Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Asmodeus, we're on different pages here. =p

By lack of customization, I don't mean what hairstyles you can give your troops, or how many different weapons a crisis suit can take. I mean customizable tactics.

If Necrons want to make a shooting line, they can do it. If they want to make an assault force, they can do it. If they want to put an unstoppable GOD on the table, they can. If they want to make an army that literally can't die because of interlinked WBBs and Rez orbs, they can. If they want to make a "Speed Freak" army, they can whip out all their destroyers and do so. If they want a sniper army, they can. If they want to make a deep striking army, they can. In fact, two monoliths deep striking and pooping out squads of 20 warriors to rapid fire on my Tau is a horrible, horrible death! =p

Every army can do a lot of things. Tau cannot. With Tau, you can shoot. Weak troop choices that have to be kept in a transport for any chance of surviving which means they aren't shooting. Limited mobility, especially compared to other races, and pretty much a single tactical plan that encompasses all Tau army lists.

You needn't make petty comparisons. My Tau kick butt. I kick butt with my Tau. I *very* seldom lose a game with my Tau. It isn't because Tau are awesome, or because my lists are wtfbbqcheese, its because I spent so many years in the army that I usually feel like I have a clear tactical edge over my opponents. Principles of warfare that were drilled into me from day 1 are lessons not readily apparent to a lot of table-top gamers...at least where I live. I haven't been to any big circuits or tournaments yet. My Tau win because I use them well and carefully consider the battle as it unfolds and how I can exploit weaknesses that might present themselves.

At the same time, I can take my wife's Orks, or my friends' Necrons, or a bunch of termies and dreads, and I can plop them onto the field, have an absolute blast playing them, and win without having to play the game like its chess (as I do with my Tau). That's because other armies have more capabilities. More diversity. They have the ability to choose how to play. I can take my wife's ork army and make a shooty list to outgun my Tau. I can make an assault list to make Tyranids jealous. I can make a mobile list that puts armored companies to shame. I can make a gigantic green tide! I can make an army full of stompy goodness....

THAT'S what I'm talking about. Versatility. I haven't put my Tau down because they can't win, because I do win, and quite often. I put them down because other armies can accomplish everything that the Tau can thematically, and usually do it better. AND they have more themes.

Ok, I can understand and appreciate where you are coming from, but I think you'll be grossly disappointed if you're wanting that kind of versatility in a new Tau codex.

Tau are meant to be glass cannons. They get great guns, great buffs to raise their shooting capabilities through marker lights, but when they get a re-tooling, they're still not going to be as versatile as other armies. It's against their fluff and their mindset.

I'm not looking for a Tau army that can do anything.

I picked Tau because I wanted an army that could outshoot any other army. However, either because of design flaws or because of 5th edition rules, such is not the case. Not only can Tau not outshoot any other army, but the prevalence of cover saves, armor saves, and other means of circumventing death by shooting has made 40k a very strong assault game. There's just too many things together that end up with Tau being gimped relative to other races.

Dashofpepper wrote:There's just too many things together that end up with Tau being gimped relative to other races.

I dunno... as a my main army is Dark Eldar, your cries are falling on deaf ears.

Tau are the only army that has stuff to deny cover saves, if you're having a problem with that, then I think you need to go back to the Tau academy. Tau can still out-shoot everyone.

Armor saves? You're gonna really complain about armor saves? Really?

40k has always been an assault oriented game. I think you must have missed out on that part somewhere.

I think his fluff is fine... and I agree that his rules should be updated for a more 5th ed. friendly CC bonus, because the game of 40k has been moving away from fluffy gaming and towards streamlined competition.

@ Asmodeus : Actually, Space Marines can also deny cover saves... the new shooty vet. unit has an ammo type for denying cover, o and the uber cannon that is manned by a Techmarine.

And, yes, 40k has always been partial towards assault. If anything, they've made it more shooty friendly with this latest addition. No longer can I, in one fell swoop, domino your army over with consecutive CC consolidation charges.

Heh, and I know your only playing DE cuz they messed with your precious CSM's.

Tau suffers from Heavy support slot limits.

Tau suffer from a lot of things. =p

Oh yea, I also forgot, Tau needs more blast/barrage weapons. That I suppose thats against their "finess" philosophy. But yeah, right now friggin barrage weapons are a killer and Tau almost got none :(

Koolidge wrote:@ Asmodeus : Actually, Space Marines can also deny cover saves... the new shooty vet. unit has an ammo type for denying cover, o and the uber cannon that is manned by a Techmarine.

Oh. I missed one whole unit in an army I don't play.

I think the biggest reason why Tau player whine is because they all lost Fish of Fury.

Come up with a new tactic already.

Ghetto_Fight wrote:Oh yea, I also forgot, Tau needs more blast/barrage weapons. That I suppose thats against their "finess" philosophy. But yeah, right now friggin barrage weapons are a killer and Tau almost got none :(

No, what they really need is to have something like an "altruism-beam", opening the opponant's eyes to the greater good... power armor has a natural affinity to deflect feelings of greater-goodness. Then the Tau and their new found friends can prance around the meadow, making daisy tiaras.

For reals though, IG are the pie plate masters. Tau should be given the privelage of being the "precise shot" masters. Maybe FW should get BS 5... heh, that would be crazy. I mean, they already have missles that zoom around obsticles, why not train troops to shoot better, or make more accurate guns?

Asmodeus wrote:

Oh. I missed one whole unit in an army I don't play.

Actually there were two. And, yes, you don't play as them, but it doesn't hurt to know what will hurt you. O, wait, yeah it does, heh. Of coarse, I'm being silly. I don't know diddly about DE, and honestly don't care to very much, except for what is necassary for me to understand when you tell me things. So, I guess I should skim over the DE dex at some point... maybe I'll even read the Tau one.

Am I exemplifying the marine player attitude here?

Dashofpepper wrote:Asmodeus, we're on different pages here. =p

By lack of customization, I don't mean what hairstyles you can give your troops, or how many different weapons a crisis suit can take. I mean customizable tactics.

If Necrons want to make a shooting line, they can do it. If they want to make an assault force, they can do it. If they want to put an unstoppable GOD on the table, they can. If they want to make an army that literally can't die because of interlinked WBBs and Rez orbs, they can. If they want to make a "Speed Freak" army, they can whip out all their destroyers and do so. If they want a sniper army, they can. If they want to make a deep striking army, they can. In fact, two monoliths deep striking and pooping out squads of 20 warriors to rapid fire on my Tau is a horrible, horrible death! =p

Every army can do a lot of things. Tau cannot. With Tau, you can shoot. Weak troop choices that have to be kept in a transport for any chance of surviving which means they aren't shooting. Limited mobility, especially compared to other races, and pretty much a single tactical plan that encompasses all Tau army lists.

You needn't make petty comparisons. My Tau kick butt. I kick butt with my Tau. I *very* seldom lose a game with my Tau. It isn't because Tau are awesome, or because my lists are wtfbbqcheese, its because I spent so many years in the army that I usually feel like I have a clear tactical edge over my opponents. Principles of warfare that were drilled into me from day 1 are lessons not readily apparent to a lot of table-top gamers...at least where I live. I haven't been to any big circuits or tournaments yet. My Tau win because I use them well and carefully consider the battle as it unfolds and how I can exploit weaknesses that might present themselves.

At the same time, I can take my wife's Orks, or my friends' Necrons, or a bunch of termies and dreads, and I can plop them onto the field, have an absolute blast playing them, and win without having to play the game like its chess (as I do with my Tau). That's because other armies have more capabilities. More diversity. They have the ability to choose how to play. I can take my wife's ork army and make a shooty list to outgun my Tau. I can make an assault list to make Tyranids jealous. I can make a mobile list that puts armored companies to shame. I can make a gigantic green tide! I can make an army full of stompy goodness....

THAT'S what I'm talking about. Versatility. I haven't put my Tau down because they can't win, because I do win, and quite often. I put them down because other armies can accomplish everything that the Tau can thematically, and usually do it better. AND they have more themes.

Here Here

Actually if I would have to vote a codex from a previous ed that works well the 5th it would be DE all they really need is an aesthetic makeover really.

Krellnus wrote:Actually if I would have to vote a codex from a previous ed that works well the 5th it would be DE all they really need is an aesthetic makeover really.

You're right. It does. But there's still a lot of changes it needs to bring it up to speed, but you don't here a lot of us (us being DE players) complaining.

DEs are a nasty piece of work in assault, and Warhammer 40k IS primarly an assault game. There's less there to be troublesome than with Tau. Or IG.

Koolidge wrote:Tau should be given the privelage of being the "precise shot" masters. Maybe FW should get BS 5... heh, that would be crazy. I mean, they already have missles that zoom around obsticles, why not train troops to shoot better, or make more accurate guns?

^EXACTLY! Especially the crisis suits! They are suppose to be "elites", even human elites like storm troopers can shoot better!

Dashofpepper wrote:DEs are a nasty piece of work in assault, and Warhammer 40k IS primarly an assault game. There's less there to be troublesome than with Tau. Or IG.

Lol. I think in one of my favorite moments I ever watched in 40k, was a squad of Firewarriors defeating some Ravenwing Bikers in close-combat.

Asmodeus wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:DEs are a nasty piece of work in assault, and Warhammer 40k IS primarly an assault game. There's less there to be troublesome than with Tau. Or IG.

Lol. I think in one of my favorite moments I ever watched in 40k, was a squad of Firewarriors defeating some Ravenwing Bikers in close-combat.

That's what happens when you assault 12 guys with 2. That player was just being overconfident and you know it, Asmo. (Not that it wasn't awesome bringing that up every subsequent time we played, mind you.)

It was still awesome watching it.

Twice now I've had a squad of firewarriors in cover and a lictor popped out and started beating on them...only to have the firewarriors kill the lictor.

It is a common misconception that since the Lictor is "good" at close combat that things which are bad at close combat won't easily kill it. The fact is, Lictors are made out of gossamer and reflective fairy dust. Held together only by Ripper dreams and Termagant tears. Even anime fan Tau can kill one simply by falling in its direction.

A major problem relies in the fact that Tau have really no way to counter-act players who rely on heavy assault based armies. Because of run, outflank and good old deep strike, Tau get wasted by pretty much anything cus the amount of distance they can hold like they used to has been cut in 1/2. One main problem is that the tau FWs are crappy at mobility. Kroot are ok so long their is terrain around the board. Stealth suits have to get at least 18" to an enemy to fire(which kinda contradicts the Tau's main strength)

Our ability to negate cover saves with markerlights. Yea, you can if your pathfinders don't get turned to mush by one of the several long range weapons that the other player will bring (pretty much every army has a tank or something that can shoot very far). Any smart player will biasly attack the pathfinders right off the bat of turn 1 most of the time, bam you lost a major source of markerlights. Yes i know about transports, that doesn't help when it has to keep moving in order to keep it alive from all the nasty guys with chainsaw and power weapons ;p

I don't mind Tau being the "Glass cannon" of 40K. It's just that someone forgot to load the ammo >.>

But what if he let you take crisis as troops?

That would be awesome.

cerberez wrote:But what if he let you take crisis as troops?

That would be awesome.

Then the 100% only crisis suit army spam begin XD

cerberez wrote:But what if he let you take crisis as troops?

That would be awesome.

No one would take a non-Farsight army.

I know even without them as Troops, I will eventually field the full compliment of 15 Crisis in my army, just for gits & shiggles.

I have actually run a 1850 Farsight list with 13 crisis suits in it. Farsight With 7 bodygaurd, one Shas'El, and 2 2 man crisis squads. It preformed all right considering my luck, but the bodygaurd with 8 suits and 14 shield drones was unwieldy as hell to get around the table. i would not even try it now in 5th though with the true LoS.