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All of this is convincing me I need to finally paint that sisters army.

Wow, if these rumors are true then Zilla's did get boned as Ed said. I counted on massed Venom Cannon fire to destroy enemy vehicles and now that glancing hit's cannot destroy a vehicle like it use to kind of sucks.

It would seem to me that they want to turn the attention to the basic trooper, in which case I might jump ship and go for more warmachine/hordes.

I think other game companies out there should thank GW for helping boost their sales, cause I see more PP buys in the near future.

Just my 2 cents

Chappy P!

Chaplain Pallantide wrote:Wow, if these rumors are true then Zilla's did get boned as Ed said. I counted on massed Venom Cannon fire to destroy enemy vehicles and now that glancing hit's cannot destroy a vehicle like it use to kind of sucks.

It would seem to me that they want to turn the attention to the basic trooper, in which case I might jump ship and go for more warmachine/hordes.

That's not what's supposed to happen. You're supposed to buy a whole new set of Carnifexes and Hive Tyrants and equip them with different weapons load-outs under the new rules. Get with the program!

What weapon load out would help them? It seems to me that the only way nids can take down 'liths now is by somehow getting a CC carnifex into it in hand to hand. Which seems unlikely to happen, ever.
Are Zoanthropes S9 or 10?

As the rumours keep flying, I get more and more excited about 5th ed. I can't say I'm happy, because I have no clue what rumours are true, let alone what impact they'll have on my armies. Based on the rumours, however, it is clear that GW has at least some idea of what's wrong with the current environment.

That GW rights sub standard rules for 40k is well known, pretty well understood, and not likely to dramatically change. They are, however, still at least half assed about the job. Speeders were too good, so they got nerfed. Transports sucked too bad, so they got boosted. Tanks were weak, so they get a cover save and a new damage chart. Infantry are too slow, they get forced march.

Looking at the Ork book, I'm not sure they haven't created a monster, but it's perhaps not totally out of line to cut GW at least some slack. Every set of rules pisses somebody off: the only way to balance things is to nerf the good things and boost the weak things, and if you play something good or against something weak, yeah, you're going to be pissed when the change comes.

Given it's unwillingness to adequetly playtest (and I mean seriously, competitively playtest), GW should do the next best thing: new editions and/or updates, with the hobby as a whole testing the rules.

I'm suprised HBMC hasn't plugged his alternative ruleset in this thread, but he's got a valid point. If you want the game to stay static, then pick a ruleset, tweak it with your friends, and play it. I know that I personally like change.

I've heard mention that units remain scoring until they get below 25% casualties, not the 50% we currently have. I'm not making this up, but it is definitly a rumor from people who sometimes have access to such things.

Chaplain Pallantide wrote:Wow, if these rumors are true then Zilla's did get boned as Ed said.

Anything that bones Godzilla nids is a wonderful thing.

if the nids had any other way to pop tanks reliably I would agree

Any nid army starts with two or three gunfexes -- without them the army is a cruel joke.

Oh, and yes, I'm sure many of the rules changes are designed to sell more models. How horrible of GW! I mean, it sucks for us as consumers, but it's what any publicly held corporation has to do to make money, which is it's job. It's like saying a Baseball team only signed a big free agent to sell more jerseys, or an employee only works harder because they want a raise.

On the other hand, GW making money and being a large gaming company means that we get pretty good support for tournaments (though far less than I'd like), consistently high quality minis (Rackham were better, but apparently imploded), a strong network of gaming stores with play space and helpful, if dreadfully annoying, staff.

I remember in 95, when Middle Earth: the Wizards was released as a CCG. Unlike Star Wars, which only used the first half of A new Hope for it's main set, dragging the fans through years of expansions, ME:TW included every character, monster, and Item you'd want in the very first set. This was great for gamers: collect one set full of good stuff, and you'll never need to buy more! Unfortunatly, you never needed to buy more. The later expansions were interesting, but on the whole very unnecessary. Because the core of the game never changed, interest dwindled in a hurry.

Sure, it'd be great if GW released a rule set that was perfectly balanced, a line of codices that were evenly strong and interesting, and a model for every option in every codex. And then, GW would be reduced to 3 guys writing campaigns and Codex: Apocolypse 2: "This time, it's personal" for the 15 gamers still playing in their basement.

Feeding the beast is the price we pay. If you really think the rules and models you buy from PP will remain legal and competitive in 3 years, I think you might be a bit disappointed. Planned obsolence is the cynical beating heart of a consumer culture.

Longshot wrote:if the nids had any other way to pop tanks reliably I would agree

Any nid army starts with two or three gunfexes -- without them the army is a cruel joke.

Well, part of me wonders if Nidzilla having a weakness wouldn't be a bad thing. There's currently not much it really fears, so having an inability of destroying (While still stunning, disarming and imobilizing) tanks might not be the end of the world.

Also, how many tanks do Nids actually fear?

After shooting and wounding, you can choose to become pinned. You get a +1 to cover save (or a 6+ if you're in the open). It's the "get down!" rule.

wow this should make things intresting ? are you pinned till you next turn or for a full turn ? now my IG can run out rapid fire take cover and have a Inv. save

Polonius wrote:I remember in 95, when Middle Earth: the Wizards was released as a CCG. Unlike Star Wars, which only used the first half of A new Hope for it's main set, dragging the fans through years of expansions, ME:TW included every character, monster, and Item you'd want in the very first set. This was great for gamers: collect one set full of good stuff, and you'll never need to buy more! Unfortunatly, you never needed to buy more. The later expansions were interesting, but on the whole very unnecessary. Because the core of the game never changed, interest dwindled in a hurry.

Non-collectible card games have been extremely successful for decades - Bang! is doing extremely well, so does Citadels, Apples to Apples and others. Players just own multiple games and many people who don't buy CCG's have a copy of Uno in the house.

Similarly, WotC already sells collectible minis using the CCG model. Warhammer is different in terms that the consumer gets to choose what they buy. Removing that (by changing the rules constantly) lessens the whole point of the hobby - being able to design, collect, paint and play with your own army.

It would make more sense to me to have solid rules that are fun to play. That would sustain interest (rather than having 80% of players leave within 2 years as GW says is the case). Instead of selling a few new units to the hardcore players every rules change, both casual and serious players would invest more money buying multiple armies. There are 15 armies or so for 40K - few players own all of them. There's tons of room for expansion there and it's more consistent with GW's existing business model.

Longshot wrote:if the nids had any other way to pop tanks reliably I would agree

Any nid army starts with two or three gunfexes -- without them the army is a cruel joke.

I'm staying philosophical about it.

I figure that vehicle use will diminish overall, which should help. Being able to more easily destroy vehicles in CC will be an incremental improvement. And horde Tyranids are getting some pretty significant buffs overall, so while they'll struggle to pop tanks they're going to still kill the crap out of the infantry. *shrug*

Tyranids look to play a lot more like their 2nd and early 3rd edition versions, IMO.

Asmodai wrote:

It would make more sense to me to have solid rules that are fun to play. That would sustain interest (rather than having 80% of players leave within 2 years as GW says is the case). Instead of selling a few new units to the hardcore players every rules change, both casual and serious players would invest more money buying multiple armies. There are 15 armies or so for 40K - few players own all of them. There's tons of room for expansion there and it's more consistent with GW's existing business model.

Hey, I agree. Not having GW's data, I can't vouche for how effective their strategy is, but they clearly have one. Assuming 80% of people leave the hobby after 2 years, that means GW would need to sell 5 armies to each vet in 2 years to replace each noob. Now, as you pointed out, if the rules were better, people felt more secure in the hobby, etc. then maybe only half would leave. this is an old debate of course, so I'll simply say that I'm assuming GW figures it can make more money selling to newbs and re-upping vets than by having people build new armies, and that's because new armies offer diminishing returns on fun to the veteran gamer. Your first 40k army allows you to play, a 2nd might allow you play in a very different manner, but it's still the same game. Your third army is even less distinct, etc. YMMV.

I can't for the life of me figure out how the game can work if footslogging infantry can move 12" in a turn. Either vehicles become no quicker than infantry, or become so ludicrously fast that deployment loses all meaning.

I don't even know why that rule needed changing. Sure, it was hard for footslogging infantry to move right across the board and assault people, but that seemed pretty sensible, almost a good thing. Running all the way across the battlefield should be a bad idea.

At the end of the day, I guess that's why I keep doubting these rumours. I like a few of the other changes, the 5+ cover save for skimmers, allocating armour saves (should do wonders to hidden powerfists), but I just can't believe the rumours as long as the forced march is in there. GW has released some slipshod rules in the past, but nothing has ever been entirely broken. I can't see how a 5th ed game with infantry moving 12" would be anything other than broken.

Longshot wrote:if the nids had any other way to pop tanks reliably I would agree

There is another rumour that states that CC hits are resolved against a vehicles rear armour so I imagine that Genestealers or (Str 4) Hormagaunts will be the way forward for Nids vs. vehicles with only the Demolisher and the Land raider having rear armour above 10 off the top of my head (feel free to remember some other ones). It's still possible to shoot vehicles with Zoanthropes and Hive Tyrants (who can now fleet (sort of, if the run rumour is true) if they're out of range with Warp Blast.

True that. Genies, ravenors, lictors, warriors would be able to hit most vehicles.

I've heard that rending will change to be like the cyclic ion blaster. horray, now genestealers are way over pointed.

The "allocate wounds before saves" rule does not remove hidden powerfists unless it also allows the attacking player to decide the allocation.

The current "torrent of fire" rule does allow the attacker to impose save on the hidden pwoerfist but it is not well explained in the 4the dition book.

It will be interesting to see the detail on this rule, particularly whether it allows the attacker to allocate powerful AP value wounds to specific models.

(This would of course once again make Tau shield drones pointless.)

My guess is the idea behind the 'forced march' idea is to make 'tactical redeployment' a bit easier... I.E. if the game has come down to a big fight on one side of the board, at present you may as well remove any squads on the opposite side without special movement. Giving them additional movement means there's a chance they can redeploy enough to have some effect on the battle.

Still is weird with vehicle speeds, though.

Well my zilla's had a base of 2 sniper fexes and one uber or god fex. This just makes me wish I had gone the rare magnet route. Honestly out of all the games I have played with my zilla's I have had some pretty close calls. I think only one game was a truly bad match up and we closed the game by turn 3 in the zilla's favor.

The main issue will be speed. If the march rules are true, then I see more footsloggin list in the future. I do see that the 6 man las/plas squads becoming a thing of the past, especially if hit with enough shots. Speed kills the zilla list, mainly because I have a CC fex and run only 2 dakka fexes.

Thus I see the pendulum swinging with the Tyranid list, moving from TMC's to the swarm or even stealer shock. I am not sure if people will be taking more tanks in this version.

I would agree with Ed in the sense that tanks are great in apocalypse but in the main game with these new changes I am doubtful that they will see much light of day.

I guess I am at the end of a cruel joke as I see my zilla's become less effective in this new edition. As longshot said, if the zilla's had a better way of popping tanks then it wouldn't be so bad.

As I said before I relied on the four venom cannons and the 2 plus barbed stranglers to try to get some serious hurting on tanks. It was all about rolling lucky glancing hits, now if I am lucky I will get immobilization, but I don't want to be focusing my guns on those tanks until they explode more than what is necessary.

Again this is just my 2 cents, I miss the days of Rogue Trader that's for sure!

Chappy P!

Not so overpointed if gaunts can screen them......

im still not digging the blasts scattering. its kind of disturbing that this particular rumor keeps surfacing, makes me think its either total BS or its bead on.

dunno about scouts giving scout to a vehicle they ride in. land raiders and falcons comming in behind nemy lines and stuff, if of course, the rumor about scouts getting flank march is true.

guh.

Balance wrote:My guess is the idea behind the 'forced march' idea is to make 'tactical redeployment' a bit easier... I.E. if the game has come down to a big fight on one side of the board, at present you may as well remove any squads on the opposite side without special movement. Giving them additional movement means there's a chance they can redeploy enough to have some effect on the battle.

Still is weird with vehicle speeds, though.

It is necessary if we assume the "only Troops can score" rule is true.

Players will tend to take a lot more troops who currently are not needed for scoring and they will have to be marched up to the objectives.

In a 6 turn game current Troops can only move half the width or 2/3ths the depth of a table, less if they stop to shoot.

well, with blasts able to hit everyone they touch, the scatter would be the only real way to balance it out across ballistic skills.

I wonder how that will work with Plasma Cannons, where is the overheat roll? A barrage of plasma cannon blasts hitting all that they touch, Nice.

I think it is nice that glancing weapons will have to build up to a destroyed result. Light skimmers will still go down in flames, but most higher armour tanks become much tougher.

i dunno, i always liked the chances of nuking a tank on a glancing hit.

so a skimmer moving more then 6 inches gets a 5+ save and then my fire prism could ONLY fire the PC and not the SC as well? i dunno, on top of the fact that the PC will now scatter, making its bew higher BS worthless.

Longshot wrote:if the nids had any other way to pop tanks reliably I would agree

Any nid army starts with two or three gunfexes -- without them the army is a cruel joke.

Being able to Run means that it'll be much easier to get Carnifexes into CC with vehicles, at which point they're tossing 4-6 S10+2d6 swings your way. Which isn't to say that they'll be just as good as they are now, but frankly Nids needed a foil, and tanks make perfect sense for that.

didnt the rumors say that if a unit runs it can't assault that round? or am i missing something?

For some reason, I thought that the forced march rule let infantry units move an extra D6(like fleet is currently) but without assaulting, whereas models with fleet could still assault. That makes good sense to me, and doesn't make transports useless.

I like the 5+ cover save for smoke/smf. It makes vehicles like Rhinos more survivable, preserves lighter skimmers like Speeders or Pirhanas, but will go a long way towards making Falcons and Hammerheads not function as perfect VP denial units. Ultimately it narrows the gap between skimmers and regular vehicles.

I also really dig the blast template rules. I was so fed up with all the partials and B.S. This will be huge for Plasma Cannons. They will be more risky, but will also be far deadlier when they do hit. It will make bunched up troops targets of opportunity again.

The new screening/LOS rules look a bit problematic to me. I can forsee a lot of abuse, arguments, and cheese arising from this system. I play IG and felt that the whole IG gunline days were ridiculous. The description in the leak is too vague to start worrying about, but I hope that they tread really carefully on that one.

Bikes all now get a 3+ cover save for their turbo-boost. So the psy-cannon thing is out the window.

No more invulnerable saves for turbo-boosting bikes? Now that's more like it! It's been too long since Tzeentch last got tzcrewed and I was starting to get anxious. This is finally starting to sound like a proper new edition of 40k!