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I realy inquire what is best mashine for CSM. Defiler is not an option becose i dislike model. So there are only Vindicator, Land Raider and Predator. Vindicator is nice 'cose it can deal with infantry and vechicles. LR can do anything without payload. Predator is good, but for it price it can't do much. What do you think, guys?

if the defiler is not a choice, I would say the land raider. It's cheaper than a normal space marine land raider, even with demonic possession.

The predator puts out the most heavy weapons for the least amount of points in the codex, by far. It's also static and easy to kill. Your mileage will vary for sure.

If you don't like the defiler model, you can use the soulgrinder one. I don't know if you might like that one better.

scuddman wrote:if the defiler is not a choice, I would say the land raider. It's cheaper than a normal space marine land raider, even with demonic possession.

The predator puts out the most heavy weapons for the least amount of points in the codex, by far. It's also static and easy to kill. Your mileage will vary for sure.

If you don't like the defiler model, you can use the soulgrinder one. I don't know if you might like that one better.

As i told, LR is good choise, but it can not do anything without payload. I use unit of chosen with some close combat weapons, but i prefer to use them as outflanking force instead of pure assault force in LR.

It's okay to have a chaos landraider without a payload.
In that case, it's a dedicated static tank. It's main job is to sit in the back and shoot. In kill point missions, it acts like a safe zone for injured squads if you do squad rotations. In objectives, you sit a small scoring unit inside and leave it on the objective.

Uhh, how are predators easy to kill?

Anyways, definitely the predator tank. Lots of shots, cheap and a pain in the ass to kill.

Night Lords wrote:Uhh, how are predators easy to kill?

Anyways, definitely the predator tank. Lots of shots, cheap and a pain in the ass to kill.

Weak side armor and if you want to fire all those guns you paid for you'll need to be sitting still.

Just to add to everyone saying different things. It is simple the Vindicator because of Deamon Possession hands down.

eNvY wrote:

Night Lords wrote:Uhh, how are predators easy to kill?

Anyways, definitely the predator tank. Lots of shots, cheap and a pain in the ass to kill.

Weak side armor and if you want to fire all those guns you paid for you'll need to be sitting still.

Hitting side armour is much easier said than done when the predator is on your opponents table edge. Unless you have droppodders/termicide/outflankers coming down - in which case any thing would die anyways - youre going to be hitting the front. I highly doubt that a half decent CSM player wouldnt assault you after youve been moving up for atleast 3 turns to get into that position.

As for being static, this was a problem until 5th edition. In 5th with TLOS, it is ridiculously easy to hit almost everything on the board at any time. I rarely ever move my predator tanks (rotating doesnt count as moving), and I play with far more terrain than a typical game.

My experiences with the Predator mirror Night Lord's. I'd have to say the Predator is the best of the three.

Predator for me to. I field two in my 1500 list along with a Raider with a cargo. I hardly have to move them and even if i do i still get two shots from my autocannon. I find side las sponsoons and autocannon turret works best.

Pred is best of the three as a gun platform. That said, why not just use oblits?

I believe that the best tank, right now for CSM is the Vindicator. Even thought is only has a 24' range, but it make it up with its firepower. I do hope in the next Codex we will have a new one.

Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:Pred is best of the three as a gun platform. That said, why not just use oblits?

More durable, more armour target saturation, more shots per turn, etc.

You guys are crazy, the best tank for CSM is the rhino.
Troops win you games, rhinos get your troops there.
By association the rhino = win.

I guess I wouldn't really by much help here, but I usually go with Defilers (Fairly cheap, with a good arsenal standard).
However, I find the models ugly-as-sin as well, so both mine are Soul Grinders.

Other than that, though, I have a Vidicator and two Land Raiders.
I've never seen Predators do much, so I have yet to be compelled to get one.

What is in the rest of your army Kugel? If you have lots of assault troops and mid-range stuff, then predators are your friends. They let you reach out and touch the enemy in his deployment zone, and whether you are pouring out HB/AC bullet storms, or popping tanks with your LCs he isn't going to like it. That means that he has a target that he needs to kill, which in turn means that your assault/mid-range guys make it up the table. Land raiders are also a good choice in an army like this because they can move your troops up the tableand kill enemy tanks.

If you like your CSMs to sit back with heavy weapons and Havoc squads to keep slapping him with your favorite heavy weapons, then you want the Vindicators. Preferably possessed. That way when they come running up to kill your stationary squads, you can squish them with your DC templates. The same logic above applies here as well, in order to close without getting squished, they must kill the Vindicators, and if they don't, hit 'em with a beatstick.

Those are really the only two tanks you seem to want to use. Personally, I think that if you aren't using a Land Raider to get your CC units into punching range then you are wasting your Land Raider. If you want something that shoots Lascannons, get a Predator or a Havoc Squad. They get more cannons for less points. Not liking the model for the Defiler is a great reason to leave them out of the army, just be aware the flexibility that it looses you, and compensate accordingly.

If you don't like most of the tanks, and are having trouble working them into your army, why not try something else? Fill your army with Bikes and Raptors and Lesser Daemons and stuff your opponent's deployment zone with your guys on turn 2. Lots of troops with a pair of DPs and Oblits seems to be popular. Tanks are not required (Except for rhinos) and you should always choose units based on how much you like to play them, rather than popular opinion. You payed money for your manz, you put the time into painting them, you get to decide what you put on the table.

Seriously:
There is no best. They all have their pros and more importantly their cons.

-Preds: expensive, static, but role-oriented.
-Vindi: democannon yay, wide side armor and range.
-Defiler: long range BC yay/combatty, big low AV that has me WS and I for combat.
-LR: cheap, but you get what you pay for and it's not much

Hence my suggestion for the rhino...cheap, numerous, gets the killy squads there to kill, cheap and numerous to be throw away units/contester/tank shocker...etc.

Best is the Rhino. It moves your troops around wonderfully. Stick with oblits for your heavy support.

Personally I'm fond of multiple vindicators as heavy support. One vindicator is solid, but 2 or 3 let you just hammer several units out of existence each turn and can protect each others' side armor.

Remember that if you take a Predator, Vindicator, or Defiler, you can still take a Land Raider as a dedicated transport. Or you can take six Land Raiders in a single list, points permitting. Either/or. I like Land Raiders.

Sanctjud wrote:Seriously:
There is no best. They all have their pros and more importantly their cons.

-Preds: expensive, static, but role-oriented.
-Vindi: democannon yay, wide side armor and range.
-Defiler: long range BC yay/combatty, big low AV that has me WS and I for combat.
-LR: cheap, but you get what you pay for and it's not much

Hence my suggestion for the rhino...cheap, numerous, gets the killy squads there to kill, cheap and numerous to be throw away units/contester/tank shocker...etc.

How is the predator expensive and the LR cheap?

Compared to their loyalist cousins, sure, but the predator is the cheapest way to get long range firepower into a chaos list point-for-point.

Sorry for not being clear.

Preds: I had meant what you just said. And I agree with the second part if it's the AC/LC we are talking about .

As for LR: It's 'cheap(er)' <---forgot the 'er'.

I standby my vote for Rhino as the winner.

Also, the chaos LR does not have PotMS, or useful (for it's assault-boat role) weapon systems. The chaos LR is truly horrible.

I found vindis to work the best for me. Good anit tank as well as being able to deal with other things quite well. 2+ armor and hordes. Having 2 or 3 is best as one just doesnt seem to cut it. And getting that first turn volly from all of them seems key as well as alot of the time that first found of shooting is all you need.

I agree...that's why in my poster there I said:

but you get what you pay for and it's not much

I try to cover my bases sometimes

Groslon wrote:What is in the rest of your army Kugel?

Now i use lash sorc with wings, 3 rhino full of melta marines, Greater Demon (summoned), 2 units of lesser demons, chosen 2 meltas and 2 pairs of LC, 3 oblits and 2 possessed vindicators.
I just find, that i can't deal with multi enemy armour at range, since oblits are enemy target priority. So i think to drop 1 vind for something else.

Kugel wrote:
I just find, that i can't deal with multi enemy armour at range

You're playing CSM, so this is a bit of a "duh"

I'd vote Vindi- if i were to draw up a take-all-comers list, then the Vindi is the most likely tank of choice for me- Rhino's are a transport so don't fit the bill of tank imo (but i agree with Sanctjud, Rhino's #1!), and Landraider ARE horrible compared to vanilla SM ones, and are confused in their role, with a bunch of choppy units inside it, but lascannon sponsons? mixed with a HB? big case of "what the hell am i supposed to be doooiinnnggg!?!?!", which imo makes it more a transport+gunboat, less a actual tank,

Kugel wrote:

Groslon wrote:What is in the rest of your army Kugel?

Now i use lash sorc with wings, 3 rhino full of melta marines, Greater Demon (summoned), 2 units of lesser demons, chosen 2 meltas and 2 pairs of LC, 3 oblits and 2 possessed vindicators.
I just find, that i can't deal with multi enemy armour at range, since oblits are enemy target priority. So i think to drop 1 vind for something else.

I've been having *very* good luck with an AC/LC pred with a havoc launcher. It maintains the all-purpose role of the obliterator, but gets more firepower/point, and is more durable in many situations, though it can't move and shoot at full effect.

If you want to really focus on killing transports at range, I've had amazing luck with the all Lascannon Predator. It can do little except hunt transports and MCs, but if that's all you need done it does it best for the points. I also really like the theory of the AC/LC with a Havoc Launcher, if you want something that retains the ability to engage infantry although I've never seen one played.

Well, some anecdotes from my last couple of games:

Against Eldar, the predator was able to destroy a wave serpent, then level effective fire at the Dire Avengers that disembarked on his back board edge, and was instrumental in killing his two wraithlords as well. Its versatility was not used to the full because most of the time it was shooting "hard" targets, but that havoc launcher did make his dire avengers scared of it, even at 48" away.

Against Tyranids, he had no transports to blow up, but the weapons mix was excellent against units of 3 zoanthropes with a tyranid prime that he was using against me. The havoc launcher adding on a couple of str 5 hits let me kill those units much faster, as I simply forced more saving throws on them from a single unit firing, he was less able to mitigate damage by dumping wounds on the prime. After I was done with those units the havoc launcher was key in keeping the predator dangerous against his hordes of gaunts.