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I don't know how things are where you guys & gals play, but I see a creeping trend of elitism getting into the game. The more people I get to know, the more seriously people seem to take this game: People who never have their lists ready before you come to your scheduled game, ask you what you're running, and then take things to specifically counter it... Every single time. And people who get too much of a kick when they beat you. Or people who take a completely unfluffy, incoherent, overkill everything list.

Basically, people who don't know the difference between a friendly game and a tournament.

I find people taking this game too seriously and who spend virtually ALL their free time at the shop. When this happens I see clicks forming that include people who spend every waking moment there. And then there's everyone else who has a life. They are no longer welcome and a very inbred, unhealthy attitude ensues. That's what caused me to leave my home game store and switch over to spend all my time with Commissar Katherine.

I see that so many people seem to have lost their love for the hobby.... Making a campaign with a story, painting something that's truly unique. Make no mistake, there are still plenty of those people around, but they seem to be a shrinking minority.

Anyone else seeing the same thing where they are? Tell me how, where, why, and what you think about it. I want to see if I'm the only one.

You're just playing on a different wavelength than them, and the moments when your
lives cross you can take the time you can both learn from each other. Yes, some of this
will lead to power gamers winning games, but they can show you a thing or two provided
they themselves took the time to understand why their gaming works on the table. And
you in return can show them a thing or two with painted models, stories, etc.

Furthermore, if you're on a different wavelength, expect them to look at you in much the
same way. "Why isn't he spending more time at the store gaming?" they're posting right
now on a different forum, "He'd get better if he only played more games."

Btw: I'm proof positive that more gaming doesn't necessarily lead to better gaming.

Honestly...I'm inclined to agree with you. When I first started taking this hobby seriously it was just me and 3 friends playing games on a 8X4 table made from Ikea legs and plywood with cardboard boxes for terrain. we worked our way from 500pts to around 1500. I really got a kick out of the hobby then. Every time we got together was fun. Two of the guys from that group stopped playing after 2 months of 5th edition. the other member of our gaming group, is very competitive, prides himself on hammering crazy powerful lists. The other two guys stopped playing cause they just got tired of losing.

So since the gaming group died I've come to playing games at the local GW, the store manager is a cool guy, who really loves his job. he's got more armies then I'd ever even wanna consider owning....some of the local customers are allright, and some of them are WAAC players. As for the guy who stuck with 40k, we get games in now and then. but now its always about the most busted units, most point efficient lists... I'm actually having a hard time sticking with 40k as designing a force I want to build paint and collect, comes with the black and white fact that its not super competitve, and if I play him im going to get stompped... not that al I wanna do is win, but getting tabled on turn 3....is not how i wanna spend my saturday afternoons.

malfred wrote:You're just playing on a different wavelength than them, and the moments when your
lives cross you can take the time you can both learn from each other. Yes, some of this
will lead to power gamers winning games, but they can show you a thing or two provided
they themselves took the time to understand why their gaming works on the table. And
you in return can show them a thing or two with painted models, stories, etc.

Furthermore, if you're on a different wavelength, expect them to look at you in much the
same way. "Why isn't he spending more time at the store gaming?" they're posting right
now on a different forum, "He'd get better if he only played more games."

Btw: I'm proof positive that more gaming doesn't necessarily lead to better gaming.

I completely agree with learning from each other. The only real problem I have is that I find more and more people abandoning respect for their fellow gamer a lot more quickly than they used to. Do you find that at all? The constant tournament attitude makes it look like a poor man's version of professional sports. I find people losing track of reality more easily when the focus on power gaming, as you so aptly put it. I just don't like the rudeness I encounter so often. And the total lack of respect I see when I play. That, and the little things like building a list specifically to counter yours to have the best chance at getting the big W.

And don't get the impression I don't win either... I'm not whining because I don't win. If I don't win, there's 1 of 2 reasons: 1) I'm missing something in my list 2) My opponent is cheating. Currently my bugs are on a 8 game win streak with two draws and my eldar are winning in 60% of their games. I just want things to be in perspective.


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The_0perator wrote:Honestly...I'm inclined to agree with you. When I first started taking this hobby seriously it was just me and 3 friends playing games on a 8X4 table made from Ikea legs and plywood with cardboard boxes for terrain. we worked our way from 500pts to around 1500. I really got a kick out of the hobby then. Every time we got together was fun. Two of the guys from that group stopped playing after 2 months of 5th edition. the other member of our gaming group, is very competitive, prides himself on hammering crazy powerful lists. The other two guys stopped playing cause they just got tired of losing.

So since the gaming group died I've come to playing games at the local GW, the store manager is a cool guy, who really loves his job. he's got more armies then I'd ever even wanna consider owning....some of the local customers are allright, and some of them are WAAC players. As for the guy who stuck with 40k, we get games in now and then. but now its always about the most busted units, most point efficient lists... I'm actually having a hard time sticking with 40k as designing a force I want to build paint and collect, comes with the black and white fact that its not super competitve, and if I play him im going to get stompped... not that al I wanna do is win, but getting tabled on turn 3....is not how i wanna spend my saturday afternoons.

Like Malfred said, it's different strokes for different folks, but really... What's the point of playing a FRIENDLY GAME if only one half of the table is friendly and civil? I want to win also, but in a context where there's mutual respect and fairness. Not where people exploit every rule to gain the most advantage they can. That attitude is far too prevalent in America. Guess what everyone, it's NOT all about you, you're NOT the center of the universe, and NO, you're NOT entitled to get everything you want. Working together with people and being accommodating is the way to truly enjoy the game. Have you ever met a power game who truly enjoys the game? Or are they spending all their time making the biggest & best because they have to keep up their reputation or compensating for something that's missing in their life? Personally, I've never met a power gamer who still truly enjoys the game. And I know a lot of them. I know a lot of tournament people, and when they play dirty they do, but they'd rather just play hard, play well, and play fair. But their numbers are dwindling it seems...

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:
Like Malfred said, it's different strokes for different folks, but really... What's the point of playing a FRIENDLY GAME if only one half of the table is friendly and civil? I want to win also, but in a context where there's mutual respect and fairness. Not where people exploit every rule to gain the most advantage they can. That attitude is far too prevalent in America. Guess what everyone, it's NOT all about you, you're NOT the center of the universe, and NO, you're NOT entitled to get everything you want. Working together with people and being accommodating is the way to truly enjoy the game. Have you ever met a power game who truly enjoys the game? Or are they spending all their time making the biggest & best because they have to keep up their reputation or compensating for something that's missing in their life? Personally, I've never met a power gamer who still truly enjoys the game. And I know a lot of them. I know a lot of tournament people, and when they play dirty they do, but they'd rather just play hard, play well, and play fair. But their numbers are dwindling it seems...

I'm not going to get into the whole "What I Think a Powergamer Is" topic because my opinion is different than yours, given what you've written. Instead, I'll post about how I play with my friends.

We like making cheesy, broken, OTT lists. We play to win, and win by tabling if possible, even in friendly games. And we have a ton of fun doing it. The other day we were in my buddy's basement with a tooled Ork list with Ghaz, Nob Bikerz, and Deffrolla wagons going up against Max OD Vanilla. And we had a ton of fun-had some food, bantered across the table, etc while running, at full power, lists that will get you tossed out of your FLGS's campaigns

And at the end of the game, we shook hands and went on with the rest of the night. No drama, no hurt feelings.

It's eminently possible to have a friendly game while still trying to utterly crush your opponent. The two are not mutually exclusive.

When the drama and hurt feelings come up are when expectations differ: 1 player is doing his utmost to win and is, by superior list, tactics, what have you, beating his opponent who clings to the increasingly unrealistic expectaion of victory.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Basically, people who don't know the difference between a friendly game and a tournament.

Oh, there's a difference. 1 way I'm playing my buddies, another I'm playing strangers.

Even if I'm having a "Friendly" game with a stranger (and I ask which one people want now, friendly or competetive ) I'm still going to try my best to win and use all the tools at my disposal. Anything less would be disrespectful to my opponent, like saying that you don't need your maximum ability to beat them and they're hardly worth your time. That's what I see playing below your best as.

Now the way I play friendly games with an even field is list handicaps. Mono-god Daemons here I come!

Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:
Like Malfred said, it's different strokes for different folks, but really... What's the point of playing a FRIENDLY GAME if only one half of the table is friendly and civil? I want to win also, but in a context where there's mutual respect and fairness. Not where people exploit every rule to gain the most advantage they can. That attitude is far too prevalent in America. Guess what everyone, it's NOT all about you, you're NOT the center of the universe, and NO, you're NOT entitled to get everything you want. Working together with people and being accommodating is the way to truly enjoy the game. Have you ever met a power game who truly enjoys the game? Or are they spending all their time making the biggest & best because they have to keep up their reputation or compensating for something that's missing in their life? Personally, I've never met a power gamer who still truly enjoys the game. And I know a lot of them. I know a lot of tournament people, and when they play dirty they do, but they'd rather just play hard, play well, and play fair. But their numbers are dwindling it seems...

I'm not going to get into the whole "What I Think a Powergamer Is" topic because my opinion is different than yours, given what you've written. Instead, I'll post about how I play with my friends.

We like making cheesy, broken, OTT lists. We play to win, and win by tabling if possible, even in friendly games. And we have a ton of fun doing it. The other day we were in my buddy's basement with a tooled Ork list with Ghaz, Nob Bikerz, and Deffrolla wagons going up against Max OD Vanilla. And we had a ton of fun-had some food, bantered across the table, etc while running, at full power, lists that will get you tossed out of your FLGS's campaigns

And at the end of the game, we shook hands and went on with the rest of the night. No drama, no hurt feelings.

It's eminently possible to have a friendly game while still trying to utterly crush your opponent. The two are not mutually exclusive.

When the drama and hurt feelings come up are when expectations differ: 1 player is doing his utmost to win and is, by superior list, tactics, what have you, beating his opponent who clings to the increasingly unrealistic expectaion of victory.

On that you're absolutely right: The difference between where you play and where I play is that you have an understanding: We're going to run cheesy, crush all lists. All of us are going to do that. Where I play that understanding isn't there. People just make up their power lists to counter yours, they know you're trying experimental lists and try to exploit it at every turn. If both parties do that, like you said, all is well. But how can you do that fairly when someone is making up something on the spot and asking you what you're taking so that they can counter it specifically at every turn? It's just incredibly unprofessional in my opinion. What are you thoughts on that?

GfC..... It is usually a good idea to be Vague when 'telling' whats on you list. Especially if they do not have their list ready.

Example:
"Whatcha bringin?"
"Nilla Marines"
"No What troop types..."
"Some Command, A few Troops, some bikes, couple heavies....."
"Ok, Cool....."
... At this point if he gets too specific with the questions, tell him to get his list and "We'll trade."

He doesnt NEED to know that your Command is a Special Character, the troops are all (in my one army) Scouts, The heavies are mostly Heavy Bolters, and the bikes have a Powerfist and 2 meltas.

Its a tactic that has worked for me... some call it "Show me yours and I'll show you mine."

I think the important point is that your approach to gaming is NOT what makes for poor experiences - its your approach to gamers.

I have had terrific games across a whole slew of different systems and rulesets for the last 20 years, against top tourney lists and very cool, fluffy lists alike. I have also had some horrible gaming experiences, but in every case it was my opponent that I had the problem with, not the army or the playstyle.

Ultimately, you have to communicate with your opponent. If you want to play with an uncompetitive but very fluffy army (pure Slaaneshi Daemons, Thousand Sons, Grey Knights, etc) or just have an idea for using uncompetitive units in an otherwise potentially strong list (Arco-flagellents, Ogryns, Summoned Daemons, etc) then tell your opponent. Explain why you made those choices and what you want to get out of the game.

If your opponent is a regular tournament player who only has very strong lists, then it might be an idea to not play - you won't give them the challenge they need and using a broom to sweep your huge dead-pile away is no-one's idea of fun.

Alternatively, use the game as a learning exercise. If you want to be more competetive (not saying you do, necessarily, but if so) play through the game and get your opponent to show you why they've made their choices and what effect it has. Study the effective combos and see how you can apply it to your own army. Finally, if both parties agree, have a challenge game where you swap armies. This gives both of you an unusual experience that will show you what the 'other side of the fence' is like.

If your opponent won't do any of these things, then I think you're perfectly justified in calling them on it. All gamers have to remember that they are in a niche hobby that doesn't have a divine right to exist forever. If they want the game they enjoy to grow they need to appreciate that not everyone will approach it the same way. They need to understand why people take different lines and be open about their own take on it. Ultimately this means talking to people and the closed minds that won't (or can't) do this are the ones who are a real detriment to the hobby - however they play.

[/sermon]

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:

Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:We like making cheesy, broken, OTT lists. We play to win, and win by tabling if possible, even in friendly games. And we have a ton of fun doing it. The other day we were in my buddy's basement with a tooled Ork list with Ghaz, Nob Bikerz, and Deffrolla wagons going up against Max OD Vanilla. And we had a ton of fun-had some food, bantered across the table, etc while running, at full power, lists that will get you tossed out of your FLGS's campaigns

And at the end of the game, we shook hands and went on with the rest of the night. No drama, no hurt feelings.

It's eminently possible to have a friendly game while still trying to utterly crush your opponent. The two are not mutually exclusive.

When the drama and hurt feelings come up are when expectations differ: 1 player is doing his utmost to win and is, by superior list, tactics, what have you, beating his opponent who clings to the increasingly unrealistic expectaion of victory.

On that you're absolutely right: The difference between where you play and where I play is that you have an understanding: We're going to run cheesy, crush all lists. All of us are going to do that. Where I play that understanding isn't there. People just make up their power lists to counter yours, they know you're trying experimental lists and try to exploit it at every turn. If both parties do that, like you said, all is well. But how can you do that fairly when someone is making up something on the spot and asking you what you're taking so that they can counter it specifically at every turn? It's just incredibly unprofessional in my opinion. What are you thoughts on that?

While the 'competitive vs casual' problem IS solved by having a group that only plays the hardest lists, it can cause other problems. What about the guy who really wants to play Kroot Mercs? He's not allowed, becuase nobody will play an army at that level? Or what about when a new codex comes out and nerfs your build. You MUST go and buy the new powerful units so that your list can be competitive enough? If everyone always played the hardest lists, there would be MUCH less diversity in the game. I think this is a bad thing.

What would particularly worry me is the idea that NOT bringing an uber-competitive list is somehow disrespectful to your opponent. In my little group, we have the models to play 'hard' lists. Sometimes we do. It can be great fun building supercompetitive lists. If we do decide to play a list like that, we'll make sure the opponent knows about it. And then both of us play 'hard' lists and it's fine. But, if my opponent was bringing Kroot Mercs for a friendly game, I wouldn't roll out the Dual Lash and Oblits and then say that HE was being disrespectful by not being challenging enough. That shows no respect for how HE wants to play the game...

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:I don't know how things are where you guys & gals play, but I see a creeping trend of elitism getting into the game. The more people I get to know, the more seriously people seem to take this game: People who never have their lists ready before you come to your scheduled game, ask you what you're running, and then take things to specifically counter it... Every single time. And people who get too much of a kick when they beat you. Or people who take a completely unfluffy, incoherent, overkill everything list.

Basically, people who don't know the difference between a friendly game and a tournament.

I find people taking this game too seriously and who spend virtually ALL their free time at the shop. When this happens I see clicks forming that include people who spend every waking moment there. And then there's everyone else who has a life. They are no longer welcome and a very inbred, unhealthy attitude ensues. That's what caused me to leave my home game store and switch over to spend all my time with Commissar Katherine.

I see that so many people seem to have lost their love for the hobby.... Making a campaign with a story, painting something that's truly unique. Make no mistake, there are still plenty of those people around, but they seem to be a shrinking minority.

Anyone else seeing the same thing where they are? Tell me how, where, why, and what you think about it. I want to see if I'm the only one.

The bottom line is that gaming is like anything else in life. You need to be around people who are attuned to what you do and want and vice versa. If you do not like how the majority of people play the game around your area then you need to either start trying to get them to play a different style or find different people to play against.

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:On that you're absolutely right: The difference between where you play and where I play is that you have an understanding: We're going to run cheesy, crush all lists. All of us are going to do that. Where I play that understanding isn't there. People just make up their power lists to counter yours, they know you're trying experimental lists and try to exploit it at every turn. If both parties do that, like you said, all is well. But how can you do that fairly when someone is making up something on the spot and asking you what you're taking so that they can counter it specifically at every turn? It's just incredibly unprofessional in my opinion. What are you thoughts on that?

List tailoring is basically saying, "I suck too much to beat you without building my army specifically to crush yours". There's very little skill involved and just about anyone can do it. Playing competetively involves matching up all-comers lists.

ArbitorIan wrote:
While the 'competitive vs casual' problem IS solved by having a group that only plays the hardest lists, it can cause other problems. What about the guy who really wants to play Kroot Mercs? He's not allowed, becuase nobody will play an army at that level? Or what about when a new codex comes out and nerfs your build. You MUST go and buy the new powerful units so that your list can be competitive enough? If everyone always played the hardest lists, there would be MUCH less diversity in the game. I think this is a bad thing.

What would particularly worry me is the idea that NOT bringing an uber-competitive list is somehow disrespectful to your opponent. In my little group, we have the models to play 'hard' lists. Sometimes we do. It can be great fun building supercompetitive lists. If we do decide to play a list like that, we'll make sure the opponent knows about it. And then both of us play 'hard' lists and it's fine. But, if my opponent was bringing Kroot Mercs for a friendly game, I wouldn't roll out the Dual Lash and Oblits and then say that HE was being disrespectful by not being challenging enough. That shows no respect for how HE wants to play the game...

Oh, he can play Kroot Mercs. He'll probably lose a lot, but as long as he expects that there on't be any problems. As for diversity, between four of us that are the core of the group, we run Orks, Drop SWs, Guard, Templars, Eldar, CSM, Daemons, Vanilla, and sometimes Tau. About 2 armies/person.

And about the bringing your best, I guess you missed this:

The way I play "Friendly" games is list handicaps.

So I'll bring I "nicer" list, but then I'll use that list to its utmost to win. That's what I meant with using all the tools in your toolbox. The box is the list, the tools are your units.

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:I don't know how things are where you guys & gals play, but I see a creeping trend of elitism getting into the game.

It's been there the whole time. One of the reasons I got sick of a majority of the community so quickly :p

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:People who never have their lists ready before you come to your scheduled game, ask you what you're running, and then take things to specifically counter it... Every single time.

Or people who take a completely unfluffy, incoherent, overkill everything list.

For group 1 I refuse to show them my list until I see theirs.

For group 2, thats how you win top level tournaments, and why I don't play in them.

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:Anyone else seeing the same thing where they are?

There's an article on the stages of wargaming or some such. Read it.

I've done the WAAC thing (tho I never had to tailor my uber-hardcore TAC lists), but have since self-moderated my approach, and it's now confusing some people.

If you don't want to play that way, don't. Find someone else to play against.

I know your pain. In my small gaming group, there are four people. We play strictly casual games, testing new things all the time and having a blast. I am the only one who only has one army, or the only one that has a small army. Because of this, everyone knows that I'm playing Orks! This usually leads to the TFG from the group taking a lot of flamers and meching up. The rest of us, a Tau player, an Eldar player, and myself, simply take what we think will be fun or what we think will be unique. I once played with the Tau guy and he used 50 Kroot! If you don't like the 'power gamers', I suggest that you just hunker down and let them blow over. If they win all the time, eventually people will stop playing them and they'll move on.

I always play casually, however there is always one or two people we have that take it way too seriously. Even when we hold our own tournaments it's still a casual affair. The only real competitive tourney I've played in is 'Ard Boys, where the idea is to make a list to win. Don't get me wrong nobody likes to lose. Even still there are people out there I would not care to play because all they care about is winning and they always play the same lists and they tend to break the fundamental rule in Warhammer as stated in the rule book and that is to have fun. I noticed that the trend is common in all games.
I personally will take a break from the competitive stuff and focus on my modelling skills.

Many people will give you worthwhile advise to ease your issue. I am not one of those people.

Problem: win at all costs.

Solution:

I tend to agree with Chaos Brute that the issue isn't the game, or even the philosophy, it is the gamers. The guys at the store are apparently pricks who think it is reasonable to cheat to win a pick up game. Those types are all over every hobby that lends itself to it, from wall hackers in FPS games to footballers who pull crap when the ref isn't looking. The only real answer is to not game with them if they are going to do it.

To toss another anecdote out there, my local store is pretty decent about such things, with most guys being willing to try out suboptimal lists if you say you are running something squishy. However, just showing up with a fluff bunny list and expecting them to have something similar with them is a little much. You don't think you should be obligated to own and run the power units, and likewise they shouldn't be obligated to own the iffy ones. So one asks what they have while saying one's own list is hard/soft, and work it out from there. If an agreement on relative power can't reached, you simply have to suck it up and take a beating but get a game, or not play. Unfortunately gaming, like all non-violent social interaction, requires walking away occaisionally because a suitable solution is not reachable.

Also, some of my best games are at tournaments, partially because we have some really great guys to game against. Last one I was in I was curb stomped by a mess of Wave Serpents first round, and slaughtered Tau in droves round 2. I would have happily played that first game over and over, just because my opponent was a good guy and we both had fun, while the second was rather questionable in his actions. So it isn't worth knocking tournaments; it isn't the setting that makes the player a prick, it is the player.

I'm of the variety that on "game night," unless I'm told otherwise, I run softer, experimental lists for fun. I play orks, it's easy to put together some random ****, roll dice, and have a decent time even if I get curb-stomped. But in tourneys or campaign games, it's "GO TIME." Put your best min-max'd, bull**** units and have at it. I'll still play with class and sportsmanship, but those are games that have clearly defined themselves as "win or go home." One-off games for fun, there's no reason to bust out the nukes unless you agree to beforehand.

I get a couple of games per year when a relative visits. He'll bring a few of his favourites, I've access to my collection, and any other visitor is free to grab an army and join in.
There's a Baneblade that has proved completely pants, whoever plays it. A great fire magnet, but it usually spends the entire game hiding, getting off the occassional sponson shot but never worth its points value.
Then ther's a converted T35 Bridgelayer, carrying 2 flamers and a storm bolter, damned thing's heroic every time out.
Similarly, Vespids and Harlequins = rubbish, Assault marines and Tau=excellent.

But then, we're playing to pass time, have a beer and a laugh, and see what handiwork each has done since last time. This year he's bringing that Japanese super heavy crewed by pigs, I'll have boosted my Cadians with Valhallans, Steel legionnaires and some pretty Shadowforge girly marines. Who'll win? Who cares?

Com-peet-tee-tiv?

I go for fluffy lists. Most don't work, some do. My most surprising victory was 1000pts of footslogging IG vs Necrons and thier monolith. Didn't see that one coming.

I've only had trouble once before, when a couple of mates were practicing for a doubles tournament months in advance. Ussually I wouldn't know a power-list even if it ran up and kicked me in the 'nads, but this was painfully over-the-top. Mixed race sides were allowed so it had Lysander with TH/SS termies in a Landraider redeemer, Creed giving them scouts, a couple of IG tanks and the rest of the troops were scraped together with assorted meltas and the like. My first game was fine, but I got clobbered. After the 4th game with them (they kept asking for practice) I was well and truly sick of it. I think it's becuase I got bored of versing a list for the 5th time knowing exactly what the outcome would be.

Really, for the most part I just enjoy the thrill of playing a new army, any army, but if it's one I haven't played before then that's an added bonus. I always prefer a close fought loss to a smashing victory. (Believe me I'm speaking from experience here )

It's not the kill that makes the game, it's the hunt.

I see this at the 3 stores around my area. I ussually only go to one. But Its easy enuff to spot the people who are the power gamers and who arent. I am not one and what i found to be the easy fix was just to pick up everyones cell # that you enjoy playing with. That way you always have a good player to play with.

The guys I play with are all a bunch of extremely competitive dudes, and so am I. I wouldn't have it any other way. Every game is a challenge, and every win is to be savored sweetly.

There may be a few that have come and gone who felt that getting their "fun" and "fluffy" lists crushed mercilessly was tiresome, but I suppose that's just a side effect of a competitive atmosphere.

Which isn't to say that we don't have cool little events that we stage with fluffy armies and whatnot, but if that's what you want you should specify ahead of time and we'd be happy to accommodate you.

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:I don't know how things are where you guys & gals play, but I see a creeping trend of elitism getting into the game.

And you appear to have your share of it as well...

People who never have their lists ready before you come to your scheduled game, ask you what you're running, and then take things to specifically counter it... Every single time.

That's the only thing that I agree with is an issue.

Or people who take a completely unfluffy, incoherent, overkill everything list.

People have fun in different ways.

I see that so many people seem to have lost their love for the hobby.... Making a campaign with a story, painting something that's truly unique. Make no mistake, there are still plenty of those people around, but they seem to be a shrinking minority.

News flash...People enjoy the hobby in different ways than you do...There is no one right way to enjoy the hobby and you sound as bad as the people you are criticising from the other perspective.

Incoming!
*ducks head and watches the Dakka Casual Gaming Mafia pile into the new anti-competitive thread*

For those who want to build a list to counter yours, you can tell them "not sure...I'll randomly select a list right before we start", and have a couple ready.

For the not-so-fun-to-play-against, just tell them "no thanks, I'll wait for a game". Be prepared to honestly tell them why if they ask.

OK, I'm a competitive gamer, a tournament gamer. There, I said it. And I'm proud of it. I've done well in tourneys, from US GTs on down to local events. Do I still play casually? You bet I do, nearly every week. Do I pull the antics you've mentioned. Nope. Why? I don't pull that BS precisely BECAUSE I'm a competitive tournament gamer.
That means I show up with a list already built, just like I would in a tourney. Most of the time, I don't even know who my opponent is until I show up and see who is free for a game, out of the 15-20 regular weekly gamers that show up.
The only exception to this is our competitve pyramid. There, I do indeed build lists specifically for my opponent. Course, it's a challenge thing and games are set days in advance. So if they want to try to kick me off the top of the pyramid, they better bring their best game, cause I certainly am. (And yes, I'm on the top with IG!)
That means I try to make it an enjoyable game for both of us, just like I would in a tourney. Least I can do considering the butt-whooping they're going to get.
That means if I have questions about your army or you have questions about my army, we discuss them, just like in a tourney. I even go over my unit's special rules, cause I'm gonna beat you by being a better player, not by some slight-of-hand magic trick.
Heck, on occasion, it even means I send you my list in advance and ask you to specifically build a list to counter it, just to see how I will do against something built to counter my army.

Bottom line. Real tourney (competitive) players are not a**holes. People that do what you've described are not real tourney players but they are indeed the other.

don_mondo wrote:
Bottom line. Real tourney (competitive) players are not a**holes. People that do what you've described are not real tourney players but they are indeed the other.

QFT

+1

/end thread

...you get the point.

We have to keep in mind there is a difference between being competitive on one hand and being rude to an opponent on the other.

That’s the important distinction. The problem the OP identifies is not because people are competitive, it’s because they’re rude or thoughtless, or maybe not even that, possibly it’s just because the players involved are not communicating their desires effectively to one another, and assuming that it’s the other person’s responsibility to know what they want. Communication & compromise, as with most areas of life, smooth out problems like this.