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There is a great discussion on FFG's Deathwatch announcement over in News & Rumors thread. Amid the many excellent points being made, I found this very elegantly written challenge to the prevailing excitement:

Mellon wrote:I do not have any particular aversion to space marines. I enjoy playing them on the TT, and I enjoy using them as occasional NPCs in my DH-campaigns. I just find it hard to imagine them as deep characters with complex emotions and motivations. Judging from 20 years of reading fluff about marines, they seem far too brainwashed and single minded to offer much variation and social interactions. Their size and demeanor will make any social interactions very coloured by the average imperial citicens preconceptions of Space Marines. I can't imagine a marine falling in love, feeling lust, being sneaky, betraying the other marines, crying over a long lost father he has outlived by fifteen decades, etc. There is so much of the huamaity that is lacking in spacemarines, it just makes them feel alien. That is what I am worried about.

I would love an article that outlines the emotional span of marines and how it interferes and conflicts with their brainwashed codes of behaviour. I want a "Pride and predjudice" type campaign. I want discussions on how love affairs between members of different chapters are viewed and what social stigmas are associated to such affairs. I want morally ambiguos stories that lets our gaming group experience deeply conflicting wants and ethical greys. I want sneak, subterfuge and the ability to further the story by clever social interaction. I want the baseline of behaviour to be at the level where a truly noble sacrifice will shine, and not just be the order of the day. And I think these subjects will not be particularily touched upon in the Deathwatch book. But I must admit I'd really love to be in error.

Now there's the conventional "no more Space Marines in 40k, thank you" camp and then there is a real complaint like the one Mellon outlines above. I'll paraphrase his sentiment a bit into my own question: is there enough going on in a Space Marine's emotional experience to make them worth caring about as characters much less trying to RP one in a table top campaign? There are a lot of reasons to quickly say "no" and move on. Not least among them is Black Library's love of trope-toting authors. Virtually every one of the big names at BL writes novels filled with stereotypical characters. The IG comes off as truly monolithic--a titanic army of clones marching across the universe fighting basically the same battle again and again. At the squad level there is some variation to be sure. There's a cowardly one, a grim one, one with real conviction, the grizzled vet, etc, etc. But every squad seems to have these same members. (Don't even get me started about the homogeneity of the officer corps.) Even Ciaphas Cain, the commissar who breaks the mold, has very little internal emotional life beyond unconvincingly insisting in an oh so very English first person that his care for his men and actual heroism are merely pragmatism and arch-cowardice. (Getting very thin, Mr. Mitchell!)

But no group suffers from this rehashing of the same character over and over and over again as much as the Space Marines. At least there are about a dozen or so stock Guardsmen to chose from. There is only one Space Marine, it would seem, although he does come in at least 18 different colors. He's justifiably arrogant, childishly naive, not exceptionally bright, has trouble forming anything but the most rudimentary sentences, andis tremendously uncritical in whatever position his superiors happen to hold (i.e., whether for Horus or for the Emperor). I'm painting with a broad brush here. The are some exceptions. But even the exceptions seems to be carbon copies of one another. Consider Garviel Loken and Saul Tarvitz. Beside the color of their armor, how do they differ?

I would submit that this is not how Space Marines must be. It is simply the way that the less than truly epic imaginations of Dan Abnett and Graham MacNeill, among others, have rendered them. To prove the point we have only to look at the Primarchs. The background of 40k, to my mind, is always strongest where it is not derived from one mind alone. The Primarchs have been around for a while. We started with a generalized stereotype of each but a decade or more of conflicting fluff has produced divergent viewpoints about these demi-gods. There has emerged from this maelstrom a sense that the Primarchs have very distinct personalities. The kind of criticisms that Mellon levels at Space Marines do not seem to so readily apply to the Primarchs. So why should they apply so readily to the rank and file?

One point that I disagree with Mellon on is the idea that Space Marines need to be able to engage in romance. That strikes me as silly. Not just "Pretty Marines silly" (although, that too) but also silly in the sense that romantic affection is itself just another boring trope that Western audience over-rely on for character development. Even in real life, so-called "regular" people have tremendous difficulty understanding the choice to live as a celibate, for example as a member of a religious order. Is this because such people lack internal emotional complexity? Obviously not. Space Marines do not need to fall in love or even to have conventional family relationships in order to be interesting.

So what should they be like? Or, put better, what are they already like in your imagination? How would you RP a Space Marine without having him be a rank simpleton?

Need to be able to engage in romance? Whyfor? That's... not what Marines do. That's contrary to a Marine's world view in every way. It's not that Marines choose not to, they don't have the concept. It's essentially bred out of them. They don't have the instinctual need to reproduce.

Marines do have enough depth to be RP'ed, but I don't think that them lacking the ability to 'love' someone makes them shallow.

Oh, H.B.M.C., you post reveals so much about you. All joking aside, romance does not proceed from an instinctual need to reproduce. I think the comparison to real world religious is apt. Marines forswear romantic relationships as they become fully-fledged battle brothers because they attain to a spirituality (and lifestyle) that does not allow for such entanglements. Regardless of whether they retain any physical capability in this regard, they should hypothetically be able to fall in love. But they do not allow themselves to do so--although I doubt it is a common temptation given the sort of lives they lead. (I don't want to go off on some Space Marine homosexuality tangent here as I can't see anyone wanting to because I refuse to acknowledge that someone would want to RP that.) If a Space Marine did somehow manage to fall in love, I could see it developing into a situation completely understandable to most 40k fans: unrequited, unexpressed, unachievable, unrealistic. At the end of the day, however, I'd end up at the same practical conclusion as you (no romance plots in my Space Marine RPG) even if I don't agree with how you got there (Space Marines cannot love).

So how would you RP your Space Marine then?

I see it as far more clinical. Marines don't eschew romantic relationships (or even attachment) not because of some high-minded sense of spirituality, but because it serves no function to them.

They are warriors who exist to destroy the enemies of the Emperor. Anything that doesn't go towards furthering that goal has no significance for them.

Excellently put Manchu. I'm glad to see that I am an inspiration to thoughts.

As for marines and love, this could turn into a debate all of it's own, so I'll try to keep it short and centered around what we are actually talking about here. I believe that the human emotion of "love" is appliable at a lot of different situations, some of them might tangent physical lust or even a willingness to reproduce. But consider for example the love that a parent might feel for it's child, or two siblings might feel for eachother. That is a love that is all about taking care of, about being willing to sacrifice oneself for the sake of the beloved. It has very little to do with eroticism or reproductive drives. This sort of love is something that I believe will be common and indeed encouraged within a spacemarine chapter. And this sort of love could be a mechanic in interesting stories.

Romance is indeed an overused plothook, I'd even call it trite and boring. This is especialy true if you stay within the confines of "traditional family values". *shudder* Sex and erotica is extremely hard to roleplay in a meaningful way in a regular gaming group. But a brotherly love for that bloodangel that you have only served two decades with (but what decades, the band of brothers is indeed forged in the heat of battle!) is a good character concept. And if it is a love that is even stronger than the love you feel towards your own ravens company, then we even have a plot hook.

However, my main points remains this: Dungeons and Dragons 4th ed is indeed a roleplaying game, even though it contains very little material for character developement and stories outisde of "kill stuff -> gain xp". So I don't see any problem with people considering a spacemarine worthy of roleplaying, in the sense that a regular DnD4 character is worthy of roleplaying. Unfortunately, from all the fluff I've read about spacemarines I can't imagine them with any greater depth than that. And I want greater depth. And here with Deathwatch FFG + GW has a unique opportunity to actually add a lot more depth to the marines of the galaxy. Bring them out of the anonymity!

I do sincerely hope that the background and focus of Deathwatch will be such that it greatly exapnds upon the width and depth of the marines psyche and moralities. I hope they have loads and loads of background info on things like:
* in-chapter-intrigues, what is there to fight over and how? How can the marines assigned to the Deathwatch be used as a tool to get this?
* How do the selection process for the Deathwatch marines _actually_ work? Does chapter masters pull strings and call favors to send one of their best, to gain the extra knowledge and honour it brings? Or do they try to wiggle out of it, in order to not loose one of their best on stupid inquisitor-controlled suicide missions? Do the marine in question have a say?
* The morality issues and practical problems of requesting munition and worker support from an imperial planet
* All those marines you see in the holo-vids and propaganda shots all over the imperium. Are they an actual squad of ultramarines that are followed around by camera servitors at all times? Or are they actors in plastic armors acting against silicone monsters? Are the other marines envious of their job?
* Cooperating with other marine units. Will the elites in the deathwatch mingle with the regular marine grunts during off hours?

What I expect is things like: Famous battles, famous deaths, famous victories. And the background characers will be famous heroes that fought in a famous battle and died a famous death to ensure a famous victory. All very well for a rpg, but not quite what inspires me to great campaigns. And the DH/RT rulessystem is not good enough to be the base of a combat centered campaign.

And H.B.M.C. Like manchu, I'm quite curious as to how marines can be roleplayed with greater depth than DnD characters. Could you give me some examples?

@H.B.M.C.: I think that appraisal falls into Mellon's criticism of Marines as one dimensional. I certainly don't think that Marines need love stories to make them complex enough to RP over the course of a campaign (as expressed in OP). But I think that they are certainly capable of a wider range of emotions than "serving emperor goooooood." And if that sentiment is more than a cave man like grunt and does signify a complicated worldview worth exploring through RP, then how is it different from "high minded spirituality"?

@Mellon: Well, I think you are restricting your analysis to the hurrdurr Marines of Graham MacNeill's duller pages. I think Deathwatch is primarily interesting because each PC will be able to step forth as a representative of his chapter. In other words, each will be a sort of stand-in for his Primarch against the stand-ins of other Primarchs. The great dynamic of the original brotherhood (minus traitors) thus comes into play along with all the huge personalities of the Emperor's sons. Now that's not to say that my Space Wolf is going to be a carbon copy of Leman Russ. But my Space Wolf will have spent a great deal of time reflecting on Russ as a man and not just as a demi-divine founder. In this sense, I can tell you a great deal about his complex personality contradictions that make him worth exploring as a developable character. He's superstitious but ironic, savage but humane, outwardly boisterous and gregarious but internally lonely for his own true pack. That's the tip of the iceberg.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I see it as far more clinical. Marines don't eschew romantic relationships (or even attachment) not because of some high-minded sense of spirituality, but because it serves no function to them.

They are warriors who exist to destroy the enemies of the Emperor. Anything that doesn't go towards furthering that goal has no significance for them.

QFT, part of the horror of the 40K setting is that "we" do this -- to our children as well -- as the only means to survive.

I think you'll find that much of the roleplaying content of the game will be very much focused on the individual characters having their own....err.... problems sounds a bit too emo but it'll do for the mo'.... to overcome. For example how a member of the Blood Angels struggles to deal with and overcome the Black Rage, especially when he is isolated from any support from his brethren. Or Black Templars being forced to deal with and cooperate with psykers, plus the individual quirks of each and every character as well.

Deathwatch, I'd imagine, will be a game more about team-work than any other.

In Dark Heresy you're a clueless Acolyte given the 'Go here and do this' order of your Inquisitor (who you may never even meet), and are always well appraised of the fact that you are utterly expendable and that you may die at any moment (especially if there's a psyker in your group).

In Rogue Trader you are a leader among men, responsible for your area of the ship, working towards a common goal but still with a healthy amount of 'what's in it for me!' about it - you're intergalactic profiteers after all.

Now think of Marines - not Marine singular, but Marines plural - they are a squad. They live, fight and die together. If they do not have total and complete confidence that their (almost literal) brothers do not have their back they cannot function as an efficient destructive tool. For Space Wolves this is an even closer bond, as they will stay in their Squad (their Pack) for life, until death takes them or the lonely existence of a Lone Wolf grips them.

But take that one step further - this is a Deathwatch squad. By their very definition they are not a squad of close-knit brothers willing to kill and die for one another. Sure, every Marine knows his duty and would gladly give his life to save those of his fellow Marines and for the Emperor, but the other members of the squad are not his brothers.

They are Marines from other Chapters, with other customs - some similar (I could see the individualistic nature of White Scars and Space Wolves working well together, or the dogged adherence to ritual of the Ultramarines and Imp Fists gelling quite nicely) but some will be drastically different to one another - a Blood Raven working side by side with a Black Templar? A Dark Angel being forced to work with a Space Wolf? A Flesh Tearer teamed up with an Iron Hands Marine.

These people will often have deep-seeded philosophical differences that are irrevocably incompatible with one another. The fatalistic Doom Eagle Librarian will not get on with the firebrand Black Templar Terminator. The Raven Guard Tactical Marine will have difficulties bringing his strengths to bare when teamed with a Blood Angel Assault Marine. How does a Wolf Priest (ie. Apothecary) go about harvesting the Gene Seed of a Chapter that is alien to his own and shares none of his customs.

Yet they have to! They have to work as a team, and that interaction will bring the RP-y-ness out of this, along with any other internal conflicts they might have (the aforementioned Blood Angel dealing with the Red Thirst, the secretive Dark Angel who hates the very concept of working with outsiders, etc.

You don't get this in 40K. A Marine is a Marine is a Marine in 40K. The internal and external conflicts of a Marine don't factor into how many MEQ's your Tac Squads can kill a turn, or the best way to deploy to counter-charge the Nob Bikers when they arrive. Even Deathwatch, as a squad within 40K, are just an excuse to pain a bunch of Marines black and give them all moulded GW or FW shoulder pads.

When I made my Deathwatch army I modelled every single Marine specifically for a purpose from a character perspective, from the most basic Deathwatch Tac Marine to the two guys with the Lightning Claws and Cyclone Launchers in my Deathwatch Terminator Assault Squad.

My Deathwatch Assault Marine squad is led by Flesh Tearer, but the Squad Leader (old 2nd Ed term for the 2IC of a Marine Squad) is an Imperial Fist. How does he take orders from someone who does not follow the Codex Astartes as he does? What's worse is the squad has two Black Templars, two White Scars and a Space Wolf. How does he, as the squads second in command, exert any sort of authority over a group of Marines who have no respect for his methods of war? Does he find some solace in the single Iron Hands Marine in the unit, or does that Marine shun him because of his lack of bionics? How does he follow a commander who does not view the situation from different angles, but rather views it simply from the 'How far away am I and how quickly can I kill them all?".

My two DW Tac Squads and my DW Dev Squad are all led by successors of the Imperial Fists - one Imp Fist, one Crimson Fist and one Black Templar. They each have White Scars, Blood Angels, Salamanders, Space Wolves, Flesh Tearers, and other Chapters to command. How do they do that? How does the Black Templar, awash with a need to fight the enemy up close, keep to the code of the Deathwatch and their speciality with advanced ranged Imperial technology. How does the Crimson Fist, haunted by the spectre of his virtually destroyed Chapter, lead men who know nothing of his customs into battle and not constantly fear losing them all due to a mistake he makes. And how does the Imperial Fist balance his own confidence with what his squad-mates can only see as arrogance?

And then every squad has a Dark Angel in it - the kind of person who talking to is like drawing blood from a stone. These Marines don't just have trouble interacting with other Marines, they don't want to interact with other Marines. Or the fact that the unit's Apothecary is a Blood Angel - someone for whom the sight blood is a constant reminder of the madness and rage that awaits all of his kin.

And leading them all is an Ultramarine Captain. How can he trust his fellow squad leaders when he himself must contend with a Command Squad that contains such conflicting personalities? He knows their goal - their mission - and he knows his men understand the importance of that mission. But can they put their rather considerable differences aside for the good of all, or is each engagement going to be a show of mixed discipline. How should he command them? Should he try to earn their respect? Move them with fear? Maybe appeal to their duty to the Imperium? He might be able to get the Black Templars onside by screaming oaths of loyalty and then tirades of hatred at the enemy - but with the White Scars listen to that? He might be able to get the Wolves and the Flesh Tearers onside with a brash frontal charge... but the Raven Guard are going to have a problem with that and the Imperial Fists are going to start quoting line and verse of the Codex Astartes to him if he does.

Deathwatch isn't a game about RP'ing a singular Marine against the universe. It's a game about RP'ing a Squad of disparate Marines who normally cannot work with one another and becoming a cohesive effective unit.

First, that was a insightful and very well written response.

But I think you need to clarify that last line about not RPing a single Marine against the universe in favor of RPing a squad of Marines. Obviously, each PC is (usually) playing only one character. In most RPGs, he literally is up against the universe. His fellow PCs could turn out to be just as (or much, much more) dangerous as any NPC or monster. It's only through mutual character development that the PCs truly come to trust and work with one another. Think of the classic arguments in D&D between a paladin and a rogue. Throw in some diametrically opposed alignments and we end up with a good chance of a real fight. (This is how it has gone in my groups at least.) Now this sounds an awful lot like the issues that could come up in a Deathwatch squad. But then again if all that Marines really think is "All that is important is that I destroy the enemies of the Emperor" then I don't see how the kind of inter-chapter conflicts that you've brought up are going to happen. Is the Space Wolf going to complain that he doesn't like the shade of yellow on the Imperial Fist's pauldron? Clearly, you know better than that. So in fact Space Marines have a lot more going on between their Lyman's ears than the brainwashing that Mellon was complaining about and that you seemed to declare earlier. Each marine is an individual. Even amongst their "brothers" inside a Chapter there are tensions that go beyond friendly rivalries. You're right to point out that being from different Chapters will be a big issue. But I don't think it creates the issue so much as magnifies it. The source of the issue is the individuality of each marine, the unique personality. I have no doubt that there are individual Space Wolves and Dark Angels out there who might get on better with one another than anybody in their respective Chapters. Hell, there's a good argument that marines from different Chapters are more likely to get along as the number from each present declines. The individual Dark Angel will be, as you said, forced to see past the surface differences by getting to know the individual Space Wolf. So my SW might get along famously with your UM Captain even though he has some pretty negative opinions about UMs in general because that particular captain, based on his unique personality quirks (and the likelihood that my Wolf is misinformed or unreasonably prejudiced), is not like what he thinks all the other UMs are like.

Much of what we 'know' about Space Marines now comes from Black Library novels.

In them we see that Marines are indeed still human at the core, and 'suffer' and/or are 'blessed' with just about every human failing, emotion and strength as 'the rest of us'.

I really don't see there being many problems at all roleplaying them.

Manchu wrote:But I think you need to clarify that last line about not RPing a single Marine against the universe in favor of RPing a squad of Marines. Obviously, each PC is (usually) playing only one character. In most RPGs, he literally is up against the universe. His fellow PCs could turn out to be just as (or much, much more) dangerous as any NPC or monster.

Then that's true of any RPG and really neither a point for or against RP'ing a Marine.

And yes, I know each player has a single character (in most cases), but that doesn't make what I said any less true. You can't RP in a vacuum and try to develop your character without acknowledging or interacting with the other members of the group (I'm sure you could try that... don't know how successful you'd be). And Deathwatch is something that will have a heavy emphasis on developing as a group.

Manchu wrote:It's only through mutual character development that the PCs truly come to trust and work with one another. Think of the classic arguments in D&D between a paladin and a rogue. Throw in some diametrically opposed alignments and we end up with a good chance of a real fight. (This is how it has gone in my groups at least.).

I've got that in my current campaign. At the end of Act I they came across a rogue Tech-Priest, and while our Tech-Priest sweet-talked him the Priest decided he was having none of that and wanted to crack some heretic skulls. The Arbite, who shared the same view as the Priest but knew that simply attacking the rogue Tech-Priest was the wrong way to approach it, basically had to hold him back and stop the Priest from attacking (opposed Willpower Tests - worked really well) while our Tech-Priest did the talking. I can see similar items (or, methods of approach to different situations) being a big part of Deathwatch, as in any other RPG. I don't see why Deathwatch would be unique here.

Manchu wrote:Now this sounds an awful lot like the issues that could come up in a Deathwatch squad. But then again if all that Marines really think is "All that is important is that I destroy the enemies of the Emperor" then I don't see how the kind of inter-chapter conflicts that you've brought up are going to happen.

And how is that the fault of the game? You only get out of an RPG what you put into it. If your players don't care of the GM hasn't set up a good storyline/sequence of events, then you'll get nothing out of it. Crap in, crap out. Again, this isn't a problem unique to Deathwatch.

Manchu wrote:Is the Space Wolf going to complain that he doesn't like the shade of yellow on the Imperial Fist's pauldron? Clearly, you know better than that.

And I fail to see what this has to do with anything and why it only specifically relates to Deathwatch.

Manchu wrote:So in fact Space Marines have a lot more going on between their Lyman's ears than the brainwashing that Mellon was complaining about and that you seemed to declare earlier.

Marines aren't brainwashed. Indoctrinated yes, but not to the point where their humanity and individuality is gone. They're not Servitors.

Manchu wrote:Each marine is an individual. Even amongst their "brothers" inside a Chapter there are tensions that go beyond friendly rivalries. You're right to point out that being from different Chapters will be a big issue. But I don't think it creates the issue so much as magnifies it. The source of the issue is the individuality of each marine, the unique personality. I have no doubt that there are individual Space Wolves and Dark Angels out there who might get on better with one another than anybody in their respective Chapters. Hell, there's a good argument that marines from different Chapters are more likely to get along as the number from each present declines. The individual Dark Angel will be, as you said, forced to see past the surface differences by getting to know the individual Space Wolf. So my SW might get along famously with your UM Captain even though he has some pretty negative opinions about UMs in general because that particular captain, based on his unique personality quirks (and the likelihood that my Wolf is misinformed or unreasonably prejudiced), is not like what he thinks all the other UMs are like.

You say that like it's a bad thing? So the characters two people create, despite being different types of people, turn out to work really well together. And? So? Is this something we should be avoiding?

And, again, how is this at all unique or native only to Deathwatch.

We seem to be talking past each other. This thread obviously isn't about finding faults with a particular game that hasn't been released yet. Rather in anticipation of that game, the thread is about what I think is a legitimate concern about RPing Space Marines.

Specifically, my points about intra-party conflict are not (and can't be--I'm so confused by your response in this regard) a critique specific to Deathwatch. I'm talking about trying to RP a Space Marine. If all Space Marines are so thoroughly indoctrinated (agreed) then the question concerning how the party works together becomes trying to sort how my indoctrination differs from yours. So I'm the SW who is really superstitious about psykers and you're the BT that dogmatically hates them. We both might argue it up with the BA librarian but in the midst of that argument find ourselves disagreeing more and more until it becomes a conflict between us, maybe with me now on the BA's side. This is cool enough but it's obviously very limited. There are only so many Chapter-specific stereotypes to rely upon. You playing a BT have a good idea about how your BT feels about psykers but what does he think about Blood Claws? That's less defined. You don't have a knee-jerk reaction to that one prepared for you in the GW fluff. At best, you might want to play your BT as looking down on the SW initation rites in favor of your own Novitiate system. But that's where you're starting to create rather than play to a script.

And that's the part I'm talking about rather than just group dynamics. In order to play a group in an interesting manner you need interesting individuals. Before we can get to working well together as a squad, the Marine that I play needs to be a pretty well fleshed out character. So, let's move on with the BT example. You have a solid understanding of how your BT is expected to think of psykers, can make creative inferences about his opinions regarding unit organization, but what does he think about his own person? If all you can come up with is a dogged loyalty to the Emperor then we have a potential problem. Because what if instead of playing a SW, I'm also playing a BT. If Marines are at the core non-individual in any meaningful way then our character are only going to be different insomuch as we have slightly different stats depending on our crunchy development. But our fluffy development is going to be basically the same or at last similar enough to make us pretty well indistinguishable when it comes to social interactions . . . and that gets us back to Mellon's point. Is playing a Space Marine, whether in Death Watch, GURPS, or some other system, going to be all about the fight and not about the personality because Space Marines really don't have complex personalities in the first place? And, if not, what kind of things make up the individuality of an individual Space Marine?

Let me just cherry-pick one specific point out of all this...

Manchu wrote:If all you can come up with is a dogged loyalty to the Emperor then we have a potential problem.

And therein likes the heart of the matter, in that bolded part.

If all you can come up with is that, then... that's your own problem. I don't see this as a central problem to Deathwatch or even the broader concept of RP'ing a Marine. Anyone, at all, who can only come up with a singular 1 dimensional character will have problems in an RPG. The fact that it's a Marine has little to do with it. There is enough out there to show Marines are more than just 1-dimensional ideologies and caricatures. Yes, they certainly have been represented that way in a number of cases, but those examples to not represent the whole, or a trend even, in the way that Marines are portrayed in the fluff.

Let's look back into some of the very old 40K fluff, specifically the character of Lexandro D'Arquebus, a Scout, later a Marine and later a Captain of the Imperial Fists Chapter. The guy got a whole book to himself. Unsurprisingly, the book was called Space Marine. It was about a ganger on Necromunda being taken by the Imperial Fists and his journey from human to super-human. Now, it had a lot of outdated concepts (Space Slaan, for one) but the central concepts of the Marines (from the organs and zygotes, to the training and indoctrination) have remained fairly consistent since then. In fact the 'Pain Glove' mentioned quite early on in the book is still part of the Imperial Fist fluff.

Now, what's more interesting is actually not what's inside that book. It's what's in the second Inquisitor book, when Lexandro (essentially) becomes part of an Inquisitor's Retinue. Part way through their journey through the Eldar webway, Lexandro is forced/chooses to (the details escape me) to abandon his armour. As he does this, he bellows a challenge to anyone that can hear him that he is Lexandro D'Arquebus of Necromunda. Not only does he remember his heritage, but he is proud of it. He knows who he is as a person, not just what his role is within his Chapter and to the Imperium. He is more than his training, more than his indoctrination, and more than his equipment - he is a person no deeper nor shallower than any other.

To put it another way - as long as the player playing the Marine is capable of seeing beyond "HURR!", then I see no issue with RP'ing a Marine.

I don't mind the cherry-picking but let me just explain what I was responding to here.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Let me just cherry-pick one specific point out of all this...

Manchu wrote:If all you can come up with is a dogged loyalty to the Emperor then we have a potential problem.

And therein likes the heart of the matter, in that bolded part. If all you can come up with is that, then... that's your own problem.

The part that you've pulled out is specifically referencing this:

H.B.M.C. wrote:They are warriors who exist to destroy the enemies of the Emperor. Anything that doesn't go towards furthering that goal has no significance for them.

So the pronoun "you" was not the abstract second person plural but rather referred specifically to you, H.B.M.C., given that you were taking this "clinical" approach to the emotional range of Space Marines that I saw as being the very foundation for Mellon's initial point. It seemed and still seems to me that you were validating in that statement the idea that Space Marines are one-dimensional.

Now moving on to your IF example. Let's set aside the unanswerable issue of how 40k canon might work for a moment and say that Lexandro's experience as it stands is correct. An IF Space Marine knows who he was before he became a Space Marine. He remembers friends and family and enemies from before his initiation and so those memories affect who he is a person. If this is the case, then you're right to argue that playing a Space Marine from the IF Chapter shouldn't be too much different than playing any sort of character in any sort of RPG. But, whatever the current "canonicity" of Lexandro's story, we have the contrasting example of the Dark Angels. Gav Thorpe writes that none of them have memories of who they were before joining. That gets you right back to the problem that I tried to lay out or rather paraphrase from Mellon. And here's some specific examples of how I would overcome his concerns.

- Your character has no relationships outside of his Chapter.

- There are only two dimensions of any given relationship between Space Marines, rank and affinity. In terms of rank, there are three possible types of relationship within any given Chapter: superior to inferior rank, vice versa, and peer. In terms of affinity, there are only another three types: affection, indifference, and animosity. SO we have a total of nine possible relationships with which to craft backstory.

- I admit that these nine possible relationships are archetypal and skeletal. But they're just tools; they require that meat be put on the bones. So let's take an example: My SW has a background involving animosity with a peer. Well, that statement doesn't reveal anything at all about the character. So I need to do a little more work. What is the character of the animosity/degree of hostility? Is it a serious rivalry or a deep hatred? Where did this rivalry or hatred come from? Is it resolved or ongoing? Based on a single event or on a series of encounters? All of these questions and the many others that could be asked should get me into thinking about the dynamics of my Chapter organization and how SW come up through the ranks--looks like if I'm serious, I'll need to do some research. After all, only a limited range of conflicts would be possible (or even tolerated) inside of any Space Marine Chapter, although the types and degrees of conflicts vary widely between the Chapters.

- Alright so I take three of my nine possible relationships, flesh them out along the lines just discussed, thread them together to create continuity and maybe even twists and turns in my backstory. I end up with a pretty complete character--even without having familial or romantic relationships--as long as I can assume that my Space Marine is NOT burdened with a narrow, oversimplifying condition like "They are warriors who exist to destroy the enemies of the Emperor. Anything that doesn't go towards furthering that goal has no significance for them."

This might seem a little nitpicky (cherry pick for cherry pick) but let's bring it back to the subject of love. Why can't my SW feel pangs of romantic longing? Let's say I want to take a cue from "Love Can Bloom" and my SW gets a fleeting glance at beautiful Eldar Farseer. Maybe in his emotional confusion (I've never heard what kind of training or indoctrination prepares Space Marines to deal with the emotional facets of physical attraction) he even hesitates to murder her so that your Space Marine has to step in and finish the job. I see this as creating both (1) a source of rich internal tension for the development of the my character's personality and worldview and (2) an opportunity for your Marine and my Marine to interact in a way other than chest-bumping while shouting "FOR THE EMPEROR!" (Not saying there are to be no such displays at all, on the other hand.) If you're playing an insightful, empathetic sort of Marine I bet it would whet your curiosity to see my Wolf hesitate to take the Xenos witch down. If you're playing the "my mind is an iron fortress" type fanatic, this would naturally stoke your suspicion. The fact that we're Deathwatch just heightens the tension of either situation.

So maybe you don't want to play Marines so complicated. Maybe you don't want to devote this kind of attention to any RPG. That's cool and so none of this matters at all. Starightfoward killing machines will be enough to slake your RPG thirst. But that's not addressing Mellon's point. He doesn't just want a stats sheet with some to no personality. In fact, what he wants (if I understand him correctly but in any case what I want) is a game experience where the personality and relationships are at least as important as the stats. To be honest, I don't think that you and I disagree that this is possible when playing Space Marines. My earlier responses to your posts were premised on your statement that Marines were basically "x," what seemed to my mind a generic and severely limited characteristic that corresponded exactly to Mellon's depiction of the one-dimensional Marine who might just as well be only whatever weapon he happens to use rather than a character that participates in a story with other characters. Also, I'm still confused as to why you're responding to me with "this is not a weakness of Deathwatch" type statements.

. So, let's move on with the BT example. You have a solid understanding of how your BT is expected to think of psykers, can make creative inferences about his opinions regarding unit organization, but what does he think about his own person? If all you can come up with is a dogged loyalty to the Emperor then we have a potential problem.

Maybe... lets' say.. part of the character generation process might include possible backgroudn details that might have influenced the marines development and/or eventual deployment with the Deathwatch.

You'll note that in RT there's a "flow chart" type affair that fleshes how the hows and whys of how a character got to where they are now.

Yeah, I think it might almost certainly be the case. Playing DH or RT requires a commitment to a specific setting that mainstream RPGers (i.e., coming from D&D) will not be used to dealing with. FFG doesn't want to narrow down its customer base to people who already love 40k. They want to pull off a THQ-style widening of interest in the Grimdark. So they have provided that chart in particular and these beautiful, high quality source books in general to facilitate the novice's falling for the setting.

That said, you can see how such a strategy doesn't really translate into a character like Mellon wants. (Granted, it's better than the paragraph-long prompts in D&D4E.) The extent to how much Deathwatch will be able to do in fleshing out Chapter-specific customs, organization, etc, is purely speculative at this point. Again, the point of the thread is not to preemptively praise or critique this game that won't be published until summer. We're just talking about creating well-rounded Space Marine character without reference to any specific mechanic.

Manchu - On the subject of love - or any physical pleasure...you seem to think that Marines would not be told what to do with a lustful/carnal thought. That's just not true.

Space Marines would reject those things on a spiritual level and would be trained to do so - such things lead to Chaos, and since the heresy, no Marine would DARE indulge in such out of place thoughts, not for long. Lust (along the lines of seeing a sexy elf or even a normal human woman) might happen, but the Marine would be immediately upset with himself for feeling that way. He would not indulge it, he would not be so captivated by said sexy person that he would do something weird like leave his squad to chat her up. He would be more likely to feel disgusted with himself, and chastise himself later - even a Space Wolf would probably be disturbed by the sensation of lust - it would not only be foreign, but he would have been indoctrinated to know that lust and indulgences are part of Chaos' grip. (Yes, that Slaanesh's portfolio, but they are likewise warned against rage/blood lust.) These are things every human must deal with - and Marines would be HEAVILY cautioned against letting such things EVER effect them - letting Chaos get a grip is dangerous to the whole chapter!

I do not wish to over generalize, but if you were raised in a Christian house (you may not have been) but the idea of guilting yourself out of a sin or to reject it by putting it in front of yourself as something to be reviled is common. This is how I view the Space Marines when they deal with potentially corrupting influences.

A Marine who might feel a pang of lust would be trained to take that object of lust and to decide that it is disgusting. He would pray this desire away.

Now Marines do not have a lot of free time - they train, pray, eat and sleep when they're not fighting - so they aren't idle enough to let an object of lust eat away at them - they'd be so distracted with work.

The second it became a distraction from their work, they'd be lucky if they weren't hauled before a captain and put down for possible contaminator and their geneseed destroyed just in case.

Ultimately, though, he is a soldier and has rules to follow that rebelling against would have him slaughtered - and forgetting that in the heat of the moment in order to pursue self-fulfillment in your character is the wrong path. I say self-fulfillment, because oftentimes a writer/roleplayer can get caught up in the moment and go ahead with actions that their character would normally not do - and falling in love/lust would be one of those things when you're talking about Space Marines. It's not that they can't - it's that they would be risking Chaos (big C) if they did.

***

Now this isn't to say that I 100% reject the possibility of a Space Marine possibly falling in love - but it would come out of a long relationship and a long period of mutual respect (not becoming obsessed about some chick on the street). But it would be unrequited largely due to the difference between normal humans and Marines. (And no. Not an Eldar. Holy Crap, please don't tell me you think you'd get away with THAT!)

As for just having a personality, it seems to me that the process of turning a human into a Space Marine (even for DA who end up with no prior memories) does not remove their intelligence, let alone their personality (amnesiacs would be upset to discover that people think they have no personality!). And having known REAL Marines even if the training does tend to effect their responses (the two guys I know can be very frank at times), they can still be funny, creative, and personable - and they're basically put through the same amounts of training and 'brainwashing'. Same with religious aesthetics - I went to Bible College for a year and trust me, even the most 'hidebound' of them still had different ideas and thoughts and expressed themselves in different ways. Many personalities come to these organizations generally to improve themselves and 'help others', are forged through a process, but even though they're bound by honor and training to follow said rules, they still retain who they are.

On that level I agree with you - Space Marines by right may be any sort of person, but they will follow the rules most of the time. If they did wish to rebel for whatever reason, they'd largely be hampered by being too closely watched at all times (and being so darn busy!).

Since the majority (All?) of Marines do NOT believe that the Emperor is a God, just the perfect Man, who in fact are Marines praying to?

Are they, in fact, 'just' meditating?

Something else?

Wow, I'm away from the forums for two days and this wonderful reading awaits me on my return. Thanks!

H.B.M.C. and Manchu, your discussion have given me good food for thought. I think I am going to grab Deathwatch and try to play a campaign that is centered around finding and experiencing the cracs in the SM polish. I'll find some players who are also well experienced in the 40k universe and with the SM fluff. The plan is that heavy action segments will be fuel and food for the conflicts that drive wedges in between the popular image of what a SM is, and what a SM actually is. I'll let the RL attitude of a fourteen years old SM-fanboy be mirrored in the general imperial populace attitude towards the marines. This will be fueled by imperial propaganda. Then I'll let our story contrast that image by focusing on the conflicts, the questionable, the inhumane, the less heroic etc etc. Then a good dose of identity crisis stemming from the dissapointment that will be vsisble to a Deathwatchmarine due to having much more contact with imperial citicens than a chapter based marine have.

A special cookie goes to SilverLynx. I'm a practising christian myself and the storyteller in me really loves all the interesting conflicts that appear when a christians goals and self-image conflicts with her/his practical life. To do the marine comparision: The interesting point is the conflict in a marine when his training tells him "No, that is a bad feeling" about a feeling that the marine considered quite enjoyable. Compare to the ever so popular vampire novels/moveis/RPGs, where a standard theme is the struggle between a socially approved behaviour and the feral beast that is the vampires "nature". I also spend a lot of my time arguing different christian beliefs with people that I none the less respect as christians, despite our _very_ different views on the religion and what practical effects it should have on our lives. I can really see similar arguments arising among SMes who belong to different cultures of Emperor worship.

Alpharius: Budda is not a god(per se...). none of the Catholic Saints are. The entire Shinto religion (as far as I've understood it, wich is not a great deal...) is entirely devoid of deities. Many religions and indeed many believers within otherwise "officially specified" religions are very clear over the fact that their G/god(s) are "only" metaphores and not litteral beings. Still people pray to guides/wise people/ancestors/the essence of reproduction/that funnily formed rock/the wheel on the roulette table/the memory of someone/etc and feel helped by those prayers. Imagine something like: "Emperor, mightiest and most insightful. Let my decisions be in the image of your wisdom. Let my steadfastness be in the image of your courage. Let my strength be in the image of your might." But in almost-latin.

Mellon - good point!

I'd love to see how you and Manchu would run a campaign, but I don't think any of us is anywhere near the other!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Plus, see HERE:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/268868.page#1387047

for some interesting ideas on role playing Marines...

"In other words you think we are only good for battle? Is that it? The Astartes are simply weapons, killing tools who cannot have interests beyond war?"
--Ahzek Ahriman, A Thousand Sons

I just thought that was an appropriate quote for this thread. The context is that Ahriman had an interest in viticulture (among many other topics unrelated to battle).

Setting aside for a moment the difference between praying to God and praying with the saints (Catholic here) or the differences between Judeo-Christian and non-Judeo-Christian meanings of prayer, the fact remains that when people pray it is generally an act of communication. The person who prays addresses some being that is thought to hear and perhaps even be able to respond. I can't think of any specific examples of Marines literally praying but it has always been clear if also exceedingly vague that the Marines engage in some sort of pseudo-religion. They have chaplains after all who are not merely morale officers but are always talked about as the curators of the Chapters' traditions, relics, and rites. That's pretty overtly religious. These Space Marine "religions" could be cults for venerating the war dead, similar to the Japanese practice. I'm also not familiar with Shinto so I have no idea if the Japanese believe in the reality of the spirits of their war dead or are more concerned with the memory and tradition that inheres in a metaphorical "spirit." In any case, even a purely metaphorical religious rhetoric lends itself to being taken literally. (Look at the way that some modern day Christians cleave to literalistic interpretations of Genesis, for example.) This would especially be the case for the Space Marines. After all, the language of the Great Crusade declared belief in gods to be irrational superstition. After all, why believe in a being that does not exist in the tangible world? (But we also know that it is a FACT in 40k that there is an intangible world. In what sense are Nurgle, Khorne, Slaanesh, and Tzeentch NOT gods? If it is arbitrary to call them gods then it is jut as arbitrary to say that they are not gods.) But the Emperor is surely a part of the tangible world. His powers and accomplishments sure seem deity-like. Marines (other than the Word Bearers) never seemed comfortable explicitly saying that he was a god but it's not clear that there is much difference, outside of the mere use of that word, between the attitude of cult fanatics toward their deities and the attitude of Space Marines to the Emperor.

This question will be very important to RPing a Marine, especially in Deathwatch where the Marine will have contact with Emperor-worshiping civilians.

Interesting that you quoted a traitor to support your argument.

Deathwatch are selected from a Chapter's veteran Space Marines. Only Marines who are exemplars of the chapter's highest virtues are likely to be allowed to serve outside the Chapter's direct control or influence. Somehow I don't see a Chaplain signing off on letting "troubled young lads" go off to serve with the Deathwatch.

From the Chapter's point of view, to give in to personal desires is to abandon service to the Emperor and open the door to Chaos. Remember, Space Marines are supposed to sacrifice their humanity to serve the Emperor completely.

Remember, Space Marines are supposed to sacrifice their humanity to serve the Emperor completely.

Since... when?

And where have they done that? I certainly haven't seen it.

Breotan wrote:Interesting that you quoted a traitor to support your argument.

He wasn't a traitor when he said it!

And, you have read A THOUSAND SONS already, right?

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Remember, Space Marines are supposed to sacrifice their humanity to serve the Emperor completely.

Since... when?

And where have they done that? I certainly haven't seen it.

Since the Great crusade, it's often mentioned in the fluff about the various implants making Marines more than human and less than human at the same time. I think it's a fascinating dichotomy and no more an impediment to roleplaying than, say, a Vulcan character in a Star Trek RPG would be. Space Marines (along with Vampires, Vulcans, Elves and various other races in various other games) are not human so they don't interact as a human would, that sacrifices elements of their humanity as a default. Anyhow, this is a fascinating thread and I don't want to de-rail it too badly, so I'll shut up and let you and Manchu hash out the difficulties inherent in RPing an alien mindset.

There are emotions that marines feel they are just not the same as normal human ones. Marines feel loyalty, envy, they can get very competitive and all these can lead to some interesting situations. The difference is that althought marines can feel love (they are very close to other squad members) all the drug treatment and hormone changes have made it very hard for them to understand emotions not linked to war.

We can see from some of the more unusual chapter, E.g. BAs and SWs, that they do feel things. SWs for example are known for being very inspirational leaders and caring for the normal guys. I think SMs are just harder to understand. From the perspective of a human looking in they are dull, mindless killers. But the way they interact with each other is entirely different. If you want to see what a space marine is really like you need spend lots of time in close contact with them, and for best results fight along side them. If you want to give them more personality you should probably choose a chapter that isn't so seperate from humans. A custom chapter is probably best. Even if you choose a normal SM without any particularly outstanding human traits, it is still possible to engage with them. They appear to be shallow but they are just distant, they don't see things the same way we do.

You just need to use conversations about things the marine can relate to, so war.