Nurglitch wrote:We'll Be Back can be negated by Sweeping Advances in assaults. You can overwhelm a block of Necron units crowded around a Necron Lord with a Resurrection Orb by hitting them hard with assault troops.

With the ability to teleport out of hand to hand and the necron's already high leadership, not to mention that there are likely to be huge numbers of necrons crouded around said lord, I question the viability (but not the possibility) of this tactic. While you might be able to do a significant amount of damage to the necrons, unless you bring hordes of guys into the scrum (orcs), you are not going to have enough in there to get the heavy outnumber bonuses you need to actually break the leadership 10 necrons.

Pinning, particular with Dark Eldar Horrorfexes and Terrorfexes, but also numerous weapons like Sniper Rifles and Pulse Carbines, can pin units of Necrons down while you assault nearby Necron Lords, Tomb Spyders, and similar units.

There is an 8% chance that necrons fail a pin check. That's so low that its hardly be worth considering as a viable option. On average you need 12 different units to cause casualties to a necron unit to pin them. By that point, the unit is almost dead anyway.

Tank Shock, while risky thanks to the Gauss rule, can be used to spread Necrons around the board. If you're very lucky you can catch a unit of Necrons below 50% strength, and they will not be able to rally (unless they pick up stragglers, but that's why you escort them off the board at a 4" remove). We'll Be Back does you little good if you are falling back away from a Resurrection Orb or Tomb Spyder.

You have to stay within 6" of the necron unit to escorte them off the board. While falling back, they can still shoot their gauss weapons twice at 12" every turn. That sounds like a dead tank long before the necrons run off the board. Of course, they also have to fail their leadership test to fall back in the first place and that isn't very likely.

All in all, while pariahs can be a useful addition to a necron force, I believe that their point cost and non-necron status tends to seriously detract from your phase out number. If you are running a foot force without a monolith or a C-tan, you may have enough spare points around to pick up some pariahs. On the other hand, if you have lots of other goodies in your army, you are going to need to save thoes points from the pariahs can focus them on units that are going to keep you from phasing out.

A couple of corrections, Phoenix: The point is to break the Necron units before the following Necron movement phase. Secondly there is an easy source of out-numbering: Dreadnoughts. They are cheap, count as ten models, and bring a few hits to the combat. It's certainly a viable tactic, it you're willing to go all in. After two or three crushing defeats, most Necron players give up the phalanx.

Remember also that the Necrons make one Pinning test for each unit firing Pinning weapons at them. This is one situation where combat squads shine, to create more pinning tests for a unit to fail during a turn. Moreover tanks like the Whirlwind inflict an additional -1, and Terrorfexes/Horrorfexes can inflict much greater modifiers.

The point of tank-shocking isn't to chase the Necrons off the board, although that can be fun, the point of the tank-shock is to break up the phalanx and cut units of from the Necron Lord bearing a Resurrection Orb. Remember that models don't need to fail their Morale test to get pushed out of the way by an oncoming tank.

The Pariahs simply move out of the way, without any worry about losing the benefit of the Resurrection Orb, and with a distinctly good chance of simply chopping the offending tank in half if you really want to Death or Glory it.

Their point-cost and non-Necron status only detracts from the Phase Out number when it's stacked on topic of that of Monoliths, Scarabs, and Tomb Spyders (and other non-Necron units). The interesting thing is that you can use that affect on the Phase Out to sucker your opponent into redirecting firepower at units affecting the Phase Out, basically giving your Pariahs a free ticket to get in close and do some Soulless.

Wait...wait...dreads getting into close combat with Necrons?

And you wonder why I cannot take what you say seriously.

My personal favorite is the assertion that not benefiting from any of the Necron rules is a bonus for Pariahs. I mean, hey, it's great that you don't have to worry about them being near the Lord for that bonus to WBB because they can't do it anyway! AWESOME!

Pariahs also remove phase out bodies by virtue of opportunity cost recall. 5 pariahs is what, 10 warriors? 5-6 immortals? Both of which are tough models to kill. The trouble is that they do not add much of anything above the value of immortals, and comparing them to a monolith which greatly boosts the value of your other troops is silly. Compared to say Tomb Spiders and Scarabs you might have a point, but one really has to ask which adds the greater utility and synergy to the army. Pariahs pale in comparison.

Nurglitch wrote:
Their point-cost and non-Necron status only detracts from the Phase Out number when it's stacked on topic of that of Monoliths, Scarabs, and Tomb Spyders (and other non-Necron units). The interesting thing is that you can use that affect on the Phase Out to sucker your opponent into redirecting firepower at units affecting the Phase Out, basically giving your Pariahs a free ticket to get in close and do some Soulless.

Who uses tomb spyders?

If all of the weapons are going at the necrons, you will phase out and so it won't matter that they didn't shoot the Pariahs.

Spyders suffer from the same issues as Pariahs. They aren't good at anything in particular and suffer terribly by comparison to the other choices in their category.

By giving Spyders the Carnifex treatment (lotsa options and a killer plastic kit) and fixing Pariahs and Wraiths (not that Wraiths are completely terrible, it's just that they could be so much more), you'd have yourself a much more interesting army.

I hope Necrons are assigned to Phil Kelly. He'd do a good job with them.

One note -- Nurglitch is right about terrorfexes and horrorfexes. You daren't use the veil if your opponent is fielding them. On the other hand, what Monoliths do to DE is just obscene. It more than balances out.

Yea, I don't think I would spend more than a few seconds worrying about what the dark eldar will do to my army, other than "omg they are stabbing my face turn 1". Even assuming someone plays DE in your area, there is not much that Pariahs are going to help against there. Being ignored by spikey elves is not much different from being ignored by everyone else. Though the spikey elves will totally be making fun of your at their parties, but since the pariahs won't be invited, it won't matter.
A monolith is so much better against DE than pariahs that it isn't even funny. Of course, you could write almost any army in for "DE" in that sentance and have a true statement.

I like the comparison of Pariahs vs C'tan, I think that is a valid comparison.

You get 10 Pariahs for the price of the Nightbringer. Both are fearless, and the question is, which one is harder to kill. The other thing to consider is that after Pariahs get to your lines and there are only three of them left they are not anyway near as powerful as a Nightbringer when he is down to 2/3 wounds. The Nightbringer is also only harmed by Powerfists, while the Pariahs are T5 I3 3+ so may not even get their attacks off.

Basically, their leadership rule is cool. Fearless is cool. But they are just not that great.

The other thing, regarding Sweeping advance. If all you are looking for is Fearless, Scarab Swarms and Tomb Spiders provide the same at lower cost with more options.

They _do_ have a shooting attack, to their credit. Something that none of these options provides.

Nurglitch wrote:A couple of corrections, Phoenix: The point is to break the Necron units before the following Necron movement phase.

Possible but it is dependent on how far they end up fleeing. If they are still near your tank after they flee, your tank is getting killed. So I would still consider this unreliable at best.

Secondly there is an easy source of out-numbering: Dreadnoughts. They are cheap, count as ten models, and bring a few hits to the combat. It's certainly a viable tactic, it you're willing to go all in.

Apparently I'm missing something. How is it you plan to get a dreadnaught into hand to hand with necrons? Dreadnaughts move 6 (just like necrons) and every single necron has a weapon that can kill the dreadnaught from 24" away. There is simply no way any decent necron player will allow you to get that close with a dreadnaught. They will simply back off and/or shoot the dreadnaught to death long before it hits their lines.

Remember also that the Necrons make one Pinning test for each unit firing Pinning weapons at them. This is one situation where combat squads shine, to create more pinning tests for a unit to fail during a turn. Moreover tanks like the Whirlwind inflict an additional -1, and Terrorfexes/Horrorfexes can inflict much greater modifiers.

While I agree that terrorfexes and horrorfexes can be useful, other pinning weapons are not so much. In order to cause a pin check, you have to actually kill a necron (T4, 3+ save) with a pinning weapon. Possible, but not the easiest thing in the world to do. After that they have to fail a leadership 10 check. So like I said before, it takes an average of 12 pin checks to actually get them to fail a test. This jumps down to 6 if you use ordanance weapons like a whirlwind that give a -1. So over 2 turns, 3 whirlwinds will pin one unit once assuming that each one kills at least one necron every time it fires. That sounds like a huge waste of points to me.

The point of tank-shocking isn't to chase the Necrons off the board, although that can be fun, the point of the tank-shock is to break up the phalanx and cut units of from the Necron Lord bearing a Resurrection Orb. Remember that models don't need to fail their Morale test to get pushed out of the way by an oncoming tank.

Breaking up the phalanx is good in theory, but to do it, you have to end a turn with your tank sitting smack in the middle of said phalanx (since only models that are under the tank when it stops are actually moved). On the necron turn, that's one dead tank. It also isn't likely to move models far enough away from the orb to keep them from being affected by it (you'll probably need 2 or 3 tanks to really separate units from the orb).

The interesting thing is that you can use that affect on the Phase Out to sucker your opponent into redirecting firepower at units affecting the Phase Out, basically giving your Pariahs a free ticket to get in close and do some Soulless.

That is shaky at best. While the necron opponent is likely to focus more on "necron" units than others (like the pariahs), I don't think that's a huge boon to the non-necron units. It doesn't matter what the pariahs do, if you run out of "necron" units, you lose the game. So any good necron player needs to make sure that they can keep the required number of "necrons" alive. Res orbs, teleporting, and more bodies to raise the "necron" count are all ways to accomplish this. Diluting your "necron" count with non-"necron" units does not help you. The necron army is really one where every choice you make has to be weighed against the opportunity cost of being able to spend those points on more necrons.

Phoenix: There's not much worry about how far the Necron unit will flee because I2 tends to lose a Sweeping Advance by I4+. Although Orks have the out-numbering bonus, they also have I2, so they can't use this tactic as effectively. Fortunately they have the numbers to engage several Necron units at once, so even if one is pulled out, then there will be several others locked in combat to get beaten up. This is assault, not tank shock.

Regarding pinning, five Sniper Rifles or a Whirlwind missile barrage have a fairly decent chance of wounding a T4 Sv3+ model.

Likewise you don't need to break a unit of Necrons to move them out of the 6" Orb range, especially with tank shock. Gauss is nasty, but a cheap-ass Rhino or three with extra armour or possession can plough into a phalanx and break them up enough just by moving them out of its path that you can put the Necrons down with heavy weapons. Warscythes, with their reliable ability to cause penetrating hits via Death or Glory, throw a wrench into the equation.

Now I'm not saying that Pariahs are great. Far from it, but they benefit from synergy with other Necron units, particularly Lords, Flayed Ones, Wraiths, and other seldom seen Necron units. Whether they're worth taking depends on the other units you have in your Necron force.

I mean, I know dismissing non-obvious units out of hand is the received wisdom of Dakka Dakka, but I think it shows more skill to figure out these non-obvious units and make them work. At the end of the day at least you don't have yet another boring cookie-cutter Dakka-approved army list.

Anyhow, I've contributed my ideas about what Pariahs can do, and they've been rubbished in good Dakka fashion. I guess it's up to Lady Canoness to decide what she wants to do with her army now.

one tactic I have used with Pariahs is to hide them. Get them where their -LD thing works and keepthem safe. I then use 2 10 man squads of Scarabs to surrond units and force break checks. I also use the deciever to jack fearless.

In on game I crossfired 2 marine units and the chaplain and unit in one turn.

Nurglitch wrote:I mean, I know dismissing non-obvious units out of hand is the received wisdom of Dakka Dakka, but I think it shows more skill to figure out these non-obvious units and make them work. At the end of the day at least you don't have yet another boring cookie-cutter Dakka-approved army list.

That is what you do not understand. Not only that, this is a slight against the rest of us that you share a forum with. I listened to you just fine, and it is my opinion as a veteran gamer that you are mistaken. Immortals, Necrons and C'tan all three provide a better use of points than Pariahs do.

The Necron list is an old one, and Pariahs have been around the block. They just don't have the resiliency that Immortals do, and their close combat ability is marginal. They protect against sweeping advance, true, which is even more reason to shoot them dead before they get there.

They are an atypical underused elite unit in 40k. They have powerful abilitities and a high points cost but disproportionate defensiveness. Couple in their lack of mobility and you have FAIL.

They were more useful in 3rd edition when you could screen them. You can hide them behind a C'tan or Terrain but then they can't shoot. They have an interesting leadership abiliity that does not (I believe) require line of sight. Pity that you pay minimum 144 points for the privledge. The necron list is similiar to Witchhunters, another list with underperforming elite units. They just don't stack up against basic troopers point for point, Sisters because of BS4 Bolter/ 3+ and Necrons because of the WBB save.

Pity they were never given FNP, because it would be a different story.

-------
Actually you know what, here's a tactic that might work. They could work as a reserve. You keep them well back from the line. So say their leadership ability is only used in Turn 5 or even Turn 6. The first turn or so they don't do anything, but they march up and provide some support fire. Maybe their leadership rule comes into play at some point and help force a squad off the table.

Too bad Immortals used aggressively are still better.

Tacobake: So what's your opinion as a veteran gamer worth? It's worth zilch to me.

You see, I'm not interested in what your experiences may prejudice for you. There's a reason the plural of "anecdote" is not data: people's personal experiences are prone to all sorts of selection bias.

I've seen too many "under-performing" units used effectively to give much credence to popular opinion on what is and is not an effective unit. Back at the end of 3rd edition, for example, a friend of mine became the Canadian Grand Champion using an Eldar army including Rangers, Fire Prisms, and Shining Spears. Popular opinion asserted that one couldn't win a game using these units, but he showed otherwise.

Your apparent lack of experience with Pariah, the evidence for which I'm taking your unfamiliarity with the Soulless rule (you got it right, by the way) suggests to me that you simply never figured out how to use them. Granted, if a unit is difficult to use, then it's understandable that you weren't willing to take the beatings that would have helped you learn them, because some people simply can't deal with losing all the time. Likewise it's understandable that you weren't able to figure out how to use Pariahs, I never would have figured out Shining Spears or Fire Prisms in 3rd edition, it took someone smarter.

I'm glad Lady Canoness brought this up because I'm interested in the tactics that a unit of Pariahs might allow a Necron player to apply to their game. I think it would be cool to figure these guys out particularly since they look so weak at first glance.

Nurglitch wrote:There's a reason the plural of "anecdote" is not data: people's personal experiences are prone to all sorts of selection bias.

Seperate from everything else I say below, you should explain what you mean by this to me. I think I am too stupid to understand you. Try and reference Kuhn, Popper and Lakatos, maybe that will help.

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So when I say things like, "While their offense abilities are comparable to other units in the codex, they are lacking in resiliency and mobility in tune with their points cost," that statement is not something you want to hear? You gave your 2c, we listened, we answered back. We are not playing thousands of Necron games here, with Pariahs and without to find out if they are any good. We are having a discussion that is mostly theoryhammer.

Nurglitch wrote:

I've seen too many "under-performing" units used effectively to give much credence to popular opinion on what is and is not an effective unit. Back at the end of 3rd edition, for example, a friend of mine became the Canadian Grand Champion using an Eldar army including Rangers, Fire Prisms, and Shining Spears. Popular opinion asserted that one couldn't win a game using these units, but he showed otherwise.

http://ca.games-workshop.com/Community/Events_Coverage/events_coverage.htm

which one is it?

Nurglitch wrote:
Your apparent lack of experience with Pariah, the evidence for which I'm taking your unfamiliarity with the Soulless rule (you got it right, by the way) suggests to me that you simply never figured out how to use them. Granted, if a unit is difficult to use, then it's understandable that you weren't willing to take the beatings that would have helped you learn them, because some people simply can't deal with losing all the time. Likewise it's understandable that you weren't able to figure out how to use Pariahs, I never would have figured out Shining Spears or Fire Prisms in 3rd edition, it took someone smarter.

I'm glad Lady Canoness brought this up because I'm interested in the tactics that a unit of Pariahs might allow a Necron player to apply to their game. I think it would be cool to figure these guys out particularly since they look so weak at first glance.

that's true enough. They have strengths. But not once in this thread have you admitted that they have weaknesses, as well. Or rather you have not been willing to consider they may not be that great. And it is insulting to us when you suggest that we are not listening to you, when many of us have recognized your arguments and then re-iterated our own. They do not have resiliency that matches their points cost. That, and it is at least worth considering that there are units, with more effective resiliency/ mobility that at least match them in offense.

I don't want to be insulting, OK. It is obvious to me, and to many other players, just like it is to you, that they may have a use. Hiding them and taking them only for their souless rule is one. Fearless is another. We established that. That's fine. We then went on to talk of practical list building, and Pariahs are rarely worthwhile. That doesn't mean that your initial comments of their obvious strengths wasn't a worthwhile thing to say.

My issue I took with you was your suggestion we were not listening. We listened just fine.

Tacobake: That's my point, we don't have access to objective testing or personal experience. All we can talk about is "theory-hammer" (seriously, who comes up with these terms?). Hence backing up your claims with reference to your experience is worth zilch.

As for anything I have "admitted", we are not engaged in the sort of discussion where there are winners and losers, where things can be "admitted" as though extracted by force. I don't need to admit the weaknesses of Pariahs, much like I don't need to admit their strengths. What I need to discuss, to carry on this conversation in a constructive manner, is what they can do, not what I think they should do (strengths) or what I think they are not good at (weaknesses). Hence saying that they are not resilient enough for their points cost firstly ignores what can be done to protect them (such as combining them with a Lord, etc), and secondly ignores the inherent pointlessness of "efficiency per point" arguments (because those arguments pre-suppose tactics, and presuppose different uses are used for the same tactics).

Perhaps you take it as insulting that I might suggest you aren't bothering to listen to me, but when I'm not offering "efficiency per point" arguments, or really any arguments at all, then it seems right that I should point out that you're ignoring not only what I'm saying, but how I'm saying it. The fact is that if you were listening to me, paying attention and addressing what I was saying in like manner, then we would be having a very different conversation.

Since you're more interested in me than in proposing tactics to exploit Pariahs in a Necron army, I'll bow out of the conversation so it can continue on topic.

Incidentally, here's the reference: http://ca.games-workshop.com/Community/Events_Coverage/Games_Day_2004/Conflict_finals/home.htm

Dave's the guy in the loud shirt.

That's not actually what this is about. This is what happened. You should listen.

1) You said stuff.
2) We said stuff.
3) ...
4) You said,

I mean, I know dismissing non-obvious units out of hand is the received wisdom of Dakka Dakka, but I think it shows more skill to figure out these non-obvious units and make them work.

We were not dismissing them 'out of hand'. We were offering very valid critism. There is no 'percieved wisdom of Dakka Dakka', this isn't Warseer.

And I am not 'interested in you'. I was insulted.

Now, not to nitpick I don't see any Rangers or Shining Spears . I see Banshees and Scorpions in Wave Serpents, a Vyper, a Fire Prism and I _think_ I see a Falcon, but it may very well be a second Fire Prism. Looks like a pretty typical 3rd ed Biel Tan list to me. Shining Spears would not be a bad fit in that list, give them some second turn assault or a bit of tank hunting maybe. I may very well actually have that Canadian WD supplement I will have to try and dig it out.

Wehrkind wrote:Yea, I don't think I would spend more than a few seconds worrying about what the dark eldar will do to my army, other than "omg they are stabbing my face turn 1". Even assuming someone plays DE in your area, there is not much that Pariahs are going to help against there. Being ignored by spikey elves is not much different from being ignored by everyone else. Though the spikey elves will totally be making fun of your at their parties, but since the pariahs won't be invited, it won't matter.
A monolith is so much better against DE than pariahs that it isn't even funny. Of course, you could write almost any army in for "DE" in that sentance and have a true statement.

Hilarious! You too should get a podcast.

I can see that Pariahs will take a lot of getting used to to field them. I think that everyone who has so far said that they are not 'point-for-point' worth it are correct. They don't have the attacks to effectively end a rampage going through your lines (I have no idea how Necrons would stop a 10 man death company anyway (other than trying to bog them down with Scarabs...)

I don't plan on using a monolith (I want to have lots and lots and lots of dudes!), so I might give a (small) unit of Pariahs a shot so that I can have even more nasty special abilities hiding out in the phalanx.

Keep posting though, if anyone has a good way of making Pariahs, well, good, then let me know!

Once you can screen them in 5th edition, they will become much more useful in small groups. This will simply be as a little insurance as you force fall back checks on things close to you (probably ones that have been left high and dry after you teleport out of hand to hand) from the soulless power.

I agree with Phoenix. That will be their primary use in 5th. combine that with the necron rumor of no phase out and a small unit or too could become useful.

This thread has gone a long time without anyone mentioning Immortals (sorry if I missed it.).

The reason Pariahs aren't played isn't that they are atrocious, or dreadful, but merely that Immortals are superb, and share their slot.

I think that was implicit in a lot of the arguments.

That's why I think they need a complete overhaul and distinct, defined role. Make the players mull over an apples-to-oranges comparison instead of apples-to-apples (or crabapples as the case may be). When two units in the same org slot have a lot in common, one is bound to suffer by comparison.

It seems kind of weird to say that Immortals compete with Pariahs for Elite slots. I mean you only have three slots, sure, but people seem pretty clear on the differences between the two units. If you're going to compare the two such difference for the same role, one unit is going to suffer by the comparison. Apples don't make good oranges. Seeing as they don't make good oranges, that seems a pretty good indication that they're meant for something else.

Nurglitch, I have no desire to get drawn into a long argument over this, but they're both T5, 3+ platforms with Gauss Blasters. Hence my apples-to-crabapples analogy.

I'm a Necron player and I'm more than aware that there are also differences between the units. I'd just like to see fewer or no similarities at all, as I think Pariahs would then have a better chance to shine.

Whether you think their roles are completely different or not, most players end up comparing the two units because of some of their shared qualities. I think more differentiation would drive some new thinking and more diversity among Necron armies.

The other reason people compare them is that every unit of Pariahs you take is one less unit of Immortals you can take. It's all about the opportunity cost, and Pariahs just don't give as much benefit for the cost. Pariahs are just not good enough in HtH that they are significantly superior to Immortals in that regard. When it comes down to it you are trading points, WBB, and Necron bodies for a Ld penalty to units within 12", and a slightly superior melee ability. It just doesn't make sense.

Now, maybe in 5th with screening and a new Necron codex that writes out Phase out that trade might be a bit better. Even better would be lowering their points, giving them WBB (or FNP or whatever) and increasing their attacks to at least 2 base, or some combination there of. However, not matter how much better they will be in 5th, they still are a poor choice now.

It was always going to be hard to make them good without increasing their points, probably when play testing they had lots of luck with them and so made them as they are, but I agree with the Imortals being better, and yes Pariahs have warscythes and so are good against things with Inv saves and vehicles (to an extent) but just seem to get blown up to easily

Wehrkind:

So let's speak about opportunity cost. It strikes me that having Warscythes would make Immortals significantly better in close combat than they actually are. Making enemies run away once you've won combat strikes me as likewise significantly better than getting "tar-pitted". Soulless combines well with both the Gaze of Flame and the Nightmare Shroud in that regard.

Remember the further differences between Pariahs and Immortals: Fearless and Psychic Abomination. Fearless has been pooh-poohed here as being a relatively minor improvement on Ld10. I've pointed out that Fearless is pretty significant, re: Tank Shock, Sweeping Advance, Pinning, and so on.

About Psychic Abomination, it has a pathetic range. Until you consider the space that you can fill with Pariahs on the board. This applies to Soulless as well: Take a unit of four Pariahs, and set them in a line. They can make a lozenge-shaped area 25" wide and 34" long of Soulless. They can make a lozenge-shaped area 13" wide and 16" long for Psychic Abomination. The Psychic Abomination is pretty much limited to use against Eldar, but it helps to keep those Warlocks on Jetbikes away from stuff like Monoliths.

Taken alone, and on plain numbers, I agree that you might as well invest the ponts and Elite slot in another unit of Immortals. However, as I explained earlier, they have lots of synergy with other units in the army, and in particular with Necron Lords. They have some of the few 'Power Weapons' in the Necron army, which adds more in an assault than a few extra attacks. But they need to support other units (rather than the other way around), and they are not Immortals and can't do what Immortals are good at (such as skipping around the board with a Lord bearing a Veil of Darkness).

Take the problem with them not having We'll Be Back. Solve it by putting them behind a line of Warriors (or even Immortals!) and attaching a Necron Lord with the Solar Pulse.

I agree with gorgon that these differences need to be emphasized, but if rumours are true regarding the 5th edition of 40k people will notice them more anyways.

Warscyths would be awesome true, if the pariahs got to swing more than 1-2 times with them, even better if they swung them as fast as a marine. But they don't. Against things like orks, the damage caused is not enough. Against anything as fast or faster than a marine (though you don't see many I4+ things...wait) they might not even get to swing. That of course ruins any "tarpit" defense, since the chances of actually winning combat are not exciting.
Besides that, who would want to tarpit them anyway? Their shooting is decent, but not horrific.

Fearless is not more useful on pinning or tank shock than Ld10. First of all, what pins that you care about? How often do you find yourself saying "Oh noes! Pinned!" I have failed one pin test EVER with my Sisters, and I often run against Tau sniper teams and blastmaster rocking Emp's Kids. A Ld9-10 is just not prone to failing tests, ever. Tankshock, same thing. The only fun thing is that the Pariah can death or glory and maybe tag the tank, but then why would someone tank shock a Pariah unit? Again, ignoring them is still the best