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**Edit #2** I updated the list so now I need to spend 173 points, also as always I am willing to take suggestions for improvement **/Edit 2**


So I usually don't play anything but Dark Eldar so I am not sure if this list will work or not. As you might be able to tell I basicly created a dark eldar list out of Space puppies. Feel free to be harsh in your criticism, I really don't know what I am doing when it comes to the nuances of SM.


The basic Idea is to drop the dreads first turn and kill a tank or flame a squad, after that they are just there to draw fire away from my scoring units or the mass of easy KP (not quite paper airplanes but close). After that the 4 empty razors will shield the 5 full ones and lay down a hail of fire power while advancing (or sitting still when fighting orks or what not). Hopefully the scoring pod shows up turn 4-5, burn the opponent off an objective and weather the storm to win the game for me. Not much in the way of tricks, but I figure its the closest to DE I can play and be competitive.

PLEASE COMMENT.


Thanks,
Chris


2500 Pts - Space Wolves Roster

1 Rune Priest Chooser, Storm caller (or JotW if caller does not work on vehicles), Murderous Hurricane

1 Dreadnought @ Heavy Flamer, Multi-Melta, Drop Pod
1 Dreadnought @ Heavy Flamer, Multi-Melta, Drop Pod
4 man Wolf Guard Pack 4 PF, 4 Combi-flamer, Razorback w/ Las, TL Plasma

10 man Grey Hunters Pack 2 Flamers, 1 MotW, Drop Pod
5 man Grey Hunters Pack 1 Flamer, 1 MotW, Razorback w/ Las, TL Plasma
5 man Grey Hunters Pack 1 Flamer, 1 MotW, Razorback w/ Las, TL Plasma
5 man Grey Hunters Pack 1 Flamer, 1 MotW, Razorback w/ Las, TL Plasma
5 man Grey Hunters Pack 1 Flamer, 1 MotW, Razorback w/ Las, TL Plasma
5 man Grey Hunters Pack 1 Flamer, 1 MotW, Razorback w/ Las, TL Plasma

6 Long Fangs Pack w/ 5 Missile Launchers, Razorback w/ Las, TL plasma
6 Long Fangs Pack w/ 5 Missile Launchers, Razorback w/ Las, TL plasma
6 Long Fangs Pack w/ 5 Missile Launchers, Razorback w/ Las, TL plasma


Total Roster Cost: 2327

*EDIT*
Oh I also own all the models, but the razorbacks don't come with the TL plasma, any ideas (I know the old kit had them, but since I already have all the new kits I am not changing them out.)

Thanks again!

I have a very similar list. I think what you have is a good base, but it has some inefficacies.

Drop podding dreads (especially in 2500) are going to come down, shoot the multimelta once, and then die a horrible horrible death. Venerable isn't going to save you against the amount of melta weaponry you will be dropping right next to.

I really think that in a list like this that has massed light armour, you need to get as many cover saves as you can get, but still try not to block your lanes of fire. The best way to do this is with stormcaller. I would try and get an extra rune priest in there.

While the list already has a nice first round punch, I think its possible to make the first turn shooting all the more devastating. Sometimes when you take one of something, its terrible, but when you take lots, then they become great. You'll see what I mean..

General rule of thumb when it comes to troops and their transports.. Use it! Stay in the tank! Especially when you only have a 5 man squad. So shave off the melta and mark of the wuflen, and use those points elsewhere.

While the long fangs can engage 2 units with their missiles, they are going to be the only things in the army that on are on foot. You need to either a) drop the amount of missiles they have and swap their razorback for a rhino so they can fire out the top, or b) put more units that will be on foot in your list so that the long fangs don't eat every single anti infantry round you opponent has (which is very bad for long fangs because they don't have any ablative wounds at all).

I prefer option B, and would instead go with something like this:

Rune Priest 110
Living Lightning
Storm Caller
Chooser of the Slain

Rune Priest 110
Murderous Hurricane
Storm Caller
Chooser of the Slain

5 Wolf Guard 220
1 w/ Terminator Armour/Cyclone
Razorback
Las/Plas
Hunter Killer Missile

5 Wolf Guard 220
1 w/ Terminator Armour/Cyclone
Razorback
Las/Plas
Hunter Killer Missile

5 Wolf Guard 220
1 w/ Terminator Armour/Cyclone
Razorback
Las/Plas
Hunter Killer Missile

5 Grey Hunters 150
Flamer
Razorback
Las/Plas

5 Grey Hunters 150
Flamer
Razorback
Las/Plas

5 Grey Hunters 150
Flamer
Razorback
Las/Plas

5 Grey Hunters 150
Flamer
Razorback
Las/Plas

5 Grey Hunters 150
Flamer
Razorback
Las/Plas

5 Grey Hunters 150
Flamer
Razorback
Las/Plas

Land Speeder 90

Land Speeder 90

Land Speeder 90

3 Long Fangs 150
2 Missiles
Razorback
Las/Plas
Hunter Killer Missile

3 Long Fangs 150
2 Missiles
Razorback
Las/Plas
Hunter Killer Missile

3 Long Fangs 150
2 Missiles
Razorback
Las/Plas
Hunter Killer Missile


See? A much much bigger alpha strike, you have no melta, but you have way wayyy more rockets, and a lot more targets as well. I know that you're probably worried about land raiders- don't be. If they have double raider then you destroy all of the supporting elements, and just wait for the stuff to pop out, kill one of your units (oh noes, because you don't have more where that came from right? lol) and then shoot them to pieces and ignore the land raider. If they have more then two, then they are investing so much in the amour 14 bunkers that you can just shake/stun/immobilize them and call it a day.

Oh and for the las/plas turrets, I took the twin linked lascannon, kept one intact, and then chopped of the barrel of the lascannon, and just placed two plasma guns there side by side, with a little bit of green stuff to make it look like they had one big plasma coil. Although stacking the plasmas vertically would be cool as well.

Well Chitomps, you have presented quite the interesting 'Ard Boyz list here. It sounds like a pretty solid plan with the large amount of Armor that many are planning on fielding. Just a few suggestions:

1) Where exactly will the Rune Priest be deployed? As cool as Jaws of the World Wolf is, I think there are a few other Psychic Powers that should be chosen before Jaws as a first pick, namely Living Lightning. Having an unlimited range Autocannon never hurt anyone. If you want to use his battle control powers, you need him to either be in a Rhino or deployed with the Long Fangs.

2) As has already been pointed out, your suicide Dreadnoughts will not see much benefit from being Venerable. You can easily use those 120 points for another Rune Priest and tack on some more Psychic Support.

3) The way your list is set up you want to stay at range and slug it out with your opponent as they make their way across the field. Sure Melta is great and all for popping tanks; however, when you have 9 Lascannons and 15 Missile Launchers I think Melta no longer has a place in the force. I would recommend dropping all of the Meltas and switching them to Flamers to take on the hordes that will cause you the most headaches.

4) I would grab another Wolf Guard as a Squad leader and just attach the Rune Priests to the Long Fangs so you can either have dual Living Lightning or something similar.

5) The later grouping of Grey Hunters seem like a good idea so they're a keeper.

Possible Revised List:

H.Q.

Rune Priest
Living Lightning, Tempests Wrath, Chooser of the Slain -110

Rune Pries
Living Lightning, Storm Caller, Chooser of the Slain, Melta Bombs -115

Elites

Dreadnought
Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer, Drop Pod -150

Dreadnought
Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer, Drop Pod -150

Wolf Guard Pack 5x
5x Power Fists, Razorback: Twin Linked Plasma Guns, Lascannon -265

Troops

Grey Hunters 10x
2x Flamer, Mark of the Wulfen, Drop Pod -200

Grey Hunters 5x
Flamer, Mark of the Wulfen -165

Grey Hunters 5x
Flamer, Mark of the Wulfen -165

Grey Hunters 5x
Flamer, Mark of the Wulfen -165

Grey Hunters 5x
Flamer, Mark of the Wulfen -165

Grey Hunters 5x
Flamer, Mark of the Wulfen -165

Heavy Support

Long Fangs 6x
5x Missile Launchers, Razorback: Twin Linked Plasma Guns, Lascannon -215

Long Fangs 6x
5x Missile Launchers, Razorback: Twin Linked Plasma Guns, Lascannon -215

Long Fangs 6x
5x Missile Launchers, Razorback: Twin Linked Plasma Guns, Lascannon -215

Total: 2460

You have MAD shooting ability and you'll be able to handle Hordes when they get in close. I think you'll do fine with something along these lines and would rue getting within 18" of you...

Thanks for all the suggestions!

@ TJ, that list actually has less missiles than mine does. your list has 12, while mine has 15. Also I feel that losing the PF in each razorback squad, and the dreads, in exchange for more generic marines that can't score is not that great of an Idea. I was however considering freeing points for landspeeders, but I am not sure if it is wise to add 3 more easy KPs.


@ Martyr,

1. I was planning on having the rune priest join the razorback squad with the flamer, while the wolf guard join the melta squads. Since I just read the errata I defiantly think storm caller is worth it, I think I will use it just like a KFF.

2 and 3. I also see the value in dropping the meltas for flamers, and the venerables down to normal dreads.

4. Yea I like them. If nothing else they are a nice speed bump.

I also like your list, but my problem with adding rune priest to the long fangs is in DoW missions. Since the razorback only carries 6 that forces the priest to walk, and most likely get shot down before he can be of use. Any thoughts on that?


After making the changes I mentioned I have 173 points to spend. I would not mind adding a rune priest if I can figure out the DoW problem. I was also considering putting extra armor on the razorbacks that hold troops, and adding wolf tooth necklaces to the rune priests.

So what should I spend the points on?

Stormcaller will not protect your vehicles it does not offer an obscured status to vehicle.

uh.. My list fires 24 missiles first turn, and 18 every turn after that... 6 hunter killers, 6 from the cyclones, 6 from the typhoons, and 6 from the long fangs.

The list already has an absurd amount of kill points. But that's fine. It also means you have an absurd amount of targets. You don't limit the amount of kill points your opponent recieves by what you take in the list, you limit them by how you play on the table.

My list has 6 scoring units while yours has 5. You don't want to be great in combat, you want your opponent to come up to your little squads, kill them in one round, and then allow you to shoot at them again when its your turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
why does everyone keep saying that stormcaller doesn't confer cover saves to vehicles?

I know that it doesn't confer an obscured status to a vehicle. It doesn't have to, you only have to be obscured to receive cover from either terrain or other models. But when you receive a cover save from a piece of wargear of psychic power, say.. stormcaller or shield of sanguinius, there's nothing preventing the vehicle from receiving that cover save.

It states 'all units within 6 inches recieve a cover save'

Is a vehicle a unit? Yes. Then if it's within 6 inches it receives a cover save. Not 'counts as being in 5+ cover save area terrain', but just receives the save, just like it says it does.

Twalks wrote:Stormcaller will not protect your vehicles it does not offer an obscured status to vehicle.

According to the errata it says it grants a 5+ cover save to units. It used to be squads which would not cover vehicles.

uh.. My list fires 24 missiles first turn, and 18 every turn after that... 6 hunter killers, 6 from the cyclones, 6 from the typhoons, and 6 from the long fangs.

The list already has an absurd amount of kill points. But that's fine. It also means you have an absurd amount of targets. You don't limit the amount of kill points your opponent recieves by what you take in the list, you limit them by how you play on the table.

My list has 6 scoring units while yours has 5. You don't want to be great in combat, you want your opponent to come up to your little squads, kill them in one round, and then allow you to shoot at them again when its your turn.

I was not counting the HKs because they are one shots, and you labeled the speeders as generic so I did not count them.

My list has 6 scoring units, one is a full squad in a pod with flamers that greatly increase my chances of contesting / holding an objective.

What does your list do against any IG list? you are not going to out shoot them and without the pods and CC ability I don't think you can make it across the board with enough power to do anything.

Do you own that list, or know anyone that does, I would like to see some battle reports.

Well as per rule book unless the vehicle has obscured status it cannot claim a cover save.... at least thats what I get when I read it..

Sorry, my fault, now that I looked back, I did forget to label the speeders but yes, they are typhoons, and for the first turn, those hunter killers are invaluable. Yes, they are only one shot, but you really just want that first turn to be all the more devastating. You just shoot at each of his tanks, shake or stun them and move on. You will cripple the firepower you receive in return, and you'll get lucky a few times and actually blow things up.

against IG its going to be same as it will be against any other army that has a similar amount of firepower, it will be down to who has first turn, and who can roll consistently well throughout their shooting phases. Whether this list could outshoot IG or not is debatable, all your firepower is more accurate, and coming from more targets. (IG tends to get almost all of their strong firepower from the heavy support and fast attack slots only, while you have firepower in every one of your units) That means that as they kill each of your units, you lose a lot less, while they lose more.

Sorry, I forgot about the drop pod unit. I just don't like the idea of your scoring units not being protected by a transport, or drop pods in general. 150 points for a suicide drop pod dread is just not worth it. If you really really want suicide drop podders then take sternguard with combimeltas. At least then you have the number of meltas needed to guarantee a destroyed vehicle on the turn you drop, or you can fire multiple flamers. But I wouldn't suggest either. They're just not efficient at what they do.

I own the 2000 point version of the list, I just need to get the terminators with cyclones and I have the rest for 2500. I will be playing a lot of practice games on the road to 'ard boyz, and I could try to remember to write up some battle reports with it if you'd like.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
twalks- it states: "at least 50% of facing of the vehicle that is being targeted needs to be hidden by intervening terrain or models from the point of view of the firer for the vehicle to claim to be in cover."

I am not claiming that the vehicle is in cover when it is within range of SoS, or stormcaller, just like infantry models are not in cover when they are in range of either power, I am just stating they are receiving a 5+ cover save. Sorry, I hope that's clear. There are multiple ways for a model to receive a cover save: fast vehicles moving flat out, bikes turboboosting, actually being in cover, and being in range of an ability that grants you a cover save are some examples.

Ya I realize that there are several ways to get cover saves.. but all of the ones I can think of grant obscured status.. ie skimmers moving flat out, general cover, KFF saves.. It doesn't have me convinced that stormcaller will grant a save to vehicles..

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/284466.page I put the question up in YMDC go ahead and state your case so I stop spamming the 2 threads..

Why else would GW Errata (not FAQ) the text to say Units instead of squads?

I realize that there is no precedent to SoS and stormcaller. KFF is similar, but like you have stated, it is different because it explicitly states that vehicles count as being obscured, but this is because when the ork book was released, vehicles couldn't get cover saves. So the only other example that we have is the skimmers moving flat out. Stating that because skimmers moving flat out grants 'counts as obscured' rather than 'receives a 4+ cover save' is not support for other new abilities that simply state "all friendly units within 6 inches receive a 5+ cover save" doesn't work for vehicles.

The part in the rulebook only talks about vehicles needed to be obscured toclaim to be in cover not receive a cover save

There are some models.. ie single independant characters.. lone wolves.. they are not squads.. therefore wouldn't get the cover save.. making even less sense.

Anyways YMDC for this.. And yes both lists are awesome.. and IMO these lists give up massve numbers of kill points.. BUT they are only countered by other lists which also give up lots of killpoints so having lots of kill points isn't really that big of a deal.

twalks- stormcaller does not state "squads" anymore, check the FAQ, it states "units". As does SoS.

units, pg3- "a unit will usually consist of several models that fight as a group, but it can also be a single, very large or powerful model, such as a battle tank, a monstrous or alien creature or a lone hero"

So a tank is a unit, and therefore receives a 5+ cover save from a power that states "all friendly units within 6 inches receive a 5+ cover save"

Make sense?

Their argument is that on pg 62 it say that a vehicle needs to be obscured and have a cover save in order to use the cover save.

I personally think thats reading to deeply into it. If a bank of fog rolls in its going to obscure sight weather or not the unit is a tank.

but for now please continue this topic on the YMTC forum and get back to finding something I can spend 173 points on.

Take some landspeeders, wiht meltagun and heavy flamer- does the dreadnoughts job, but lives longer!

You want your Priest with your Long Fangs in Dawn of War. Try this on...walk the Long Fangs on, and have said Rune Priest with them, if you're worried about return fire, just use Storm Caller or run into cover in your first turn. Don't worry my friend, I almost never put my Long Fangs in their Razorback unless one of two Circumstances arise:

1) I need them to redeploy for better Line of Sight

2) Something fighty is coming their way and I'm getting desperate in an Annihilation Match.

For filling out your 173 points, just toss in a Rune priest with some extra tools and call it a day.

By the by- your initial listing has 5 long fangs with 5 missiles? Don't you have to take a Long Fang Battle Leader, making squad sized up to 6?

yes I do its a typo. Thats why there was no room for the rune priest to ride in the razorbacks on DoW missions.

I think I am going to add another rune priest, and an inquisitor with 3 mystics. Its exactly 137 points