs that they are stupid but have regen.

I think that after you take so many knights, GW Dragon Ogres are a better take because they can handle targets knights aren't really good at.

I haven't really got the hang of them myself though, as I've only played a couple of games with them.

Okay, ran some survivability numbers...Comparing th efollowing units:

5 Chaos Knights (MoS, Musician, Standard)
3 Dragon Ogres (Great Weapons)
4 Chaos Ogres (MoS, Great Weapons, Musician, Standard)

All the units hit about as hard. DO's are vulnerable to Terror and panic though. The Chaos Ogres move slower (Flee/Pursue only 2d6 also)

Here are the points given per hit (Or casting in the case of flickering fire and burning alignment) for various things...In the order Knights, Dragon Ogres, Chaos Ogres

Repeat Xbows: 3.33 / 4.28 / 5.09
Burning Alignment: 105 / 33.69 / 32.08
Flickering Fire: 80 / 40.51 / 42.40
Empire Cannon: 50 / 48.13 / 38.19
Dwarf Cannon: 50 / 32.08 / 30.56
Str 1, ignore AS: 10 / 3.21 / 3.06