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Made in ie
Choirboy





First I think they shouldn't have taken away the +2 to hit, i mean you don't just hand out sniper rifles to any1 they have to have training.

Secondly snipers should b able to shoot from Gone 2 Ground or auto have stealth or sumthing. Snipers spend time blending in with the terrain.

thirdly snipers should auto have Infiltrate. Snipers they would probably work they're way forward you never see snipers in any movie stayin with the regular troops.

any thoughts

 
   
Made in us
Morbid Black Knight






2+ to hit, no. Space marines have trained for centuries & fought just as much yet are only BS4. Perhaps let sniper rifles confer +1 BS.

Yes have stealth, no from gone-to-ground, it's a blatant rules contradiction and may confuse people.

Yes

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/03/26 00:07:22


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Made in us
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






Are you speaking of Sniper Units or Sniper Weapons? Because the two are not explicitly related.

For instance; I carry a "sniper rifle" in my unit, but I'm not a "Sniper." I perform "sniper like" functions, but I'm not blending in with the terrain anymore than my squad mates. I take targets of opportunity, but I don't sneak forward ahead of my unit.

If it is a Sniper Unit, like Ratlings (scoff), then all those sort of rules should be included in their design. However if it is just some guy with a "sniper rifle," then not necessarily are they "snipers." Like in the Imperial Guard Codex, every squad can have a Sniper Rifle. It's still a Guardsmen, but they have a Sniper Rifle. The "super sniper skills" I think are supposed to be represented with that 4+ to wound and Rending deal they have, which doesn't make particular sense to me.

For instance: Say I am armed with a Barret .50 rifle. When engaging light infantry (guys with no body armor), I'm not going to be too partial to where I hit them. If I make a hit, they're done. However if I am engaging a Space Marine, well then I'll be looking for weak points. So the strength of the weapon still plays a major role, as well as the skill of the holder (in all honesty, scopes just make finding your sight picture easier. Many scopes have relatively weak zooms, anyhow).

Just because anyone agrees with anyone, doesn't mean they are correct. Beware the thin line between what is "Correct" and what is "Popular." 
   
Made in au
Devout Arch-Lector





The idea is that you aren't firing a .50 cal round from a Barrett, you're firing a toxin needle, where the toxin has a 50% chance of killing regardless of the target (no, I don't know why).

When firing at targets with heavy armour, such as space marines, you aim for weakpoints. This is represented with the weapon's rending status. I know that scopes and accurate rifles don't really facilitate aiming for eyes and the like, but that's how it works in the movies so that's how it works in 40k.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/03/26 07:44:27


Kurt Vonnegut and novelist Joseph Heller were once allegedly at a party hosted by a billionaire hedge fund manager. Vonnegut mentioned that their wealthy host made more money in one day than Heller ever made from his novel Catch-22.

Heller responded: "Yes, but I have something he will never have: enough." 
   
Made in us
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






@ Sebster : Well now you're dictating fluff. Not all sniper weapons will be firing deadly toxins, and not all targets will be susceptible (Necrons, for instance). Sniper weapons are the way they are because they are supposed to be unique. It is an instance of GW holding onto an idea from a really old system, but not really sure how to keep it unique and interesting. Since it is not an unpopular system, there isn't really a reason to get rid of it.

Just because anyone agrees with anyone, doesn't mean they are correct. Beware the thin line between what is "Correct" and what is "Popular." 
   
Made in au
Devout Arch-Lector





Skinnattittar wrote:@ Sebster : Well now you're dictating fluff. Not all sniper weapons will be firing deadly toxins, and not all targets will be susceptible (Necrons, for instance). Sniper weapons are the way they are because they are supposed to be unique. It is an instance of GW holding onto an idea from a really old system, but not really sure how to keep it unique and interesting. Since it is not an unpopular system, there isn't really a reason to get rid of it.


I thought it was in the weapon description in the main book that sniper rifles fired toxic darts? I don't have my book nearby so I'll take your word either way. I do agree that there's no reason every sniper rifle to have toxic rounds, I'd leave that as an option for some troops.

Personally I'd just make them +1 to hit, St 4, Heavy, Rending, and probably drop the Pinning thing (if heavy machine guns don't suppress why would a sniper rifle?). They wouldn't be that great, but they'd be a decent weapon for scouts to swap to for free, or IG to swap to for a point.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/03/26 17:46:05


Kurt Vonnegut and novelist Joseph Heller were once allegedly at a party hosted by a billionaire hedge fund manager. Vonnegut mentioned that their wealthy host made more money in one day than Heller ever made from his novel Catch-22.

Heller responded: "Yes, but I have something he will never have: enough." 
   
Made in us
Fell Caller - Child of Bragg







Skinnattittar wrote:@ Sebster : Well now you're dictating fluff. Not all sniper weapons will be firing deadly toxins, and not all targets will be susceptible (Necrons, for instance). Sniper weapons are the way they are because they are supposed to be unique. It is an instance of GW holding onto an idea from a really old system, but not really sure how to keep it unique and interesting. Since it is not an unpopular system, there isn't really a reason to get rid of it.


The point is sniper rifles are assumed to be armed with ammunition that's especially deadly to whatever the target is. Actually says so in the 'cron codex in the little section about why they wounded by stuff like that.

I think OP is definitely confusing "sniper" with "person who is capable of using a sniper rifle". I think the rending rule is there to show the basic capabilities of going for a headshot or whatever. We already have a much better representation of an actual sniper is the Vindicaire assassin (picking off individual models, for example).

Over 350 points of painted Trolls and Cyriss 
   
Made in us
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






Current "snipers" fill a good slot for knocking on high toughness models without having to buy a high strength weapon (such as an autocannon). Rending wasn't added until recently, and isn't a bad reflection of a "head shot" or what have you (and works much better with the 4+ to wound method, rather than how other weapons use it).

The issue is well reflected with man "Zombie 40k" rules, where headshots are represented by rolls to hit of 6. The problem with that method is that models with BS1 have a distinct advantage over models with BS10 (as you normally pay proper points for either, making BS1 very cheap with the same likely hood of a head shot as BS10).

My solution would be to have "sniper rifles" with a Strength value. However then it would just be another weapon. So the current system, while not perfect, works well and adds a needed dynamic to the game.

Just because anyone agrees with anyone, doesn't mean they are correct. Beware the thin line between what is "Correct" and what is "Popular." 
   
Made in us
Morbid Black Knight






sebster wrote:but that's how it works in the movies so that's how it works in 40k.

lol, no

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Made in us
Homicidal Veteran Blood Angel Assault Marine





The problem with that method is that models with BS1 have a distinct advantage over models with BS10 (as you normally pay proper points for either, making BS1 very cheap with the same likely hood of a head shot as BS10).


But that's the point of Sniper weapons.

Models like the guardsmen having a way to fight against Wraithlords and Bloodthirsters and the such without having to resort to high-strength weapons.

A cheap way for a cheap model to hurt something big...

 
   
Made in ie
Choirboy




I was just thinking that the rules should represent that it's not just a soldier being handed a weapon that it's they're weapon that they've been trained on/with or had a load of practice within it and I just think that the old rules did a better job of that but not perfect.

It should be more like the vindicare assassin but still not as powerful.

 
   
Made in us
Homicidal Veteran Blood Angel Assault Marine





Then that would be a separate unit altogether, such as you said a Vindicare sniper.


The snipers used by normal squads is more of a representation of a 'Designated Sniper' in today's military squads. Not an actual sniper shooting from miles away. But a soldier given a (In modern times) a semi-automatic sniper to give quick, accurate support for medium-long ranges.

That is what the snipers in normal infantry squads represent

As opposed to the Vindicare sniper which represents a military sniper sent out on a mission to assassinate, say.... Al-asad or whatever from that Call of Duty missions.

 
   
Made in us
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon




Between Alpha and Omega, and a little to the left

I always though that sniper weapons should have a +3 to hit (unless otherwise stated), representing the user taking his time to aim. and the pinning/Rending did make sense as stated before. Not so sure about that +4 to wound. i think that was added into for game play and is less grounded in fluff, since it's meant to be the long range version of a needle pistol.

"When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." C.S. Lewis
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Made in au
Devout Arch-Lector





Shas'O Dorian wrote:
sebster wrote:but that's how it works in the movies so that's how it works in 40k.

lol, no


Are you basing your interpretation of 40K rules on a detailed, simulation driven representation of modern warfare. 'Coz that's not going to work.

Kurt Vonnegut and novelist Joseph Heller were once allegedly at a party hosted by a billionaire hedge fund manager. Vonnegut mentioned that their wealthy host made more money in one day than Heller ever made from his novel Catch-22.

Heller responded: "Yes, but I have something he will never have: enough." 
   
Made in us
Homicidal Veteran Blood Angel Assault Marine





I always though that sniper weapons should have a +3 to hit (unless otherwise stated), representing the user taking his time to aim. and the pinning/Rending did make sense as stated before. Not so sure about that +4 to wound. i think that was added into for game play and is less grounded in fluff, since it's meant to be the long range version of a needle pistol.


I never quite liked the 4+ to wound either, I believe it should be something along the line of 3+ to wound against toughness 4 or below. And 4+ to wound above that. That would definitely make it more fair and realistic (if you can hardly christen 40k realism). The 6+ should stay as is, and the same with BS.

Sometimes however the 4+ wound just seems underpowered.

The fact that 90% of the units that have a sniper weapon have BS3 (Guardsmen, Scouts, etc.) it means they'll need two 4's in a row to get a wound. That means roughly 25% of the shots MIGHT wound, because even then, unless it's an orc, they'll still get an armor save 2/3 of the times you wound.

overall the fact that you might have only a few snipers at any one time means that you'll have a very low chance of getting a wound at all. Overall not a very good representation of a sniper rifle at all.

 
   
Made in us
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!





California

I would like to see it like this

1. You choose your BS for the round.

If you choose BS 5 the round counts as AP5 (Any body part)

If you choose BS 4 the round counts as AP4 (Torso shot)

If you choose BS 3 the round counts as AP3 (Head/chest shot)

If you choose BS 2 the round counts as AP2 (Head shot)

That would reflect the skill and difficulty of the shot. Each turn before shooting you declare the type of shot you will be shooting.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/03/27 07:59:08


 
   
Made in au
Iron Fang




Sydney , Australia

I think they are fine as they are but +1 to BS would nice and make Marine Scouts armed with them a really nice proposition .



 
   
Made in us
Homicidal Veteran Blood Angel Assault Marine





yeh... the BS/AP idea is kinda weak...


The AP represents how strong the weapon can penetrate things.


The rending represents getting a lucky shot. That's why Eldar Pathfinders rend on a 5 or a 6 because they're such good shots.

The Vindicare rifle already has AP2 because he is such a good shot and has such good weaponry (although I believe it should have a better chance to weapon) not because he is taking 'special shots'.

 
   
Made in ca
Rough Rider with Boomstick





Ontario

It should be similar to the AP/BS thing, but instead should be BS/Wound.
(Copied from above)

If you choose BS 5 the round counts as 5+ wound

If you choose BS 4 the round counts as 4+ wound

If you choose BS 3 the round counts as 3+ wound

If you choose BS 2 the round counts as 2+ wound

If you choose BS 1 the round counts as Instant wound

On vehicles, (ALL RENDING)

If you choose BS 5 the round counts as S3

If you choose BS 4 the round counts as S4

If you choose BS 3 the round counts as S5

If you choose BS 2 the round counts as S6

If you choose BS 1 the round counts as S7

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/03/28 04:39:47


I have 2000 points of , called the Crimson Leaves.
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Made in au
Devout Arch-Lector





hyperviper6 wrote:I would like to see it like this

1. You choose your BS for the round.

If you choose BS 5 the round counts as AP5 (Any body part)

If you choose BS 4 the round counts as AP4 (Torso shot)

If you choose BS 3 the round counts as AP3 (Head/chest shot)

If you choose BS 2 the round counts as AP2 (Head shot)

That would reflect the skill and difficulty of the shot. Each turn before shooting you declare the type of shot you will be shooting.


The optimum choice from the above would be whatever removes the target's armour save, if there's no cover. If there is 4+ cover, then it means the optimum shot will be AP5 unless the target is in 2+ armour in which case you take the AP2 shot. It's just adding an extra level of complexity without introducing any complexity to strategy.

The ability of a sniper to sometimes bypass armour and score a critical hit is neatly represented by the rending rule as it is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
JSK-Fox wrote:It should be similar to the AP/BS thing, but instead should be BS/Wound.
(Copied from above)

If you choose BS 5 the round counts as 5+ wound

If you choose BS 4 the round counts as 4+ wound

If you choose BS 3 the round counts as 3+ wound

If you choose BS 2 the round counts as 2+ wound

If you choose BS 1 the round counts as Instant wound


BS 4, 4+ wound and BS 3, 3+ wound are mathematically identical (do you want to roll the 4+ first or the 3+ first?), and the other options are sub-optimal and would never be chosen.


I think people are looking at this from the wrong angle - how do I simulate a sniper deciding to go for an easy shot or a hard shot? That's not a level of detail the commander of the battle group is going to care about, and that's the level 40K operates at. If you want to play with the rules you should look at playing with them to make the unit an interesting tactical element for an army, not a sub-game of their own.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/03/29 07:22:51


Kurt Vonnegut and novelist Joseph Heller were once allegedly at a party hosted by a billionaire hedge fund manager. Vonnegut mentioned that their wealthy host made more money in one day than Heller ever made from his novel Catch-22.

Heller responded: "Yes, but I have something he will never have: enough." 
   
Made in au
Courageous Questing Knight






Australia

Shas'O Dorian wrote:2+ to hit, no. Space marines have trained for centuries & fought just as much yet are only BS4. Perhaps let sniper rifles confer +1 BS.

Yes have stealth, no from gone-to-ground, it's a blatant rules contradiction and may confuse people.

Yes


stealing my ideas now? I thought I was a spam-jockey.

Lan, please improove your typing. it is difficult to read, and frankly, unecesary.

I've already had a good post-up (and a rather nice argument) about this.

have a look for it.


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Made in us
Ancient Chaos Terminator






Not everybody with a sniper rifle is a sniper. Sometimes a sniper rifle is attached to a squad.

Most 40k units of snipers are already stealthy. Ratlings and pathfinders have the stealth universal special rule built into them, and space marine scouts have the option to buy cammo cloaks to go along with their sniper rifles.

The rules are good as they are. The only thing I would advocate changing is the addition of spotters in sniper/spotter teams. The rules would be very simple. Treat them like a 2 wound IG heavy weapons team that has a twin linked sniper rifle, as having a spotter would give the sniper a re roll to hit.

Chaos isn’t a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail, and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some are given a chance to climb, but refuse. They cling to the realm, or love, or the gods…illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is, but they’ll never know this. Not until it’s too late.


 
   
Made in us
Nigel Stillman





Austin, TX and Mission Viejo, CA

Captain Solon wrote:
Shas'O Dorian wrote:2+ to hit, no. Space marines have trained for centuries & fought just as much yet are only BS4. Perhaps let sniper rifles confer +1 BS.

Yes have stealth, no from gone-to-ground, it's a blatant rules contradiction and may confuse people.

Yes


stealing my ideas now? I thought I was a spam-jockey.

Lan, please improove your typing. it is difficult to read, and frankly, unecesary.

I've already had a good post-up (and a rather nice argument) about this.

have a look for it.



If you're going to insult people for their spelling errors perhaps it would be a good idea to fix your own first.

-Vlad

P.S. No-one is stealing -your- ideas.

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Made in ie
Choirboy




Shadden ur idea is good i'd love to be able to get a IG spotter

or

have the same rules as the vindicare assassination execution force apocalypse datasheet
its just an extension of the pinning rule but you need 3+ assassins/snipers firing at the same unit and any units(up to as many snipers are shooting) that have LOS to the target unit have to take a pinning test

 
   
Made in au
Devout Arch-Lector





schadenfreude wrote:Not everybody with a sniper rifle is a sniper. Sometimes a sniper rifle is attached to a squad.

Most 40k units of snipers are already stealthy. Ratlings and pathfinders have the stealth universal special rule built into them, and space marine scouts have the option to buy cammo cloaks to go along with their sniper rifles.

The rules are good as they are. The only thing I would advocate changing is the addition of spotters in sniper/spotter teams. The rules would be very simple. Treat them like a 2 wound IG heavy weapons team that has a twin linked sniper rifle, as having a spotter would give the sniper a re roll to hit.


A spotter would be help in identifying key targets, wouldn't he? So a unit with a spotter could allow you to pick out officers and heavy weapons dudes as your target.

Kurt Vonnegut and novelist Joseph Heller were once allegedly at a party hosted by a billionaire hedge fund manager. Vonnegut mentioned that their wealthy host made more money in one day than Heller ever made from his novel Catch-22.

Heller responded: "Yes, but I have something he will never have: enough." 
   
Made in gb
Blood-Raging Khorne Berserker






grayspark wrote:Sometimes however the 4+ wound just seems underpowered.

The fact that 90% of the units that have a sniper weapon have BS3 (Guardsmen, Scouts, etc.) it means they'll need two 4's in a row to get a wound. That means roughly 25% of the shots MIGHT wound, because even then, unless it's an orc, they'll still get an armor save 2/3 of the times you wound.

overall the fact that you might have only a few snipers at any one time means that you'll have a very low chance of getting a wound at all. Overall not a very good representation of a sniper rifle at all.


I don't understand where the idea has come from that sniper rifles should be so good. ~25% chance to put a wounding hit on a wraithlord by a grunt is already pretty fantastic. I you want easy to hit, high power, armour-piercing, tank-busting boom-cannons you need to come up with a new unit of pseudo-assassins. You could have all the infiltrating and head-shotting fluff you need and pay a hefty chunk of points.

The bonuses a gaurdsman gets for their years of training are in being able to hurt any toughness and to get a lucky rend.

Finally, to be fair to Solon, this has been done (far too much and recently). At first I even suspected this might be a dupe account. [shiftyeyedorkicon]

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/03/30 14:12:12


 
   
Made in au
Devout Arch-Lector





Soup and a roll wrote:I don't understand where the idea has come from that sniper rifles should be so good.


It comes from the same place that always gives katanas and magnums really good stats - we geeks latch on to cool weapons and a sniper rifles fits that perfectly. As a result people seek to make sniper rifles more effective.

When this is done in a self-knowing, stylised way like rapid1903's special rules it can work really well. When it ends up being 'sniper rifles are awesome and therefore better than the current rules therefore they must be made better' you've got a problem.

Kurt Vonnegut and novelist Joseph Heller were once allegedly at a party hosted by a billionaire hedge fund manager. Vonnegut mentioned that their wealthy host made more money in one day than Heller ever made from his novel Catch-22.

Heller responded: "Yes, but I have something he will never have: enough." 
   
Made in us
Morbid Black Knight






Solon: I know you posted about this before. I probably found that idea in the post. I'm not going to search every post I've ever made & make sure I cite where I remember the idea from. This is proposed rules, chances are a lot of what is said has been said before. If you don't want people "stealing" your ideas, go get a copy right. I never claimed it was mine (or anyone elses) and at the end of the day, who really cares who came up with it first. Even if GW adopts that change they won't give you or even the site credit for the idea, It's just an internet discussion forum. . .

Sebster: I agree on all counts

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/03/30 19:37:29


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