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So, my opponent in my last game had Iron Hands being led by a Count As Captain Lysander. This was cool by me but I heard at least one person making a comment along the lines, 'If he wants to play Imperial Fists he should play Imperial Fists' which seemed a bit...off to me. It wasn't as though the new Codex was chock full of Iron Hand characters for a start, but surely as long as it's in the rules and isn't raw cheese no one should have a massive issue with it. I mean, in the same battle I was using Belial for a Deathwing Army, but my chapter is a successor one from Dark Angels, the Guardians of the Covenant, and no one batted an eye lid.

Essentially, I don't see why having one colour of paints on your models instead of another is reason for people to act like muppets. Am I missing something or was that guy being a prick?

If people complain show them in the book that counts as is allowed and they can stuff there blue forge father or white Shrike ect.

Of course "counts as" SCs are allowed!

Yeah but people whine and complain about it all the time. In any tournament you will get your comp score docked for doing that. I personally think such sentiments are incredibly stupid, but obviously I am not as much as purist as others...

Counts as models or armies are often way cooler than the original I would just tell that guy to stuff it.

Jon Garrett wrote:Essentially, I don't see why having one colour of paints on your models instead of another is reason for people to act like muppets. Am I missing something or was that guy being a prick?

I don't think you're missing anything at all.

I hate that, it says it in the rules too.
We are allowed to do that.
I brought in my Count as Shrike and people got pissed because they said you need the atucal model, but it looks and plays the same, and plus its my own version of shrike, then their is my vulkan conversion which people didn't like because it looked too simple, which it wasn't. Well thats just a fact of life, people from dakka dakka are so much smarter than people from anywhere else.

i have a counts as kharn the betrayer and nobody's told me i cant use it yet. if they did i wouldn't play them.

If your model is WYSIWYG you can call it whatever you want.

Some people are just lame, that's all.

Monster Rain wrote:If your model is WYSIWYG you can call it whatever you want.

Some people are just lame, that's all.

WYSIWYG or you go out of your way to make an incredible representative model and a bit of a backstory for why your homebrewed character is on par with a legendary character of renown.

Most of the time I think it is alright as a lot of the special characters models can a bit expensive or just plain.

However I can see the point that those people are making. It isn't really the "count as" that seems to be the issue. It is more about how the Space Marine special characters alter the special rules for the entire army (bring back the trait system!) to run like a certain chapter sicne the entire replacement of Combat Tactics and the such. If I see Lysander I expect to see Imperial Fists, if I see Vulkan I expect to see Salamanders, etc etc. Game play wise it is perfectly fine, but towards more fluff minded people it can be a bit "insulting". Successor chapters are a different story since they mostly still use the same design as their parent chapter and usually still heavily work with them. Hence why I think they might of been ok with your deathwing before. I think they might be seeing it as only wanting the benefits of being Imperial Fists (aka Stubborn) and saying screw the rest of the stuff.

I wouldn't walk in the next time you play and shove it into everyone's face that it is perfectly by the rules, that isn't what I think they are upset at and would just make things worse. Justifying it fluff-wise is the harder path but I think that is their problem with it. Just my opinion on the matter through, surprised no one said the same thing I did yet through...

The only reason why i do it is to stick true to my fluff. Because their are suppose to be 12 vulkan like guys in my chapter.

Kanluwen wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:If your model is WYSIWYG you can call it whatever you want.

Some people are just lame, that's all.

WYSIWYG or you go out of your way to make an incredible representative model and a bit of a backstory for why your homebrewed character is on par with a legendary character of renown.

That's exactly what my "counts as" Vulkan is!

Chapter Master Yadon Napthal of the Hands of Vengeance Chapter. He will totally own your face!

I tolerate no crying about "counts as" characters. If it's legal, play it.

Monster Rain wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:If your model is WYSIWYG you can call it whatever you want.

Some people are just lame, that's all.

WYSIWYG or you go out of your way to make an incredible representative model and a bit of a backstory for why your homebrewed character is on par with a legendary character of renown.

That's exactly what my "counts as" Vulkan is!

Chapter Master Yadon Napthal of the Hands of Vengeance Chapter. He will totally own your face!

I tolerate no crying about "counts as" characters. If it's legal, play it.

I'm on the fence about the whole counts as thing. I can understand that yes, the character might fit your Chapter's background. I can even understand that you want a might hero ala one already in existence.

What I can't understand is why one would halfass it, buy the model and just slap different colored paint on it then call it done.

If anyone has a problem with "counts as" characters, just direct them to page 127 of C:SM where it says, "Alternatively, you can use the model and rules for a named character to represent a mighty hero of a different Chapter - for example, using the rules and model for Marneus Calgar as the Chapter Master of the Imperial Fists, or a Space Marine Chapter of your own design - you just need to come up with a new name."

If you use a different model, make sure it's wysiwyg with the character rules/loadout and stands out from other models. In other words, if you're gonna make a "counts as" Shrike, make spiffier somehow than just an Assault Marine with twin lightning claws. People should know immediately when there's a character in your army and where he is on the table.

I have a counts-as Chenkov in my Imperial Guard that I made from one of the command squad boxes, simply because he'd fit in better. As long as they have the same equipment, I see no reason to complain.

Kanluwen wrote:
What I can't understand is why one would halfass it, buy the model and just slap different colored paint on it then call it done.

Maybe for a successor Chapter?

You know, use the Lysander model for an Imperial Fists successor that uses the same Iconography but different color schemes?

I'm not a huge fan, although Games Workshop seems pretty enamoured with the idea.

I'm a sucker for neat conversions at any rate, though.

Monster Rain wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
What I can't understand is why one would halfass it, buy the model and just slap different colored paint on it then call it done.

Maybe for a successor Chapter?

You know, use the Lysander model for an Imperial Fists successor that uses the same Iconography but different color schemes?

See, that one I'm a bit wary of. Because at the very least convert the damn weapon (there is only one Dorn's Fist after all) or use a helmeted head!

I'm working on a Creed/Kell stand-in to go with my army and man. It's been the most fun I've had in ages!

Some people don't like converting.

If they want to do "Counts as" more power to them.

To clarify, the gentleman was using Lysander's model, but he had modified the Thunderhammer somewhat and modified all the Iconography to be more Ironhands that Fists, although he did admit part of the reason he chose Lysander was the number of big gauntlet looking hands on the model. It saved him some effort.

I know a friend that hates the captin shrike model (he plays raven guard) and has made his own model which i think looks better, every1 at my FLGS has no problem with it, heck he even put a banner with SHRIKE written on it when he went to a tourny. The TO found it hilarious and you can really miss a banner 3inchs by 2inchs!

I don't have a problem with it personally. As long as it's wysiwyg then I don't see the problem. It just adds to people making the game their own which is cool with me.

'Counts As' is fine except if mixing across codexes.

Even then I think it's okay in friendly games, depending on the scenario and balancing factors.

I really don't see a problem with "count as" models. I think its important to understand that a "count as" Captain Shrike, or Sergeant Telion from a chapter other than that for which they were written is not necessarily that actual character, but one who has the same rules and benefits. It is not much of a stretch that of the many marines that make up the numerous chapters within the imperium, there could be similar special characters who perform similar roles.

Most importantly, I am much more impressed by someone who took the time and effort to modify an existing model to fit the SC, than just going out to buy the overpriced metal mini.

I think that if you are playing with the SM Codex its fine to mix and match. I use Sgt. Telion for my Dark Angels army, but then, I do not use the DA codex, if I did I would take Sgt. Naaman, and only use the rules in my army's codex.

My group could care less about count ass models. One of our players made his Broodlord, Zoanthrope, Plauge Father, Scorer, Choas Dred and my Ezikial. Problem is, I don't know how the tourney I'm going to will take my stand in Belial(SP?) For my DW.

Usually when I see a "Counts As" model, it's nothing like the original. With most other armies, like Imperial Guard or Orks, the character's association is ambiguous at best (with Imperial Guard, where any commander may find themselves commanding a totally different unit, or detached out to another regiment, and Orks.... well Orks will do pretty much as they please as long as a good fight is involved as soon as possible). But with Space Marines... well the Special Characters, to me, seem to have heavy Chapter association. So yeah, when I see Lysander commanding Black Templars I think "why don't they just play the army he comes with?" It's a fouling of the fluff so that a player can still get their cake that I don't appreciate and if I were a scorer I would dock points too.

Now, in the case of making a replacement model, I'm completely fine with it as long as it isn't just a standard model with the generic additional weapons attached. For instance, I am making a Straken model for my Steel Legion force. I started with a normal SL Sergeant, chopped off his sword and made a custom shotgun, am using a Cadian Power Fist for his bionic arm clutching a Plasma Pistol, green stuffing in a bionic eye, and will be adding other bits to suggest he is the Man of Admantium. What I have also seen is people taking a normal Catachan Sergeant, slapping a Space Marine bolter on, Catachan Power Fist, and calling it a day.

If you look in the SM 5th ed codex, right on the 1st page of the "Stats" section, right after the colored pictures, it says that you can do just that. check for yourself.

micahaphone wrote:If you look in the SM 5th ed codex, right on the 1st page of the "Stats" section, right after the colored pictures, it says that you can do just that. check for yourself.

You could have simply said it's on p.127 as I did in my post, above.