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Greetings from the lands of the dead.

As you can probably tell from my sig and ranking, I've started a TK army-yes, there are rumors of them getting redone soon, but has that ever stopped me before ?

So anyway, I had a few tactical questions that I've been pondering-any help would be appreciated. Thanks in advance .

1) Is the casket of souls worth it in list under 2000pts?
2) Skeleton horsemen (of either flavour)-yay or nay?
3) Are there ANY redeeming qualities to the bone giant at all, or should I just go for catapults?

LLF.

Also: Yay for 900th post!

I'm a newbie TK player myself, so here's 3 answers for you.

1. Only if you're going for an all shooty list, and even then it's marginal

2. Nay!

3. It's nails, but doesn't do anything Tomb Scorpions and other units can't do a reasonable impression of. Plus, I like catapults, so I'd recommend those every time.

No TK expert, but I'll chime in.

Heavy Horse can be fine if you're willing to take them in larger numbers, but I personally prefer Chariots over them. And no, I don't think there are any redeeming qualities for the Bone Giant, sadly.

No experience with the Casket, but I'd stay away until 1,850+ points.

Ragnar4 will tell you that 15 Heavy Horse with warbanner are really great. I don't necessarily see it, but you may get something out of it.

I've read some about the Bone Giant getting some mileage in comped environments. He *does* break ranks and can put something of a hurt on knight units if he catches them on that flank. WS 3 makes it hard to be consistent though.

RZ

Light Cav as a blocking unit are also pretty solid.

Yes I get behind Heavy Cav as a unit with regularity. They were absolutely rockstar. Here's the problem though; rumor has it that Tomb Kings will be losing them as a unit. So if you have them, use them now, but ask yourself if your willing to spend $70 on an absolutely rockstar unit that you may not be able to use in 6 months. If I were in a tournament environment, it would be justifiable, if not... I'd have a hard time quantifying it.

As for the Giant, it's a decent unit. I've seen it do 18 wounds to Chaos Heavy Cavalry of Khorne, which was awesome. I've also seen it whiff against Night Goblins. On average 3 or 4 wounds is what I seem to get before saves, even using the Giants super awesome charge gimmick.

This is ONE thing it can do that the scorpion can't. IT can break ranks, so on average, 3 wounds will put you ahead of your opponent if you're on the flank or rear. That's his real strength as a small footprint rank breaker.

I hate the Casket, it's too expensive for what it doesn't do. It's more useful for its -1 to all casting attempts than the actual effect of the casket itself.

I found this site a while ago when I was considering starting TK. I found it useful.

http://z4.invisionfree.com/Khemri/index.php?showtopic=572

http://www.damommasboyz.com/articles/fantasy/dr_khemri01.html

If you scroll down on the left the links to parts 2 and 3 are there too. It's a very thorough analysis of the TK from last edition, most of it applies.

Casket of Souls just gets dispelled, never seen it casted. It can be used to prevent dispel scrolls and dice used on your important spells, but it seems like a waste of points and a rare slot. Also it forces the Priest or LHP to be static all game.

Tomb Kings and Princes are really good in combat. Use a Tomb Guard escort or have em lead a unit of Chariots. though after switching to a LHP I will likely not go back. The spells from LHP is beyond usefull in an army that is magic required, but has lack of magic.

Horsemen are just terrible for TKs, expect them to die early in the game.

I'm actually really fond of big blocks of skeletal warriors, they are weak and will likely not kill anything but you cause fear and can easily win on combat resolution.

Tomb Guard are a GREAT unit!!!

Ushabti I have seen wreck multiple units, the problem with them is they have a weak armor save and as they get wounded, there is not a LP or LHP spell available to heal them. spells are simply needed elsewhere.

Carrionrs have horrid stats and no armor and I would not reccomend using them, even for mage hunting.

Chariots are hit and miss, they can be mighty powerful or weaksauce. I would recommend using multiple chariots or none at all. They are only good in numbers in my view.

Bone Giant has bad stats, multiple attacks to compensate, but bad stats are bad.

Catapults, if you are like me... they will misfire every game. If you dont misfire they are a good unit, and your best overall choice for the Rare slot(s)

Carrion have horrid stats? take four of them and put them up against any, ANY warmachine in the game. They beat up on everything but Hellcannons and Dwarf Machines! They also March Block like champs.

Tomb Guard are lukewarm at best.

I'm not going to rant again about Horsemen, but both light and heavy cav are underrated.

Ragnar4 wrote:Carrion have horrid stats? take four of them and put them up against any, ANY warmachine in the game. They beat up on everything but Hellcannons and Dwarf Machines! They also March Block like champs.

Tomb Guard are lukewarm at best.

I'm not going to rant again about Horsemen, but both light and heavy cav are underrated.

They do have horrid stats. How do you warmachine hunt or march block? Unless your facing a melee only army, I see them getting shot to hell. Even on the charge, such a bad WS and S.

Not sure what you mean but, Really? I have had nothing but success with Tomb Guard.

I dont see how the Cavs are underrated, they have low skeleton stats that are designed for big blocks, not a few models! Either no armor or light armor and a shield makes them really weak and a waste of points.

Outnmuber + fear, that's all your worried about. T4 is huge against str 3 models. On average you'll do a wound against most stuff, which means they are normally rolling 2d6 and only sticking around on ones. You'll kill 3 war-machines on average a game.

Why is your opponent getting a chance to shoot at your carrion? They move 40 inches a turn. They can go from being out of range and out of sight of your opponent to in combat with a war-machine and your opponent will never even SNIFF a shot at them.

They are too expensive. WAY to expensive in a unit that wants to outnumber to win.

I argue argue argue about Heavy Cav. You keep talking about how they are designed to be in a big block. 2+2=4, Put them in a big block perhaps??? They cost 2 skeletons and have a US2, AND they have a 4+ armor save without any other upgrades. 2 ranks, standard (warbanner), and outnumber is usually enough to win, and cause your opponent to break on anything other than double ones. Start them on a flank and work your way towards the center, so that you are threatening most units flanks and they wreck face.

Quit focusing on the stats, Focus on the speed.

You absolutely must make good use of fear. The high cost/low stats of most of your army means that you'll rarely win by much. However, Khemi's raising restrictions means that you have to start with big blocks and keep them that way rather than expand them. Your heroes are also fragile from lack of armor.

Heavy Horse do move faster than Skeletons and cost the same for US, but also lose US faster from casualties. The speed is important, since it is critical that you charge and break somebody. They are also harder to raise per US than Warriors. The more shooting the enemy has, the less useful a block of Heavy Horse will be as focused fire exposes many of their weaknesses. They are also unlikely to charge something from the front and win, and I suspect chariots will do a better job breaking ranks from the side.

Tomb Guard have their strengths. They are tougher and more dangerous than Warriors, for a 3 point price increase. They aren't that much harder to raise, and are a great choice if you haven't put the Icon of the Eye or Undying Banner somewhere already.

Don't play in a meta that features lots of dispel dice. TK need their magic phase to work, and that's unlikely if the other guy is sporting 6 dispel dice or more. Never, ever hang a unit out to dry and then depend on a movement spell going off, because it's highly likely that any particular important spell will eat a scroll or roll bad.

The Grog wrote:

Don't play in a meta that features lots of dispel dice. TK need their magic phase to work, and that's unlikely if the other guy is sporting 6 dispel dice or more. Never, ever hang a unit out to dry and then depend on a movement spell going off, because it's highly likely that any particular important spell will eat a scroll or roll bad.

I'm cool with everything you said but this.

Instead of refusing to play TK in a DD heavy environment, Instead prioritize your game to killing your opponents dispell dice generators.

To be quite honest, that should probably be on top of your "stuff to do today during my game" list anyway.

1. Kill enemy DD Generators
2. Use carrion to pound war-machines and march-block
3. Use Ushabti to knock out opponents ogre models.


blah blah blah.

You always want to kill enemy magic sources. Undead do ok with this due to magic charges, and TK also have burrowing suicide scorps.

But a competent enemy knows this, and will guard his mages, so it's not always feasable. This is just from my experience, but I'd honestly rather play another army than take TK up against somebody with 7 DD. You are unlikely to accomplish anything at all in the magic phase unless you have a casket and the enemy has no way to put wounds on it and feels the need to dispel it, and TK with no magic sucks. Being denied magic movement or re-raising can be dealt with, but being denied both always crippled me. TK magic is more vulnerable to heavy dispel die lists than VC due to the fixed and relatively small casts, although it does better against 3-4 DD opponents.

Then you've (usually) got magic death cutting your blocks under outnumbering in the process.

I would say the Casket of souls is a must against low leadership armies, just take one to be safe, if it goes off & a lot of enemy units see it and they roll a lot of boxcars, KABOOM, much more effective than skeletal archers. (For a hell of a lot more points though)

Its all situational though, its a hit and miss.

The Casket of Souls is great, the only concern I have is the fact that it forces one LP or LHP to be static in the back field for a full game :(

I see no problem with that, have it be a normal liche priest and place it near a unit of archers or in 2,000+ points a catapult, you get to shoot the casket and the catapult can then be shot twice if you use righteous smiting.

-2000 Sit it next to archers
+2000 next to catapult, which shouldn't be moving anyway.

If you REALLY need extra magic on the fields of battle just grab another liche priest, 2000 pts, 1 tomb king, 2 liche priests, 1 liche priest+casket.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also remember to use a tomb king in 2,000+ and put him with a unit of tomb guard or skeleton warriors and then he can use his My Will Be Done to make them move another movement, Charge, and when in contact use Righteous Smiting sincen the tomb king can use both in a turn, that means 2 combat rounds with charge bonuses.

I always used 1 prince, 1 LHP, and 1 LP w/casket. Sure it is very character heavy, but that is quite a few casts at good values, even 7 DD shouldn't be enough to get all of it. Add in the fact that I usually brought the banner of undying legion (and occasionally the staff of ravening), something should get through. If I was playing 2250 (common around where I play) I would even add a LP on horse to the list. 11-13 (adding in the casket) dice thrown on spells that always go off (and never miscast) + some nifty bound items means that the 6-7 dice that a normal heavy DD list brings isn't going to be enough to stop it all.

I guess what I'm saying in regards to TK magic: Go big or go home.

That being said, king lists are very viable, but it pretty much like playing with no magic for a good portion of your games. It requires you to play more chariots and horses, since your blocks wont be fast enough to threaten anything. A good list for sure, but I prefer the stand back and smite lists.

A 7 DD army is likely to stop most of it. You have 1 d6, 1 2d6 that's tied down, 2 3d6's rerolled, the casket, and the power 3 banner.

7 dice will shut down the banner, the prince's 1d6, and the casket. That leaves 3 dice plus scrolls to tie down the LHP for a turn or two. The critical point is the priest manning the casket. With a casket you have no good shoot twice target. (No archers don't really count. The only thing they threaten are small skirmishers, which basically mean they are defending the casket). So you need to do something useful with those incantations, and the 12 inch range constricts you.

That turn or two when the enemy runs his scrolls down is TK's weakest point, and the area you need to control. You cannot get stuck in a turn where you NEED to get magic charges or raises off and the enemy still has scrolls left. VC can(could?) help avoid this by raising new stuff, but TK can't.

The TK requirement of 1 priest and 1 mummy is a real millstone at times. A 4 priest army or a 4 mummy army could do better, I think.

Last I checked that a casket list usually brings a SSC to pair up with the lich manning the casket. There really isn't a better option for smiting in a TK army, especially since they should be both camped out on a hill if you have one, and TK usually castle up their shooting units for smiting purposes.

Using 7 dice to dispel all what you said isn't as easy as you make it out to be. Since when has matching DD vs PD 1 for 1 worked reliably? Even against a Power level 3 banner there is a 33% chance they fail to dispel if only one dice is used. On d6 vs d6 it is about the same (and if the roll to cast is high, should draw 2 dice if your opponent understands probability) 2d6 castings often require 3 dice if they value is high, and only rarely require only 1 dice. So those 3 extra dice REALLY should go onto the spells that you have already assigned... Meaning that your opponent is down to scrolls. Most lists I've seen posted, played against, or seen in action only have 1-4 scrolls, 3 being uncommon, 4 being really rare. (2 scroll caddies is the most common time this happens, and then they don't have 7 dd...) The can't really use them for very long, and a full TK magic phase will run them out in a turn or two if they try to lock up the magic phase.

TKs don't really need to get charges off to win. The nice thing about being unbreakable is that you can take a charge, and if you have enough bodies can hold until your counter charge unit shows up. As long as you aren't foolish and show a flank to a strong enemy, the block units can hold for quite a bit of time. The only units that really need to charge to win are chariots, heavy horsemen, ubshabti, and Tomb scorpions. These are all counter charge/flanking units, and should be deployed as such. Where urgency gains its power if the fact that you can charge things that were not in range or LoS at the beginning of the turn. If you are moving in a way that requires that your urgency MUST go off, then you screwed up earlier somewhere (usually deployment).

VC still have to worry about not rolling high enough, most VC armies that are magic heavy have PD in the low teens, yet they fail to cast some of their spells. (and since only 1 spell is actually a threat, it is even easier for a 7 DD w/scroll army to handle, hordes of crap aren't threatening) Compare that to a TK magic phase, where ALL of the dice rolled go into spells that will go off. 6 dice from the LHP, 2 from the LP, 2 from the casket, and 1 from the prince. so 11 dice (did not count bound items for either army).

TK are less reliant on the magic phase than VC, since they have access to shooting units. This is very important since VC have no way to force an opponent to engage them. TK can just pelt the enemy with arrows and make them come to them. 240 points spent on 30-60 shots a turn that always hits on 5s and 90 on a SSC that can possibly shoot during the magic phase is a powerful incentive for your opponent to do something about it.

The real millstone that all undead armies have is that if a single character dies, the whole armies dies shorty after. The TK restriction really only hurts at low levels like 500-1000, since they are so costly.

Like I said though, Casket + SSC in 2,000+ games. That means you get the Light of Death & TWO shots from a stone thrower that causes magical & flaming hits and causes panic.

Take the casket it 2,000+ games in my opinion.

All of the rare choices are fine at 2k points.

What you run into, though, with a casket at 2k points along with a hero character is that you have some awesome magic, but nothing to put it into. It takes some careful balancing to be able to have a casket and use it effectivley.

Casket + SSC + character array at 2k is really expensive.

If you take a charge, you'll almost surely loose your outnumbering and that's really bad for Undead. You have your flanking units, but so do they and theirs usually cost less.

As for archers, they take up tons of frontage and it takes 12 shots to get 1 kill on an Empire Swordsman (or any other T3 L armor & shield). 96 points to kill 4-5 per turn, or 8 if you can smite it? Warmachine and magic fire are what drives opponents to come to you. I respect no bowfire that doesn't involve the words 'Wood Elves' "repeating crossbow' or 'black powder'. Khemi's ability to move and target skirmishers without penalties does interesting things, but doing any real damage requires dozens of archers.

So? All undead armies are character heavy. It comes with having complete crap in the way of troops and needing to support them with magic and war machines. A SSC is cheap, the characters are mandatory (well the one liche isn't, but you normally would take it anyways) so that leaves the casket of souls as being the sole splurge unit... at 165 it isn't that bad for what it could potentially do. They have to dispel it, or do something about it.

So bring dozens of archers. They are pretty decent, and aren't expensive, so why not?

Shooting doesn't have to cause mass casualties to be effective. Knocking off rank bonus, killing small support units (like opposing handgunners, war machines, fast cav and the like) is enough. Trying to shoot to death SCR blocks isn't a good investment in time after knocking off the first bonus.

What are you taking a charge from? If it is normal human stated guys, nothing much to fear, they won't kill you very well, and even if you get the charge its not like you will kill much of them. (so they get their attacks anyways.) If it is a super choppy unit of doom, the same holds true, but you have very little chance of winning, so why would you even want to charge or let yourself be charged? (to tie them up obv) Sure losing models sucks, that is why TK should be taking 25 model skeleton blocks, so they have some extra numbers to absorb losses. It is also why you should fire arrows for a couple of turns to lower the enemies SCR and model count. Having a huge magic phase can also replenish lost models, so that is a nice thing.