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With the imminent release of BA, has C:BT become obsolete?

Forgive me but I am not a BT player so I am not going to provide a lengthy reason why, just a few small examples.

BT, from what I gather, was the strongest CC MEQ. Then the SW dex was released, with their cheap point cost and bag of tricks. C:SM are arguably the most shooty (even though the "razorwire lists" are much stonger with SW and BA and arguably the most competitive way of making a MEQ gunline). But all was not lost since BT still had access to dedicated LR transport for their troops. BUT BA also have this now AND BA has FAST vehicles AND deepstriking LRs.

So what we have is shooty Nilla Marines, resilient CC SWs, and aggressive CC BAs with access to LRs as dedicated transport.

What niche/play style is left for BT to fill?

The atleast we aren't pretty boys or drunks niche?

Yeah, we're just zealous fanatics. I'm sitting on my army right now waiting for a new codex. Playing CSM in the meantime, cause, well, Templars and CSM are so alike... you know...

Anyway, we could end up being super swarmy; and we still have LR spam I think.

I am focusing more on play style. The SM dex uses the special characters to add flavor and play style to different astartes builds. Now in two seperate dexes, CC seems pretty much covered. So the question stands, other than fluff and aesthetic qualities, what will a BT dex offer gamers?

The ability to ignore lance weapons.

Viable footsloggers? Dunno how that would work, but it would be cool to see in the mechanized 5th edition world. (yes yes I know BT's can still do it, but more specialization would be neat).

Xca|iber wrote:Playing CSM in the meantime, cause, well, Templars and CSM are so alike... you know...

Don't ever say this in front of 1hadhq...

I think that when GW get round to releasing a new BT codex (face it, its going to happen) they will fulfill, the 'running forward screaming with lots of men' niche, meaning that orks never have to be used!

Seriously though, there will probably be some way of playing SM that hasn't been tried yet...

It may be time they get put down. Astartes and 3 Original Legions (first foundings? progenators? whatever they are called) is enough.


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If more marines are on their way in the next few years it better be DA and Chaos (A C:Renegades covering undivided legions; and at least two others to cover the four god specific legions).

It's really hard to carve out a particular niche for each of the "divergent" chapters. Space Wolves have always been the melee/herohammer chapter, ever since 2nd edition. Blood Angels have become the "fast" chapter, but are still very, very melee-centric. These leave the Templars awkwardly in the middle. The only real gimmick I can think of for them is the power armor horde, but Space Wolves have been able to do that with their Blood Claws for the longest time. The special rules Black Templars have set them apart for now (an entire army with preferred enemy, plus moving up faster as they get shot at) but they really need something special to carve out their own niche. Melee-divergent chapters are really crowding the MEQ scene right now.

I am necroing this thread because we now have a strong grasp of C:BA as well as the fairly strong rumors that GREY KNIGHTS are next.

I didn't even consider GK when I originally posted this thread. More CC MEQ except *gasp* they are psycher/anti demon!

I also didn't speak about DA originally. These guys at least provide the Death and Raven Wings (even though nearly ever marine dex can give you all termi lists and C:SM can create all biker lists) These guys are also thought to be the shootiest with a wealth of plasma weaponry.

Seriously, how many more loyalist marines do we need? Where do BT stand?

Deuce11 wrote:BT, from what I gather, was the strongest CC MEQ. Then the SW dex was released, with their cheap point cost and bag of tricks. C:SM are arguably the most shooty (even though the "razorwire lists" are much stonger with SW and BA and arguably the most competitive way of making a MEQ gunline). But all was not lost since BT still had access to dedicated LR transport for their troops. BUT BA also have this now AND BA has FAST vehicles AND deepstriking LRs.

I don't know about Black Templar, but I certainly WOULD argue that these "razorwire" lists are NOT the most competitive MEQ gunline variant. I am very much of the opinion that the strength of the Marines lies in their troops, not their vehicles. Razorback spam may annoy certain armies, but it's extremely second-rate compared to mechanized Eldar and IG lists. When it comes to transport tank battles, razorbacks don't hold a candle to waveserpents or chimeras.

Now that doesn't mean razorbacks are bad, they are still fantastic transports for BA Honor Guard or min-sized scoring squads, or Space Wolf Longfangs. It's just these lists that try to cram as many razorbacks in the list as possible that often fall short. And the failure mainly stems from the low power of the troops riding those vehicles. Those transports will inevitably pop, and there isn't much that can be accomplished by just 5 space marines with a flamer.

Do't forget that BT still get two heavy weapons in a five man terminator squad, and they still get veteran skills. Eight tank-hunting AC shots from a single Termie squad is pretty sweet.

Overall I agree that footslogging may be the niche where they shine over other SM 'dexes. BT are certainly better than Blood Claws.

Mannahnin wrote:Do't forget that BT still get two heavy weapons in a five man terminator squad, and they still get veteran skills. Eight tank-hunting AC shots from a single Termie squad is pretty sweet.

Overall I agree that footslogging may be the niche where they shine over other SM 'dexes. BT are certainly better than Blood Claws.

It may be sweet but does it justify its own codex? Why isn't it just incorporated into C:SM?

Look at how many chapter tactics Vulkan gets for Sallies. Now let's imagine one for BT.

I think a BT character could replace combat tactics for (1) Tactical squads may replace their Bolters with a CC weapon for free; (2) scouts may share dedicated transports with other troop choices; (3) Entire army benefits from the following USRs: Rage and Preferred Enemy; and (4) Troops may take Land Raiders as dedicated transports.

Now a BT player would prolly tell me I am a 'in bag for stripping down an entire codex to the above selection of changes but if you could imagine a world where we never had a separate C:BT, and this was all we knew, I'm sure no one would be screaming for another dex to represent this chapter.

The most unique things about the Templars:
Huge numbers of marines; to represent this perhaps they should get a discount on their models in some fashion.
Total zealotry; they put lots of guys in your face as fast as superhumanely possible, and rip out the heart of your army by overwhelming it. Their zeal moves embody this part.
Mechanized assault; this is something that is shared amongst most of the cc marines, but especially for Templars, mounting everyone in Land Raiders or Drop pods (as they are fleet based) is a big part of their fluff.

These are the things I think GW should embrace as far as differentiating the Templars from other CC MEQs.

Xca|iber wrote:The most unique things about the Templars:
Huge numbers of marines; to represent this perhaps they should get a discount on their models in some fashion.
Total zealotry; they put lots of guys in your face as fast as superhumanely possible, and rip out the heart of your army by overwhelming it. Their zeal moves embody this part.
Mechanized assault; this is something that is shared amongst most of the cc marines, but especially for Templars, mounting everyone in Land Raiders or Drop pods (as they are fleet based) is a big part of their fluff.

These are the things I think GW should embrace as far as differentiating the Templars from other CC MEQs.

Not to beat a dead horse, it is still twitching atm, you just named a BA list with all foot assault troops in dedicated LRs... it feeds into my point precisley. What niche can GW make a C:BT fill that hasn't already been done?

Here's a new point: do we even want marines to be able to fill every strategic role? Where does that leave the Xenos armies? What place will there be for CSM?