Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

As it's come to my attention from some local gamers the way I have been considering the TS for a while may in fact be off, so I require the assistance of common sensers and rules-lawyers alike to help me with this decision.

Artificer: "Each Necron turn, a Tomb Spyder not in combat may expend energy to create a Scarab swarm. The swarm is placed in contact with the Spyder at the start of the Assault phase."

Here is the odd part of the rules.

"Roll a D6 for each swarm produced. On a 1, the Spyder takes a wound as it is drained by the energy expenditure."

So now I ask you, the way I've been using it is that it can only make 1 swarm per turn and if it rolls a 1 it takes a wound without an armor save. How some others think is that I can make as many swarms as I choose per turn and every wound I take I can make an armor save as it doesn't say ignoring armor saves.

Which way of thinking is the way to go?

Kurgash wrote:As it's come to my attention from some local gamers the way I have been considering the TS for a while may in fact be off, so I require the assistance of common sensers and rules-lawyers alike to help me with this decision.

Artificer: "Each Necron turn, a Tomb Spyder not in combat may expend energy to create a Scarab swarm. The swarm is placed in contact with the Spyder at the start of the Assault phase."

Here is the odd part of the rules.

"Roll a D6 for each swarm produced. On a 1, the Spyder takes a wound as it is drained by the energy expenditure."

So now I ask you, the way I've been using it is that it can only make 1 swarm per turn and if it rolls a 1 it takes a wound without an armor save. How some others think is that I can make as many swarms as I choose per turn and every wound I take I can make an armor save as it doesn't say ignoring armor saves.

Which way of thinking is the way to go?

It is worded as such because you can have multiple Tomb spyders and creating the scarabs is optional. So for example, you have 3 Spyders, of which only 2 want to spawn. You would then roll D6 twice, one for each Spyder, rather than 1 dice for both spyders.

From the wording in the codex it would seem you can take a save, though the FAQ may change this (I don't have it to hand).

So, they're interpreting the "create a Scarab swarm." As being "create as many Scarab swarms as you want?"

As for the second part, usually, if an inflicted wound does not allow any type of armor/invulnerable/cover saves, the rules will say so. When in doubt, assume you can take a save if the rules do not say otherwise.

Saldiven wrote:So, they're interpreting the "create a Scarab swarm." As being "create as many Scarab swarms as you want?"

As for the second part, usually, if an inflicted wound does not allow any type of armor/invulnerable/cover saves, the rules will say so. When in doubt, assume you can take a save if the rules do not say otherwise.

They were looking more so at the 'for every swarm produced'

"Roll a D6 for each swarm produced. On a 1, the Spyder takes a wound as it is drained by the energy expenditure."

Is not the same as "roll a D6 for each swarm which was produced this turn".

You can make ONE per turn as the first rule says, and you pay upkeep EVERY turn for each one that was ever created by the spyder.

nostromo wrote:you pay upkeep EVERY turn for each one that was ever created by the spyder.

You sure about that? I would say 1 swarm per TS per turn rolling for a wound only when they are created.

Also, why you would get an armour save against these wounds I don't know, but enough abilities now say 'with no armour save possible' that you'd get this one by default.

Presumabley if you do this then the swarms forms a unit the TS and they now have to use the majority or average toughness too?

Nostromo - the sentence does NOT say "for every swarm THAT HAS BEEN produced", which is what you are trying to say it states - "for each swarm produced" defines it as swarms produced that turn, especially when you put it in context with the sentences around it which talk about wha you can choose to do each turn.

As such it is 1 roll for each swarm produced that turn, and precisely encompasses having multiple TS around, making it clear it is one per producing TS, not 1 no matter how many swarms are produced.

Yes, it forms a unit with the TS, and therefore the optimum is 1 - then the whole unit is the toughness of the TS.

You get an armour save as it doesnt say if it is a wound or an unsaved wound.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Nostromo - the sentence does NOT say "for every swarm THAT HAS BEEN produced", which is what you are trying to say it states - "for each swarm produced"

It's still in the past tense, i added 'has been' to highlight that, but lets look it in practice, take that swarm you produced last turn and answer me these questions two:
1. is it a "swarm"?
2. was it "produced" by the spyder?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You get an armour save as it doesnt say if it is a wound or an unsaved wound.

Of course, you get to save against wounds, just like bosspole wounds, a plasma pistol getting hot, i'm sure there's more than ample existing examples of this.

Stop removing the context. Of course it is in the past tense, as it refers to the Swarm that was *just* produced.

Answer me this: when you put the context back, what does it refer to?

I'm keeping the context in mind, I thought this thread revolved around the word "each" which seems to contradicts 'create a scarab swarm' and 'The swarm is placed ...", my explanation removes this apparent contradiction.

nostromo wrote:I'm keeping the context in mind, I thought this thread revolved around the word "each" which seems to contradicts 'create a scarab swarm' and 'The swarm is placed ...", my explanation removes this apparent contradiction.

There is no contradiction. "A" is neccesary because a new Scarab is being produced.

"The" subsequently refers tot he Scarab that was just produced.

Praxiss wrote:Presumabley if you do this then the swarms forms a unit the TS and they now have to use the majority or average toughness too?

Yes...not good for the ol' spyder.

Which is why you stop at 1 swarm

Gwar! wrote:

nostromo wrote:I'm keeping the context in mind, I thought this thread revolved around the word "each" which seems to contradicts 'create a scarab swarm' and 'The swarm is placed ...", my explanation removes this apparent contradiction.

There is no contradiction. "A" is neccesary because a new Scarab is being produced.

"The" subsequently refers tot he Scarab that was just produced.

Fine then stick your head in the sand if you must.

No, you're the one sticking their head in the sand.

The rule in no way shape or form states what you say it states. Context requires that it refers to the swarm just produced. Nothing else.

If you dont have naything constructive to post, dont post.

There is a difference in meaning between;

A. Each swarm produced. If you produce a swarm, your Spyder is subject to stress in its production.

B. Each produced swarm. There may be swarms which have been produced -- these should be called produced swarms to distinguish them from other swarms which were part of the original list. But in the rules they are not, because the rules don't need to make that distinction.

As such the meaning is clearly that the Spyder rolls for a swarm it has just produced, not any produced swarm.

Otherwise all your Spyders would have to roll saves for all the produced swarms on the table, which would be nonsense.

It loses a wound. It's because it takes energy...to make scarabs...

Dreadnought96 wrote:It loses a wound. It's because it takes energy...to make scarabs...

Looking through other books now, I get the armor save because it's the same idea with perils, the psyker takes a wound but with only invul saves allowed. In the spyder set, it just says takes a wound, nothing about armor saves not being allowed. Trust me, that was how I originally looked at it through rational means but after playing many RAW warriors you just have to stop trying to use common sense, it doesn't apply with them.