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Centurian99 wrote:

grizgrin wrote:Cent99: You make a good point. It's always a winning strategy to be able to destroy your opponent when he's out of knife range.

It's not so much that or stealer shock would be an unexplainable abberation.

Its that a shooting army doesn't have to worry about taking casualties in its own shooting phase.

That has more or less always been my guiding principle of army building. Hand to hand if fun and all and you can see some really beat downs there sometimes, but its always better to kill the enemy from so far away that they can't really hurt you. Just my style, but it seems to work well for me and for many others as well. Guess that's why they are buffing up assault units' ability to get there with the run rule and more solid transports.

Land Raiders are more solid, but stopping Rhino-class transports just needs more lower strength firepower so you can get them immobilized at midfield.

Land Raiders...man. Stopping them is a PITA.

The SW LR rush or BT LRC rush can totally work now, only a handful of specific army builds can stop LR. And about half of those go out the window when BT get involved.

Stelek wrote:Land Raiders are more solid, but stopping Rhino-class transports just needs more lower strength firepower so you can get them immobilized at midfield.

Land Raiders...man. Stopping them is a PITA.

The SW LR rush or BT LRC rush can totally work now, only a handful of specific army builds can stop LR. And about half of those go out the window when BT get involved.

Grey Knights

Land Raider x3

Yeah but Gay Knights don't have POTM on their Land Rovers. So you get to pay for EA.

However GK termies, while expensive as all get out, really are doom for alot of armies.

Especially now, with the mass removal of furious charge from almost every unit in the game.

I, for one, will be happy to see land raiders be viable again. Not only will it bring a previously unused model back into the game (yay pendulem effect) but more importantly, it will mean that there will finaly be some worth while targets for my bright lances.

Except for BT LRC.

I haven't been talking in fear of BT for nothing...

Phoenix wrote:

Redbeard wrote:I don't think you can discount lascannons as anti-tank, simply because they're AP2. Being stuck with autocannons and/or missile launchers is kind of death sentence against a 2+ winged hive tyrant, which aren't exactly uncommon.

While I agree that you will be up the preverbal creek without a paddle should your army contain no high strength AP2 weapons, I think that the weapons that fill that role will shift from things like the las cannon towards more short range options like melta guns and possibly plasma. This will mostly be due to the fact that the longer ranged options are getting more and more expensive with each codex (dark angles, eldar, and the like) while the short ranged ones are staying more or less where they were. Just my thoughts.

With infantry moving faster, and vehicles moving slower, shorter range AT weapons become more effective.

This is speaking in generalities, but is taking lots of troop choices always your best bet? I understand the Troop choices are what captures objectives, but what about army builds that focus on ensuring your opponent can't claim any objectives and skulk a couple small troop choices around and at the end grab a single objective. Regardless of how many there are, if you have one and your opponent has zero, you still win.

It is not always your best bet.

Some armies do troops better than others.

Sarigar, I think that might work. Would be interesting to try anyway.

While I agree that the current strong builds will remain so for the most part (with tweaks), the cool thing is that many armies become much more viable in 5ed (IG, Black Templar, old school style nids, Space Wolves, true mech armies with dedicated transports). I think that will have an interesting and hard to predict effect on the meta-game.

I haven't been talking in fear of BT for nothing...

Yup...and I am glad I have enough versatility to adapt to any thing 5th throws my army. Currently, my Templars are running 2 LRCs. In 5th I wonder how much of a boost that is. The other thing that gets a boost is Helbrect and a command squad. In 5th edition, that thing is sick.

Capt K

I think with 5th Ed, you're going to see a dramatic shift in Marines/Chaos Marines/IG Anti-Tank to using Melta Guns instead of Lascannons for primary anti-tank.

As long as those Meltas are on fairly mobile units, you can count on knocking out the LR's.

Also because of the no-consolidate rules, I think we will see an increase in MSU style tactics or disposable units that you can use just to speedbump your opponent.

What's MSU?

Multiple Small Units

It's mainly a WHFB thing, but if you can't consolidate into squads after CC anymore, I can see people taking small cheap units to force "Speed Bump" Assaults.

EDIT: Would work wonders with Kroot and Tau, as long as the enemy units weren't jump infantry that could "hop over" the Kroot. Or you could spread the Kroot out so there's no way to assault the hiding Tau behind them.

One thing is for sure, it will be a golden age of 40K gaming. Doesn't look like much got hurt besides the one army almost everyone hates. And just about everything else seems like it got a bump. All of these tweaks to the rules mean more room to make good plays and more chances to capitalize on your opponents mistakes.

WC_Brian wrote:
One thing is for sure, it will be a golden age of 40K gaming. Doesn't look like much got hurt besides the one army almost everyone hates. And just about everything else seems like it got a bump. All of these tweaks to the rules mean more room to make good plays and more chances to capitalize on your opponents mistakes.

Don't be so sure. Certain armies will go down hill as "powerful" but Nidzilla isn't that nerfed since their units can "Contest" objectives.

Mech Eldar will take a good hit to the face though, and I can't say that I'm not happy to see it happen.

Still, there will be abuses of the game and new top tier armies will arise. Some of us are already working on developing them.

Not being able to consolidate into another unit after hth combat will definitly force assault armies to think quite a bit more.

RussWakelin wrote:Not being able to consolidate into another unit after hth combat will definitly force assault armies to think quite a bit more.

Yeah but the problem is what it will make them think about: starting a shooty army.

Assaults will have to be a lot more controlled. You are looking at killing the squad in their phase, not your own. Will that mean smaller, more calculated assaults? Most likely. Also you will try to spread your assaults out more. Split the squad up to hit two different targets, that way if you kill one squad, you will still be "locked" in assault.

Metagame wise, most of the armies will stay the same. Eldar will still be hard, big bugs will be tough still, and horde orks might be ok. A big thing when noticing the horde orks, if you assault them, kill under 20 and win the combat, they will take casualties for every wound they lost by since they are fearless at the time. It isn't hard to win assault versus orks, it is just the grinding aspect, but with power klaw getting nerfed, assault squads become little death bombs to any ork squad they hit. Hell a bezerker squad should take out the 30 orks they attack, and most likely the next 30 that come to get revenge for their brothas.

Right now, from what we have seen as tiered in the local environment is

Mech Eldar
Big Bugs (all genestealers, no point in running anything else)
Horde Orks
Nob Biker armies of doom with Feel no Pain (If you want a list check out my blog)
Assault Cannon Marines
Double Lash, Chaos fun with Oblits
Some Mech Tau

Most likely the tiers will stay the same with smaller changes. Biggest thing is trying not to overwin the initial round of assault and finish it in there turn. I think assault armies will have to multilayer their assaults. Hit in waves in order to keep the opponent from getting a decisive counter assault. Jump troops and smaller speed bump troops will be a lot better and a ton more useful.

But these are just my thoughts from looking at how the game is moving. I am excited for 5th edition and think will make the game better. Will just see if my armies stay alright heh.

Pretty much in that order.

Stelek wrote:12 single-lines of text with a single line space in between

Ouch. That really hurt. I feel like I just woke up in the OTZone without any eyewear on.