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Posted By Moopy on 08/02/2007 12:49 PM
While Mephiston is nasty, he's still rather vulnerable.  No invo save for your Chapter Master?? Wha?  You'd have figured that he would have at least gotten a 5+.  Note that his gaze only works with folks in btb with him.  That means anyone in the 2nd/3rd are free to pound away; orks, put your nobs there.  Any rending unit like Stealers or Blood Letters, mobs or ork choppas and Demoneets will work him over.

Well, Bloodletters and Daemonettes won't exist after September's Chaos codex, so that's two less rending units to worry about   It *is* pretty silly to have a chapter master with no invo save though.

Obligatory on-topic comments on the codex:

Layout: irritating
Fixed number squads:  deal with it, I play IG and we've always had fixed number squads.
Reduced options:  clearer than using an armory, really.  Not much argument there.
General trend of 'balanced' less-option-y codices:  Could make the game more balanced and playable.  Hey, for a real tactical game there's always Warmachine

I really don't like how Assault Squads are troops. Despite the DC and SHP's, the Blood Angels are a Codex Chapter, and therefore only have 2 Assault Squads per company. They have Vet Assault Squads, and that's fine, but they should have the same amount of regular Assault Troops as every other Codex chapter out there.

And I hate that, once again, they've done a rules cop-out with the DC and just decided to 'fix' them by giving them rending. It seems as though whenever you want to fix a unit, you give it rending. And can anyone explain to me why the Death Company, who are crazy and uncontrollable by nature, seem to be more stable than Possessed, who will be rolling randomly for their powers come the end of August?

BYE

Mephiston isn't a chapter master, and the librarians in both DA and BA do not have Inv saves unless in terminator armour. They become paper tigers and less combat machines at that point. I do like the fact that certain HQ options give you different benefits, and there is no real kneejerk must have HQ unit. They all compete now.

With the removal of 1+ and 0-1 in army books, Scouts would have to be moved somewhere else or people would take the min two they needed and move on. Yes, there is a lot they could have done, they just didn't. I rarely every use scouts, so I can't really say much about it, doesn't affect me.

I like combat squads, as I have hated the min/maxing of marine units, but escalation does make it a hard decision. If they would have allowed you to split squads even from reserves it would make more sense, but right now it's hard to plan ahead.

Options that were too good and always used were upped in price. Some maybe too much (Plasma), but only time and playing games will tell. And only when the codexes are all somewhat balanced. Otherwise there is no way to tell if it is good or not.

Power specific daemons come back in the next dex, geesh. I thought the Eldar players were bad.

Checkers is tactical, and the only options you have are to choose red or black..

DC are crazy and uncontrollable, and infused with godly power. Rending fits, and isn't as bad as all the powerfists and weapons that came before. Kisses have always fit the rending profile. I don't see much of a problem with it.

This is like the DA fights all over again. I better leave now...

Ozymandias, King of Kings

One more issue with combat squads... how do you attach your commanders to them? Woops! 10 man rhino/dp are now full. 5 man drop pods and rhinos are... wasteful at best. Curbulo is awesome and... very hard to get to your front line unless you chose to have the half strength option.

I agree that combat squads suffer the drawback from escalation or any mission that forces you to start with the bulk of your army in reserve. There is at least one GT mission this year where you do start with the majority of your army held in reserve... it is the one that was unpopular in Las Vegas with attacker and defender. Combat squads do work well for Ravenwing bikes since they have the scout USR. I also agree that assault squads as a Troop choice for Blood Angels does not come across as following the fluff... too much like Space Wolves. However, if you do take 10 assault Marines as one unit and drop their jump packs for a rhino or drop pod then they cost less than a tactical squad with 10 Marines and a rhino or drop pod, and I think this has some value from an army building perspective. I still think the tactical squad is the better choice since they can rapid fire.

- G

Posted By Toreador on 08/02/2007 2:43 PM
With the removal of 1+ and 0-1 in army books, Scouts would have to be moved somewhere else or people would take the min two they needed and move on. Yes, there is a lot they could have done, they just didn't. I rarely every use scouts, so I can't really say much about it, doesn't affect me. 

What? I was under the impression most people like regular Marine squads. Why would someone cheap-out on two 5-man Scout units and then 'move on'.

That just seems absurd.

BYE

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 08/02/2007 6:03 PM

Posted By Toreador on 08/02/2007 2:43 PM
With the removal of 1+ and 0-1 in army books, Scouts would have to be moved somewhere else or people would take the min two they needed and move on. Yes, there is a lot they could have done, they just didn't. I rarely every use scouts, so I can't really say much about it, doesn't affect me. 

What? I was under the impression most people like regular Marine squads. Why would someone cheap-out on two 5-man Scout units and then 'move on'.

That just seems absurd.

BYE

People generally didn't like them if they had to take them with the Combat Squads rule.  Or if they're trying to do a "specialized" (read: powerful) list like Lysander Wing where Scouts work out better than Tac Marines for filling out your requisite 2 troop FOC slots.

That's really the main problem with the DA dex, there isn't a very efficient troops choice compared to what other lists can do.  And with BA, Assault Squads as troops are cool, but Vet Assault Squads are so much better it's sad, so the best troops choices for BA's is two 5 Man Assault Squads with a PF on the sarge, and the rest of the points go into DC, Vet Assault Squads, BAAL's or Dev's, and then Characters.

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 08/02/2007 2:28 PM
I really don't like how Assault Squads are troops. Despite the DC and SHP's, the Blood Angels are a Codex Chapter, and therefore only have 2 Assault Squads per company. They have Vet Assault Squads, and that's fine, but they should have the same amount of regular Assault Troops as every other Codex chapter out there.

  I don't see it as any worse than the Scout Squads as troops choices in the Space Marine Codex.  Hell, a codex chapter (generally) has a lot more Assault Marines than scouts anyway.  8 squads in the battle companies, plus ten in the 8th company. 

  Assault Marines as Troops allows Blood Angels players to field an 8th Co. army if they want, just as Scouts as Troops allows an Ultramarines player to field a 10th Co. army.  No big deal. 

Well I want to field a 9th Company Army.

Who would play me?

BYE

Having read the BA Codex... I love it. Marines that feel right to me. Want to min-max my squads? Buy more damn troops. We get a serious discount on marines 6-10 in these units, so use it! I like the combat squad option, and can totally see fire support Las/Plas in the back with mobs of little 5-man-plus-Fist units in the front - or even naked 5-bolter unit or two to act as speedbumps and chargebait for massive counter-rapid-fire or counter-charge.

Death Company scares the pants off of me, what an awesome unit. Rending Power Armour Jump Infantry with Feel No Pain and A4 on the charge? Yikes. That's nails. I can't wait to hear the complaints once that unit starts chowing whole armies.

I like it. I like the army design, I like the fact that Extra Armour is more appropriately priced, I like the fact that specifying options for each unit and character allows for balanced point costing (instead of a universal point cost in the armoury) per unit, character, or vehicle. I like that they're publishing lists in a quick format that doesn't require the printing of a new book. I like the way the cost of units actually starts to reflect value, and the way they are recognizing and fixing some of the nastiest list possibilities (like making AssCans more expensive on everything and restricting them to ONE per termi unit).

Remember back when rules for armies ALWAYS appeared in WD first, then got collected into a "Compendium"? Aka, the big Red book and the big Yellow book? It was great - I'd like to see more of it, because then we get faster army/rule mod releases, and then have time to playtest and show what's really broken with it in time for the annual compendium release to FIX things with the reprint (instead of being, say, stuck with a brokenly good Space Marine codex for at least 4 years or a brokenly bad Ork codex for, um, what... 9 years now?). How sickly cool would it be to get an Ork Codex in 4 monthly installments in White Dwarf - full of fluff and modeling articles and all the rules you need for new Orks, and then follow it up with a collection release in a Compendium at the end of the year with the most obviously broken/confusing/ugly things edited and/or removed thanks to all our awesome player feedback! Imagine a new Dark Eldar codex that doesn't need a massive minis release or anything else going along with it because that RULES publishing in WD drives WD subscriptions, drives new army building and adoption, drives better codices through more frequent revision.

HBMC: I would totally play you if you fielded a 9th company army. Especially using the revised Dev squad rules. You bring your 6 Dev Squads (at a cost of, oh, 255 pts per 5 marines with 4 lascannons) and a Company Commander. You might even have room for a Dreadnought in your points allotment, but not if you added ablative marines to the squads. 24 Marine Lascannons = 13 wounds on anything, or a dead first turn Falcon, sure... but what about the rest of the army you're facing? I daresay that C99s StealerShock or any infantry-based force would eat a 9th company army pretty well, though of course you'd do alright against Zilla or Mech Anything.

-JT

Posted By JTS1486 on 08/02/2007 10:38 PM
We get a serious discount on marines 6-10 in these units

-JT

No... we don't get any discount for buying the 2nd half of the combat squad (marine 6-10). Marines are 15pts a hit.  5 marines = 75pts. No discount.  The only reason the first 5 were higher was because of the DC and the vet sgt. And since for all intents and purposes the average BA now = the average generic marine, there's no reason not to cost the same.

So, no savings.

It is saving over buying a new 5 man squad, which is where the balance starts to come into play. You have to choose carefully what you take.

People like min/max marine squads. Without that, they generally take the cheapest fulfillment of troops and then max out on the other slots. Scouts were that cheap fulfillment.

I would actually like it, if GW "fixed" vet squads by giving their lasguns rending" but only if they kept the points low, and gave them all auto chameleon. 

Maybe rending will become so standard that their will be squads immune to rending?   Ive never understood what rending is supposed to represent anyways.

Moopy my boy, you miss the point entirely. Toreador gets it. Marines aren't 15 points per anymore... they're bought in batches. Your first batch has a high average cost per trooper, and the second batch is lower... even AFTER you buy your lascannon.

Don't confuse the way you USED to buy Marines with the way you ARE buying Marines. Doing that is living in the past and can only bring you pain. Through that lens, you're getting all those grenades effectively for "free" too... but what does that mean, really?

My point is that those of us who want to be highly competitive will still do ALL the math, and we will still min/max lists for points effectiveness. It's nice that this list both:
A) encourages full Troops choices by making them cheaper
B) encourages full Troops choices by giving them more weapon options
C) punishes min Troop army builds by making them more expensive
D) removes the cheap 2 5-man scout unit Troop option for army builds
...which means when we min/max our armies, we may end up with armies that look more like a lot of the fluff suggests. I'm mostly excited because it's an army list that seems to use some math to actually encourage and enable the designers intent, rather than hinder it as is normally the case with a GW codex.

I can vaguely remember a discussion on Dakka many years ago where it was suggested that if the game designers wanted to encourage 10-man Tac squads, they should give the squad a points discount if it was at a full 10 Marines. Well, they've done that, and it's cool by me.

-JTS

I agree with JTS. The new BA codex is a step in the right direction for how marines should play.

Capt K

I am not going to comment so much on the BA codex as I have not really messed with it much, and it seems to me there are more stand out choices. The BA codex though is loosely based on the DA codex, and this is what I have discovered with it.

All things in a vacuum, and besides whether or not you think DA are competitive, the list is nice.
It's what JTS noted. The way the DA codex is laid out, there are few stand out choices. Almost everything competes with another choice. Well, except dreads and land-raiders, but that is an overall problem. Do you get your las-cannons in your tac squads? Do you fill them out to get that heavy weapons, or do you buy it in the devestator squad for cheaper. Do you fill out the Dev squad to 10 men and break them into combat squads? Do you purchase a predator instead? Do you buy two 5 man assault squads, or do you buy 1 10 man that is cheaper? It really forces the look and feel of a marine army(IMHO) by the choices you have to take. If things could combat squad from reserves would make the list almost perfect to me.

...right, Toreador. And that's the kind of thing a GD can fix (splitting combat squads in Reserves) whilst leaving the rest of the list largely balanced.

Units that just scream "inferior!" or "superior!" are what leads to monotony. There's a reason Mech Eldar lists and Zilla lists look alike, though most would argue that the Nid and Eldar codex have the MOST range of variety available to them. It's because the number of choices available DOESN"T MATTER when we can do the math and discern the stupidly good choices from the stupidly bad.

Making a codex of all decent, well-costed, tradeoff style choices means more variety in army composition.

Posted By JTS1486 on 08/03/2007 11:06 AM
...right, Toreador. And that's the kind of thing a GD can fix (splitting combat squads in Reserves) whilst leaving the rest of the list largely balanced.

Units that just scream "inferior!" or "superior!" are what leads to monotony. There's a reason Mech Eldar lists and Zilla lists look alike, though most would argue that the Nid and Eldar codex have the MOST range of variety available to them. It's because the number of choices available DOESN"T MATTER when we can do the math and discern the stupidly good choices from the stupidly bad.

Making a codex of all decent, well-costed, tradeoff style choices means more variety in army composition.

Hey, is this Jervis???

Posted By davidson on 08/02/2007 2:21 AM

Posted By Ghaz on 08/01/2007 10:19 PM

But why are scouts elites?

Not because they're 'elite', but so you can't field what GW feels is an unfluffy all scout army.

Huh? Scouts are not elite, they are basic space marines in training. The 10th company of most space marine chapters is nothing but scouts.

you missed the point. reread that please. scouts aren't an elite unit, but they are "rarer" in full space marine companies, so just like other "rarer choices" scouts have been added to elite chart to limit their usage that is all.

10th company is also a reserve company and in history has never been fully deployed as a scout only army.... this company is always on the ready to replace fallen scouts and even replace veterans when the scouts have had enough experience ..

I would say with some minor tweaks both the eldar and zilla nid codexes would be there also. But that would require them "fixing" things. Which they tend to not do until a new dex comes out. Makes balancing things rather hard.

There are a lot of big differences between BA and DA... for instance, BA got more powerful special characters to choose from. As long as it does not involve bikes or terminators then anything DA can do BA can do better.

- G

Posted By two heads talking on 08/03/2007 12:18 PM

you missed the point. reread that please. scouts aren't an elite unit, but they are "rarer" in full space marine companies, so just like other "rarer choices" scouts have been added to elite chart to limit their usage that is all.

10th company is also a reserve company and in history has never been fully deployed as a scout only army.... this company is always on the ready to replace fallen scouts and even replace veterans when the scouts have had enough experience ..

No I understood your point I'm just very quick to dismiss it. 40k is big enough and the rules are there to do almost any type of sm army you want. If I want to do a new chapter that fields alot of scouts or the force is a forward army scouting out objectives for the rest of the force that will then be called in, that makes perfect sense. Or an all scout force in a 40k in 40 mins game,  etc.  And under the current SM codex you can do that.

DO NOT try to FORCE the fluff to match the rules because with these new books it doesn't work at all. Scouts have been a troop choice since RT I believe, there was no real fluff reason to change it now. Heck, the Blood Angels can field a better Ravenwing type army than the DA's can now! Care to try to explain why Attack bikes are so rare all of a sudden for the oldest chapter that da's cannot take an attack bike squad but BA can? It's not like the Ravenwing bikers are skilled riders anymore... they got rid of that too for no good reason.

There were no scouts in RT days. They were introduced with Advanced Space Crusade. The first lists never had them.

Without knowing what the future C:SM book looks like, it is hard to make a statement about what scouts will look like in the overall Space Marine picture. All we have to go off of is two Chapters of renown that may or may not be the same.

Attack bikes do not a Ravenwing make. Ravenwing have scouts, and combat squads, along with purchasing bikes, attack bikes and speeders as a single org choice, that is also 4 scoring units AND they can be fielded as troops. Sounds quite a bit like the Ravenwing to me. They are not a heavy assault force,... they are scouts.

I am curious to go head to head vs Blood Angels. The lists I have seen don't look too bad to deal with, other than those vet assault squads. Be curious to see.

You can still min/max blood angels no problem. Now, instead of at least having a fair amount of your points put into troops such as las/plas squads or scout squads for the "free" vet serg, you're simply going to have people taking two 5 man assault squads for 165 points with a PF. The rest of the army will be filled with stupidly good units like vet assault marines (which are so cheap compared to regular assault marines it is ridiculous) and death company. Add in 3 Baal Preds or something of that nature and you're good to go. Min/max blood angels will look nothing like the fluff intends them to. Instead, they will be an all jump pack army with some tanks or devastators.

I'll just maintain the view that Scouts are relegated to Elites because they function as an auxiliary force(as do terminators) to what makes up the bulk of a space marine chapter- power armored marines.

The wargear options for the various HQ entries could have been handled much better for both Blood Angels and Dark Angels.

Maybe I'm missing something in the new BA Codex, but it looks like that's exactly what you'll get. The BAs have two units (Vet Assault Squads and Honor Guard) which are incredible. Everything else is worthless by comparison.

The long and short of it is that Jervis managed to nerf the crap out of the list (which is somewhat appropriate), but in the process made the only strong option completely ovious. Load up on packs, fists, and take it at the enemy.



Opinions are opinions, but your opinion is as close to being wrong as an opinion can be. I mean, you're welcome to it, but seriously, re-read the codex. It's crap. Not crap like "it's nerfed, I can't win easy any more, boo hoo." Crap like it reduces choices, terribly imbalances the units relative to each other, strips even more uniqueness from the list.

Blood Angels should have Furious Charge and Black Rage. If it has to carry a cost increase, fine. Don't just strip the rules that differentiate them.



Uhhh... It was always an awesome unit. Only before it was an awesome unit that was extremely cheap and instead of Rending it had 2+ Power Fists. It always ate whole armies.

I can certainly understand if you think the part about being extremely cheap needed fixing (it did), but don't give me a pep rally about how strong they are. They were always strong, and before they were almost free. I'm not a friggin puppy, you can't take my ball, hide it under a blanket, then pull it back out to my utter amazement. I figured out object permanence sometime around 6 months of age.



I agree extra armor used to be undercosted. I also agree that localizing the options and costs to a given IC or unit allows for better fine tuning. But, really, these "improvements" happened in the Dark Angels codex before the BA codex, so it's not news. It's also minor. A change of 5 points in a wargear item, here and there, isn't going to make or break a list. It's when every Power Fist in the list costs 10 points more that things get annoying. It's when you can't get a Lascannon without spending another 90 points that things get annoying.

Also, if GW wants to start dumbing things down and simplifying the options available, they're turning that much more into a bad Warmachine imitation. A big part of the fun of GW's games is kitting out your HQ, your squad leaders, setting them up with special gear and customized options.



And the first batch comes with a Death Company model. The second batch doesn't. So, really it's 115 points for five Tac Marines and one of the models you think are so awesome that even mentioning them would distract me from noticing how crapbox this Codex is.

Since they appear to be standardizing the cost of a DC model at 30 points, the first 5 Marines are actually 85 points. That's 10 points more than the second 5. And the first five come with a Vet Sarge, which is 15 points for vanilla Marines. It could thus be argued that the first five are actually the better deal. To suggest that the second five have a "serious discount" is some Enron style accounting.

And all of this ignores the simple fact that people don't want Tactical Marines. They want Lascannons and Plasma Guns.

It speaks to fundamental flaws in GW's game design that the game has basically turned into a listbuilding struggle to pack heavy/special weapons into the list as cost effectively as possible. It's no suprise that their solution is to clumsily steal half the options for doing this, rather than actually getting a clue.



And you look at Vet Assault Squads and Honor Guard... And you look at Tactical squads that are less flexible and have everything upcosted... And you're psyched about Codex BA. This is why I say your opinion borders on simply being wrong. By your own metrics, this Codex sucks.



Exactly.

Posted By two heads talking on 08/03/2007 12:18 PM

10th company is also a reserve company and in history has never been fully deployed as a scout only army....

  I remember a batrep about a decade back with the entire Ultramarines 10th Co. deploying via Thunderhawk Gunships.  Can't quite recall who they were fighting against, though... 

And, HBMC, I'd fight your 9th company army.  Mind you, I don't think it would be very fun for you, standing and shooting every turn, and it might be desirable to increase the points cost on those devastators somehow (if a "balanced game" is what you're after).