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What is your preferred method of Sportsmanship scoring in tournaments?
Opponent numerical score (i.e. give each opponent 0-10 score).
Opponent ranked (i.e. one opponent is best, other opponent is 2nd, etc).
Opponent pass/fail (i.e. your opponents either pass or fail basic sportsmanship).
Opponent checklist (i.e. checklist of specific sportsmanlike activities).
Tournament Judge yellow card/red card (i.e. one warning and then tournament ejection)
I prefer tournaments with no Sportsmanship scoring.
Option not listed (please write in comments).
I don't play in tournaments/don't have a preference.

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Made in us
[ADMIN]
President of the Mat Ward Fan Club






Los Angeles, CA


What is your preferred method of Sportsmanship scoring in tournaments and why?




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Made in au
Death-Dealing Ultramarine Devastator






I was going to go with yellow card and red card, but I find that doesn't really counter the major 'bad sportsman' behavior like stalling and moving miniatures too far.

The numerical score would be ideally best, but once again in reality it fails because it is highly open to exploitation.

I feel the best is a definitive check list of things an opponent did or did not do. You can call them up on breaking sportsman like behavior at the time and it's much less open to exploitation.

Really though, in most environments sportsmanship scores aren't effective. The small effect they have on giving an incentive to adhere to a friendly game are countered by the ease at which even the most elaborate systems can be exploited.

 
   
Made in ca
Wicked Warp Spider






From my experience the more points you give some one to screw you over the worse the experience of the tournament is. Its subjective in the extreme, you can have a catagory for painting, comp, and sportsmanship but if the guy didnt like your army he can ding you across the board if he feels like it.

To be honest that was a well know tactic at tournaments here, if you bomb the 4 or 5 people you play against they will automatically never be able to win the tournament or come in the top 10. For example at a major tournament I came in 13th, 8pts off from winning the tournament, and its because 1 guy nuked my soft scores because I beat him/ hates eldar/ whatever. Every other opponent gave me perfect scores (they were happy to tell me) while this guy jotted down whatever and walked away. So 1 person out of 5 games is able to cost you a tournament because he is sore loser? No thanks.

A checklist like they had for the Vegas GT years ago was pretty cool, and there was really only 3 checks that you could ding your opponent on short of him not coming prepared to the tournament at all.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/03/23 14:55:34


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Wolf Guard Bodyguard in Terminator Armor







I like the checklist.

My FLGS has a checklist with 10-12 possible points per game depending on who's tourney it is.

I dont recall the exact wording or all the exact parameters, but its something like this.

Did your opponent show up on time/start the game in a timely manner (1 point)
Did your opponent have all the required materials [rulebook, codex, dice, measuring device, etc] (1 point)
Did your opponent play the game in a timely manner [not slowplaying] (3 points)
Was all of your opponents army WYSIWYG or clearly marked to avoid confusion? (1 point)
Were all rules disputes handled amicably, [call a judge, roll off, come to a resonable agreement] (1 point)
Did your opponent strive to measure all distances accurately? (1 point)
Would you willingly play against this opponent again? (1 point)

there were a few more, but its a solid system, and the only people who get marked off for anything know exactly why. (for example, I always misplace my scatter dice, and lose out on "having all required materials". Another guy plays with a few counts-as and proxies, so he loses out on the WYSIWYG point)

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Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre





Bulgaria

None for me please im on a diet.


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Angry Chaos Agitator






Long Beach, CA

Any option where it is not my opponent doing the scoring is preferred. Opponent Scoring leaves too much room for corruption within the gaming environment. So TO involvement or no sportsmanship score is preferred. Why would I trust a poor sportsman to score me fairly? This sort of scoring defies logic.

   
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Stormin' Stompa





Binghamton, NY

Never played in a tourney, but Demogerg's checklist sounds pretty good. Clear, simple points to check off avoid the issues of arbitrariness or tactical score-dinging. Only way to mess with that is to outright lie, but you'd have to be a real -head to do so. Those guys are out there, though, which is why I was initially imagining the yellow/red card system to be the best. Jerks and cheaters should be docked, friendly players rewarded, and score manipulation kept to a minimum. No system can guarantee that without a good, honest player-base, which can't be guaranteed. I'd like to be at least a little optimistic, so I'll say the checklist sounds like the best choice available, should Sportsmanship be included in scoring.

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Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle





Valdosta, Georgia

I believe that Sportmanship should not apply in a tournament, it the simple fact that a player or players can either place you in the winning circle or the loser one.

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Gimlet-Eyed Inquisitorial Acolyte




USA

Ranking opponents against each other for sportsmanship is a poor practice because a lot of the time someone gets shortchanged with a lower score even when they were a lot of fun to play with.

Bobo
"Always Angry, All The Time! And That's All You Need To Know!"
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Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets





UK

An opponent checklist sounds like it should be used. This way it can cover the basics and would take out the ambiguety that is sportsmanship and break it up into the real catagories.

   
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Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon





Land of Sunflowers and Oz

I like the idea of either a pass/fail system, because the 1-5 or 1-10 is so subjective and most players give everyone highest possible because they know it's a soft score.

I was even asked once why I gave someone a 4 vs a 5 and I stated "That was a good game, not the best ever" which was the stipulation. But apparently everyone plays the "best game ever" every time...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Make a checklist?

1- Did opponent purposely play slow for an advantage?
2- Did opponent tell you all special rules for his army?
3- Did opponent state "This is the best game ever!" during your match?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/03/24 14:46:08


No madam, 40,000 is the year that this game is set in. Not how much it costs. Though you may have a point. - GW Fulchester
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Angry Chaos Agitator






Long Beach, CA

@Uriels_Flame - Even your list is subjective. 1, How do you know if the opponent was doing it on purpose? 2, All special rules? This may take a good part of the session for DH, WH, or DE. 3, I guess this is just a gimme?

Anytime an opponent is given the power to grade you, you are opening the door up for poor scoring. Even with a checklist, there is no system for preventing your opponent from lying, as in no audits or TO checking if you wrote the wrong thing for advantage. As stated before, a poor sportsman already has demonstrated his lack of respect of the game, why do we continue to think that this mean they will fairly judge my sportsman scores?

   
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[SWAP SHOP MOD]
I just can't help myself.






T-county

I have never had, but like the idea of a checklist.
Even though someone could lie, if the TO sees that you had all your equipment, WYSIWYG, etc in 4 of your games but somehow didnt on the 5th its kind of obvious whats going on.
It would be extra work for the staff, but would the extra glance over the score cards for discrepancys really take that long?
   
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Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon





Land of Sunflowers and Oz

AbsoluteBlue wrote:@Uriels_Flame - Even your list is subjective.


I was being facetious by making the list.

Pass/Fail in my book. If it's a fail, organizers can follow-up.

No madam, 40,000 is the year that this game is set in. Not how much it costs. Though you may have a point. - GW Fulchester
2000pts Sammael and Ravenwing

2000pts Huron Blackheart and Black Legion
 
   
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Angry Chaos Agitator






Long Beach, CA

Doh. Sorry, didn't catch it...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/03/25 06:17:40


   
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[DCM]
Is breaking all the rules.





Everett, WA

I hate when people score each other for anything. The scoring becomes a way to screw over your opponent or devolves into a popularity contest.

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Dangerous Leadbelcher






sydney/australia

i reckon just have sportsmanship (best person you played 1st etc) just to break up points and not actual scores because people need some incentive to not be a **** and this doesn't mean that sports will decide the entirety of the tornament

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Longtime Dakkanaut





0-10 sportsmanship scoring is the worst system ever, in my experience it is used to simply penalize people who won, and vindictively when a poor sport doesn't know the rules, has bad luck, or is trying to pad the scores for their more capable friends.

If someone has to call a judge on and you are wrong on a rule, multiple times, what basis do you have to even assign your opponent a 0-10 sportsmanship score anymore?

What's the difference between a 9 and a 10, is it like grades were a 6 is passing, or is a 6 pretty good being in the top half of the scores? There's no meaningful criteria and people tend to reduce it to boolean anyway, 0s and 10s.

Breotan wrote:I hate when people score each other for anything. The scoring becomes a way to screw over your opponent or devolves into a popularity contest.


Indeed.

I have also gotten knocked for comp the same way, someone once told me, I don't like cookie cutter squads, you have to many the same. In my next round my opponent said, I like how your army looks like a real army with same squads and markings.... So which is it?

The point is no meaningful criteria.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/03/25 16:00:38


 
   
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Slippery Scout Biker





Boise, Idaho

I've done a few tournaments in local shop ages ago. It was just who won the match and who lost was all that was of concern.

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Angry Chaos Agitator






Long Beach, CA

Augustus wrote:0-10 sportsmanship scoring is the worst system ever, in my experience it is used to simply penalize people who won, and vindictively when a poor sport doesn't know the rules, has bad luck, or is trying to pad the scores for their more capable friends.

If someone has to call a judge on and you are wrong on a rule, multiple times, what basis do you have to even assign your opponent a 0-10 sportsmanship score anymore?

What's the difference between a 9 and a 10, is it like grades were a 6 is passing, or is a 6 pretty good being in the top half of the scores? There's no meaningful criteria and people tend to reduce it to boolean anyway, 0s and 10s.

Breotan wrote:I hate when people score each other for anything. The scoring becomes a way to screw over your opponent or devolves into a popularity contest.


Indeed.

I have also gotten knocked for comp the same way, someone once told me, I don't like cookie cutter squads, you have to many the same. In my next round my opponent said, I like how your army looks like a real army with same squads and markings.... So which is it?

The point is no meaningful criteria.


QFT.

   
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Twisted Trueborn with Blaster






Northern Ireland

Never heard of sportsmanship scoring. I just thought you won or lost, and cheating wasnt an option?

I went for the yellow/red card option as it seemed the most accurate method.

If sportsmanship refers to (oh dont fire everything cuz thats unfair), then in my opinion the whole tournament would be pointless as winning is the aim of the game!

Im not a competative player tho so I probably wouldnt enter tournaments or if I did, I wouldnt mind getting smashed if thats what happened.

Full on, Full on! 
   
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Charging Orc Boar Boy




T.O.

People do need an incentive not to act like jerks during a game... Especially in highly competitive environments, it just keeps things civil.
Sportsmanship scores never have anything to do with generalship awards, which, depending on the tournament, is the important quality. The ones that do an overall award also factor in painting, fluff and selection, so sportsmanship doesn't add a huge bump.

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Angry Chaos Agitator






Long Beach, CA

@Leith - I have found that people DO NOT need an incentive to not act like jerks. As I have mentioned, this is a false dilemma. One which even sportsmanship scoring does not solve. In general, people are not jerks in face to face situations. For those that are jerks, sportsmanship scoring does not stop them from being so. They just find subtler ways of being so. As I have also indicated before, if they are a jerk then you have just enabled them to further impact your score by giving them a subjective blind scoring method to penalize you and further their own ambitions. While an example does not establish proof, but as a data point, in my entire gaming career I have only played against one "jerk," mostly he was just socially inept and didn't know the rules and this was in an event that did have sportsmanship scores that heavily contributed towards the overall score.

   
Made in gb
Sniveling Snotling






United Kingdom

Having only been to one tournament I can't say...

But I'm sure it will be very 'sporting' which ever you choose

p.s. After reading through the post's i have to agree with AbsoluteBlue, in that it seems backward to play an opponate who cheats and expect him/her to score fairly, my sujestion would be to include a prize at the tourny, "The Best Sporting General" whatever, but everyone is to right down there favorate opposing player at the end of the tourny, one with the most vote's get a 50p pick and mix or whatever the prize is, seems unfair to score players down on sportmanship losing them the tourny after all we are all differant people and react to things differantly.
But if somebody is just a downright dirty cheat then that should be addressed by the organisers in some way.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/03/30 16:11:30


   
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[ARTICLE MOD]
Stuffed Cuddly Squiggoth






Chicago

Before this weekend, I hadn't experienced someone who deliberately chipmunked me. After seeing it in action, though, I'm more in favour of a yellow/red card system, with possibly a favourite/least favourite opponent vote to determine a sports "winner".

If I sit down with an opponent and we have what appears to be a mutually enjoyable game, I see absolutely no reason that either of us should be losing points over it.

   
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Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant




Edinburgh.

In my opinion, score out of 10 has to high abuse potential. For me if it as adhered to correctly the card system makes the most sense.

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Steadfast Grey Hunter






mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:I believe that Sportmanship should not apply in a tournament, it the simple fact that a player or players can either place you in the winning circle or the loser one.


Agreed. I've hosted several tournaments, and we always calculate sportsmanship, but only for the Sportsmanship Award and a separate prize, and never for the gameplay outcome.
   
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Da Head Honcho Boss Grot





Minnesota

Pass/Fail, with the result unrelated to actual scoring, but serving as a way for tournament organizers to keep track of who's having difficulties with who. For best results it would have a line under it that you can use to right the specific problem you had with your opponent in the case that you fail them, and the TO would be willing to "red card" people if the need really did arise.

For a "best sportsman award" you should use a ranking system, and probably keep it away from total score as well.

All in all, I don't think people need to be rewarded for them to avoid being a jackass, and I don't think a game against someone who was only attempting to be polite because of the scoring system would be that much fun anyways.

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Boom! Leman Russ Commander






Davie, FL

I'm surprised more tournaments don't do "Olympic" style scoring (drop the highest and lowest).
   
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[DCM]
DCM User






I chose numerical score because from my experiences not everyone is a 1 nor a 10.
   
 
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