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Posted By carmachu on 11/14/2006 5:25 PM
Playtesting with friends is a completely different animal than using different color marines as counts as.....

The issue with different color marines is that in many a case those colors allow the usage of a special character.  If you using a DiY chapter that uses a special character but has diff traits than the main chapter yea I have issues.  Crap, I could say Im a Grey Knights successor and use grand master stern as my HQ choice with his retinue.

If you want to play a special character, use a certain item more than once, paint it/model it.  It is pretty insulting to your opponent who has spent money and taken time to paint/model it.

personally I agree with Hellfury, counts as is much better than WYSIWYG as people who only play armies like that can get annoying and need to get out more. I have seen some awsome counts as armies. As for special charactors use them if you want but say A dark angel player used Ragnar as one of there captains that would annoy me. The skirt wearing ninnies are now cloning the proud sons of RUss.

Does anybody remeber the cardboard cutout ork dred from the 3rd edition box set? I will make my own marine cardboard dreds soon just for a laff/

Posted By moosifer on 11/14/2006 7:55 PM

Posted By carmachu on 11/14/2006 5:25 PM
Playtesting with friends is a completely different animal than using different color marines as counts as.....

The issue with different color marines is that in many a case those colors allow the usage of a special character.  If you using a DiY chapter that uses a special character but has diff traits than the main chapter yea I have issues.  Crap, I could say Im a Grey Knights successor and use grand master stern as my HQ choice with his retinue.

If you want to play a special character, use a certain item more than once, paint it/model it.  It is pretty insulting to your opponent who has spent money and taken time to paint/model it.

In short, the traits system is useless then, since you can use whatever the best Marine rules systems are and counts your army as. And special characters are not so special.

"In short, the traits system is useless then, since you can use whatever the best Marine rules systems are and counts your army as."

Not so. In fact, I will go so far to say that that whole line of thinking is bull manure. This isnt pick and choose day at your local Kmart. You dont use the character lysander then proceed to use BA death company rules and then become stubborn at the same time.

You use a set of rules, you stick with it.

Color of an army is completely irrelevent to what is being played.

Show me where the RAW is on color schemes and I will finally shut up.

Until then, I will proceed to not only use "count as", I will fully promote it when and where I can so that people like you can become angered over creativity.

Besides, how are the lysander rules the "best Marine rules system"?

Posted By Hellfury on 11/14/2006 9:59 PM

Besides, how are the lysander rules the "best Marine rules system"?

Because when you drop 20-30 yellow Terminators on your opponent in one turn it makes them feel like they're being pissed on.

Lysander is like the R Kelly of Space Marines.

Posted By beef on 11/14/2006 8:58 PM
Does anybody remeber the cardboard cutout ork dred from the 3rd edition box set? I will make my own marine cardboard dreds soon just for a laff/

Yep.  Note in EPIC both DE and Necrons have cutouts for their models, altough people tend to proxy/convert them.

Posted By Hellfury on 11/14/2006 9:59 PM
"In short, the traits system is useless then, since you can use whatever the best Marine rules systems are and counts your army as."

Not so. In fact, I will go so far to say that that whole line of thinking is bull manure. This isnt pick and choose day at your local Kmart. You dont use the character lysander then proceed to use BA death company rules and then become stubborn at the same time.

You use a set of rules, you stick with it.

Color of an army is completely irrelevent to what is being played.

Show me where the RAW is on color schemes and I will finally shut up.

Until then, I will proceed to not only use "count as", I will fully promote it when and where I can so that people like you can become angered over creativity.

Besides, how are the lysander rules the "best Marine rules system"?

   I agree with you Hellfury, there really is no rule stating that you need to paint DiY Successor chapters a certain way.  While I dont care about the painting (other than some semblence of conformity), if you are going to be using a Special Character in a successor chapter, use the same traits as the founding chapter. 

I was not point out using Lysander with a BA Army, because well that is silly.  What I am sayin is that since IF do not have their own stand-alone codex, they are in the Codex using the trait system.  It would be very cheesey and unsportsmanslike to create a IF successor chapter, that uses lysander and the rules associated with him, to have the traits (minus the bloodrage) of the BA's.  It just seems as though as a player, doing something like this proves that you dont like the actual army your "character" is from, but want the character so you use the "Successor Chapter" phrase to justify the usage of the special rules.

I personally don't do it.  I have a 3rd founding chapter, of unknown origin (ala blood ravens), who have all regular characters, but I use an Ezzekial Model for my master librarian.  I filed off all the DA stuff so you cannot tell it was him, I just enjoy the model.  It is the people who use special characters, lysander for example, decked out in full IF insignia and played in a successor.  I could care less if you used his rules and called him Pinky the Destroyer, as long as you got rid of the stuff associating him from the IF chapter

I don't think anyone is advocating using different traits for different squads, or using a special character without the special rules (Including traits) of the army he's supposed to be from.

Personally, the Desert Wolves (My personal chapter) has different traits for each of the 13 companies in it. I have no problem with a person using a different colored marine army than normal. Heck, I play a guy regularly that uses Ultramarine colored units with traits.

Did you bother readin hellfury BEFORE my post?

He playtested the army with bases/proxies with FRIENDS, people who agreed to be ginea pigs for him BEFORE he went and spent the money and did it up WYSIWYG.

Again proxying and playtesting something with friends is a different animal than playing ultramarines as blood angels. If your circle of 3-4 guys lets you test and proxy and army before you invest in it, and do it up right, its different than playing ultramarines as ironwarriors but not doing it up properly. The former is ok for a handful of games as a test run, with consent, the later is unacceptable.

So far there isnt. The only thing we've seen is Jeff Hall's ruling on it for tournments.

carmachu: I have ZERO issue with play testing with friends, but at what point does it stop becoming play testing? I will say again, painting your own chapter colors is fine, using a frackin rainbow color is fine, as long as if you use a special character from a certain chapter, you use those traits (ala codexA,BA or codex:space marines)

 

Edit:  Please also consider that not everyone has friends that play the game.  I dont have any in the area so I have to goto a store and play the same kids every week, so after seeing proxy after proxy after proxy with no attempt to purchase and paint, my view tends to be a bit skewed

Sometimes people tend to proxy stuff for over a year and you think get a job and get some real models But hey its there hobby, If anybody is really annoyed about it dont play them. I have kids at my local store who play with marines in all colours, they have no semblance of unity with arms falling of so you dont even know what weapons they have and you know the kids cheat with stuff like "oh he has a powerfist" but Its supposed to be FUN and I have fun with the cheating little punks. If people have such hang ups about proxy and stuff dont play the opponent and also maybe its time to look at other hobbies. Some people have a really carefree approach to gaming which is good while others are to interested in RAW and WYSIWYG and can be very anal.

But as I said, at what point should you be ponying up to purchase the items that you have been proxying. I have paid in full for what I have, why should i go up against an army of nothing (ie bases with writing on them) instead of fighting a real army? You are right this is a hobby, and no I should not have to look at another hobby. Why? Because I have the finances to be able to afford the goods. It is not I who should be looking for another hobby, but those who refuse to shell out the money after trying it out (3 or 4 games proxying army/list).

This is getting away from the original topic.

The question isn't about is it OK to proxy models in games where you don't know your opponent personally.

The question is about use of "Counts As" for a serious army.

Lets say you're going to one of them newfangled Grand Tournaments they're going to run in 2007. And you come against the following:

1) Hellfuy's Lysander Wing army. It follows all rules and traits of the Imperial Fists army as well as all the rules for Lysander, but they're not painted yellow. All squads are fully painted and marked, and all equipment is clearly represented on all the models. He points out before the game that he is playing an Imperial Fists army with Lysander.

Would you dock his Painting/Sport/Composition Scores after playing it?

2.) My own Ultramarine Army with Traits. It follows all the rules and restrictions laid down in the trait system and does not use any Ultramarine specific units or wargear, but it is painted and marked with Ultramarine colors and Symbols and all equipment is clearly represented on all the models. Before the game I mention that it is using the traits rules and does not contain any UM specific items.

Would you dock my Painting/Sport/Composition Scores after playing it?

If you answered yes to either question, explain what your justification is for doing so.

And FYI, #2 was specifically answered as something that was acceptable for use at the coming US GT's (thanks Jeff!).

To #1: Point of Clairfication (Since i dont have codex at work)- In Lysanders entry does it say "Can only be used in an Imperial Fist Army of 1,500 points or more"?  If that is the case the I would give him give him up to full points for painting (ie a 1 for black spraypaint and nothing else or max for amazingly detailed work), half of what I would normally give for sportmanship (it is poor sportmanship to use a special character that specifically says X army and paint them totally different scheme since it is clearly defined as to what colors certain chapters are), and half for comp (since composition in my book is not only the list but how well you stuck to the army itself)

To #2:  Full for everything, because you painted the army as it appears in numerous sourcebooks.

The correct answers:

1. Full points, but use moosifer's reasons to dock you if I lose.

2. Full points, but use moosifer's reasons from 1 to dock you if I lose.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 11/15/2006 9:43 AM
This is getting away from the original topic.

The question isn't about is it OK to proxy models in games where you don't know your opponent personally.

The question is about use of "Counts As" for a serious army.

Lets say you're going to one of them newfangled Grand Tournaments they're going to run in 2007. And you come against the following:

1) Hellfuy's Lysander Wing army. It follows all rules and traits of the Imperial Fists army as well as all the rules for Lysander, but they're not painted yellow. All squads are fully painted and marked, and all equipment is clearly represented on all the models. He points out before the game that he is playing an Imperial Fists army with Lysander.

Would you dock his Painting/Sport/Composition Scores after playing it?

******I'd salute them for getting rid of that godawful yellow. 

2.) My own Ultramarine Army with Traits. It follows all the rules and restrictions laid down in the trait system and does not use any Ultramarine specific units or wargear, but it is painted and marked with Ultramarine colors and Symbols and all equipment is clearly represented on all the models. Before the game I mention that it is using the traits rules and does not contain any UM specific items.

Would you dock my Painting/Sport/Composition Scores after playing it?

****Nope.  I don't see the point in that.  But I'm a mellow fellow.  I'd just treat it as a successor chapter that got a little funky.  Actually I'd probably be thinking "how come I can't paint like that? Oh man he's got drop pods I'm toast. Wish I had some more coffee..."     Edit: I'd have a slight issue if you played different codex rules - ie your UM were playing BA rules.  Thats a tinge close to manipulation, but even then I wouldn't care once we started, ESPECIALLY if it were a good paint job/conversions, which is what I would be interested in.

Posted By stonefox on 11/15/2006 11:28 AM
The correct answers:

1. Full points, but use moosifer's reasons to dock you if I lose.

2. Full points, but use moosifer's reasons from 1 to dock you if I lose.

Sad but true in alot of cases...

UNFORTUNATLY ALOT OF TOURNIE ORGANISER "RESERVE THE RIGHT OF ADMISSION", rESERVE THE RIGHT TO BE Donkeys" and reserve the right "to not really know the rules but there desision is final".

therefore it would depend intirly on the judge. there should be no problem haveing a different coloured IF army. I played in a tournie against a guy that BA models but was using SW rules. I had no problem with it as he explained this before the game. I f however he failed to mention that before the game and mentioned it midway he would have gotten a smack. also if half way his models started Blood raging etc then he would have gotten another smack as he is supposed to be using SW rules not BA as well.

Posted By beef on 11/15/2006 1:04 PM
   therefore it would depend intirly on the judge. there should be no problem haveing a different coloured IF army. I played in a tournie against a guy that BA models but was using SW rules. I had no problem with it as he explained this before the game. I f however he failed to mention that before the game and mentioned it midway he would have gotten a smack. also if half way his models started Blood raging etc then he would have gotten another smack as he is supposed to be using SW rules not BA as well.

  Isnt that why models are painted/modeled a certain way?  To AVOID any issues that might come up?

Posted By moosifer on 11/15/2006 1:09 PM

  Isnt that why models are painted/modeled a certain way?  To AVOID any issues that might come up?

Do you play any games with actual, mature people? Note, mature isn't an age, as I've used my generic DIY legion in games against kids at the LFGS who had zero problem understanding (and being happy with) that the well painted gray figures before them that were Vanilla marines yesterday are Dark Angels today and may be trait marines tomorrow. And not care and had a blast playing an old fart. On the other hand, that store's TFG and the most un-fun, anal retentive rules lawyering bufoon (that doesn't even know the rules), is in his forties and more immature than all of CCG munchikins that occasionally would sweep in.

The point is, COMMUNICATION is part of the game. When a generic army, for all intents and purposes is modeled and equiped EXACTLY ALIKE one of the named chapters, all except for color, what is the problem again? Even when they aren't exactly alike, such as some of the awesome award winning armies seen in GT's (ie: the Undead Guard, or Eric Hagen's rad VC that used a lot of converted orks), it doesn't take a genius to figure out what is what. And if you're new? Tell your opponent, most will be very happy to let you know what is what and remind you if you forget.

People that have problems with this simply seem to be crying sour grapes or, when it comes to docking sports/comp/painting in tourneys, using anything to make up for their own inadequacies. Pretty sad, IMNSHO.

I'm glad to see that most people here are relaxed, and understand that this is a game. The more varied army types that you can play with one set of miniatures, the more fun you will have.

As for all you ultra-capitalists who are whining that "I succeeded and I make money, so I'm too stuck-up to play anyone who isn't wealthy enough to do the same":

I really hope that the company you are working for (or your parents work for) is the next Enron, and your pensions are stolen by your bosses to finance their mistresses and land purchases. And that you have to sell off your perfectly colour-matched plasmagun marines to that 14 year old at the store for a dollar each, so you don't end up strolling the corner downtown and really working for a living.

You'll be the first against the wall when the revolucion comes!

Dakka dakka indeed.

Pass the lego and cardboard cutouts,

It is pointless to discuss a valid/legitimate point with people who scream "elitest/capitalist".

Strangelooper:  Am I stuck up?  To you, a 14 y/o who needs his mommy to drive him to the store, I sure am.  Because I expect people who play a list to own what they are playing?  Because I dont want to have someone put down an entire army of Blood Angels and say "OO they are all Space Wolves" and then have no documentation for it?

I dont expect everyone who plays to have capital to field every army they want to play.  I dont even expect them to play the army they portray as a matter of play testing.  What I do expect is that after some trying out, they go out and buy/paint they army they are using.  It is not difficult, if you cannot pay to create the army of the week for yourself, dont play it.

I want a porsche, real bad because it looks cool, but I cant afford it.  Do I tell everyone I own a porsche and say that my car is one despite the fact it is not?  Hell no, just because I want my car to be a porsche does not make it a porsche.

Lrn2capitalism

Well, if its not painted like a porsche, then it obviously isnt a porsche. Evidentally...

If you say the car is a porsche who is to say you are wrong? its your car after all/
Most Stores have at lest on anal rules lawyer with pristine models. whenI was younger I could not afford to play 40k as my allowance was not enough to get an army. now that I am older I just williy nilly buy titans just for the sake of it.

My point Is I dont hold it against people who do not have the money to invest in different armies. If I total up the money spent on various armies I have had over the years It would give me a heart attack. I should have just used proxy models untill I was happy with a certain army then bought it instead of buying the army not liking it then wasting more money on another army and so on so forth.

REMEMBER its "your" hobby, Its supposed to be a fun thing to do, why get stressed that someone is playing with lego blocks and empty bases. Who cares? Frankly as long as they know how to play why would that detract from your enjoyment?

As i keep saying, I dont hold it against people if it is not painted the right color or modeled right for the first few times. I, like you beef, have spent much more money than I should have on models/armies i wasnt happy with. The issue I have is that when a temporary solution becomes more of a permanent solution. Making no effort to model/paint this list you play is just plain lazy.

As to special characters, if you using lysander in your DiY chapter that is suppose to be successor but in actually has the traits of a totally different chapter, then yes I would not care to play it. Special Characters are meant to be played for the armies that they are created for, not a mix and match.

Posted By moosifer on 11/15/2006 6:39 PM
As to special characters, if you using lysander in your DiY chapter that is suppose to be successor but in actually has the traits of a totally different chapter, then yes I would not care to play it. Special Characters are meant to be played for the armies that they are created for, not a mix and match.

This is NOT what we're talking about though.

We're talking about Lysander being used in an army that uses all the rules for the Imperial Fists.  The only thing that's different is that the models don't have a yellow paint scheme. 

Rules wise there is zero difference between the army Hellfury uses and a "normal" imperial fists army is the color sheme.

He's not cheating, heck he's still using Marines that look the same as a normal IF army, all he doesn't want to do is paint them yellow.   Honestly, what's the problem?

Seriously, how many times do we have to ask what is the problem of using an army that is modeled to be armed, equipped and organized EXACTLY LIKE a named chapter, but isn't painted in that chapter's color? Can you, anyone, answer this without ridiculous hyperbole and disingenuous arguments that have nothing to do with this point?

Moose: Actually I was 14 before Rogue Trader came out. And no, I don't need anyone to drive me to the store. I do not own a car, nor will I ever own a car unless I end up living outside an urban metropolis some day (shudder...). But I cycle/walk/transit anywhere I need to go. I don't believe in needlessly spending money on what is ultimately a symbol of economic class and social status.

Which brings me to 40k $$ snobs: "If you cannot pay for the army you want to play, don't play it" - Hmmm...yes, you *are* stuck-up.

I'm glad that I will never be unfortunate enough to play the likes of you.

Up against the wall!!!

Oh, and uh...
IN BEFORE LOCK!!!