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combo wrote:Indeed it could be argued that the entire unit doesn't gain stealth, they just gain the +1 cover save as one of their members has stealth.

Argued? That is exactly what happens. Only 1 Model has stealth, but the whole unit gets +1 because Stealth says they do. Once that one model dies you lose the bonus.

Then we're in agreement, I just like to word my statements in less confrontational ways if possible, Gwar!

combo wrote:Then we're in agreement, I just like to word my statements in less confrontational ways if possible, Gwar!

No, bad toll

Bad toll?

combo wrote:Bad toll?

Yes, you are a bad (as in poor) Passive Aggressive troll. The Gwar! doth decree it! :3

and your Mother was a hamster and your Father smelt of Elderberries!

We want... a SHRUBBERY!

combo wrote:Indeed it could be argued that the entire unit doesn't gain stealth, they just gain the +1 cover save as one of their members has stealth.

If that's the case then camo cloaks would make the scouts save 2+ and tellion would have a 3+ save in most terrain.

orkishlyorkish wrote:

combo wrote:Indeed it could be argued that the entire unit doesn't gain stealth, they just gain the +1 cover save as one of their members has stealth.

If that's the case then camo cloaks would make the scouts save 2+ and tellion would have a 3+ save in most terrain.

No, it doesn't stack. What happens is Tellions stealth gives the unit stealth, and so do the cloaks, but you only ever get +1 to Cover, same way as you only get +1 to S and I from more than 1 FC effect.

actually not sure that +1 and +1 stack, as a semi precident has been set in the Eldar codex, were pathfinders delibrately modify it from +1 to +2, rather than simply having a further +1.

Gwar! wrote:

orkishlyorkish wrote:

combo wrote:Indeed it could be argued that the entire unit doesn't gain stealth, they just gain the +1 cover save as one of their members has stealth.

If that's the case then camo cloaks would make the scouts save 2+ and tellion would have a 3+ save in most terrain.

No, it doesn't stack. What happens is Tellions stealth gives the unit stealth, and so do the cloaks, but you only ever get +1 to Cover, same way as you only get +1 to S and I from more than 1 FC effect.

Not what I was saying though. If you say that tellion gives them a +1 save but not stealth then camo cloaks will now give them stealth which would give them a +1 save because tellion only gives them his +1 save but not stealth and then the cloaks give them +1 save FROM stealth. Just saying what combo said wouldn't make sense. I don't play it that way though.

Actually not.

Telions stealth rule grants the unit a +1 save.

The cloaks stealth special rule then grant the unit the same +1 save.

basically they dont stack but rather overlap.

@orkish: But you do recognise that with telion but no cloaks, they all BENEFIT from Stealth even if they do not have it, and even if they do have cloaks and tellion they only get a +1 to cover at most (otherwise a Whole unit of cloak wearing Scouts would result in like a -6 save )

Stealth USR gives the unit +1 to its cover save ... if you have multiple people with stealth then stealth will still only +1 to your save.

Gwar! wrote:@orkish: But you do recognise that with telion but no cloaks, they all BENEFIT from Stealth even if they do not have it, and even if they do have cloaks and tellion they only get a +1 to cover at most (otherwise a Whole unit of cloak wearing Scouts would result in like a -6 save )

I never said I didn't recognize that, but combo said that

Indeed it could be argued that the entire unit doesn't gain stealth, they just gain the +1 cover save

and I was saying that it would lead to also believing that the scouts may then gain stealth for another +1. I already knew that they wouldn't get it but I was saying that if you follow the logic that combo posted then you would be saying that they may then get another +1 which, according to your logic and my logic, you wouldn't get.

ah I see. Just a little misunderstanding then

Wait wait wait.


P1: A model with Stealth provides his unit +1 cover save, but not the Stealth USR
P2: A model may receive any number of bonuses so long as they come from different sources. (i.e: multiple Stealth USR's don't stack)
C: A unit gains a bonus to their cover save equal to the number of models in that unit with stealth. (since they each give the +1 to each other)

Is that what we are saying?

Because it seems to me that in order for Telion to give stealth to his unit, the above would also have to be true.

Dracos wrote:Is that what we are saying?

No, What we are saying is:
Situation 1:
Tellion + No Cloaked Scouts: +1 to Cover Save Until Tellion Dies

Situation 2:
Tellion + Cloaked Scouts: +1 to Cover Save regardless of who dies

This is because Stealth just gives +1 so long as at least 1 model has stealth, it does not give +1 for each model with stealth. If a Unit would benefit from Stealth twice, it still only gets +1, otherwise a Scout Squad without tellion and cloaks would have a +10 to cover save.

But see only individual models actually have stealth. Their effect is to give the unit + 1 to cover saves.

The model with stealth does not give the USR, just the benefit of the USR.

Because of this there is no overlap in effect. While you can only benefit from HAVING the Stealth USR once (that is, if multiple effects grant you the USR), the actual bonus is not limited in any way by the rules.

Why can't you get both the +1 from someone else's stealth USR and from your own? I don't see the raw for it. I don't see any rule that says you can only ever get a single bonus.

p.s: I would never play this way, I just noticed a lapse in the wording that, seems to me, allows this.

Dracos wrote:But see only individual models actually have stealth. Their effect is to give the unit + 1 to cover saves.

The model with stealth does not give the USR, just the benefit of the USR.

Because of this there is no overlap in effect. While you can only benefit from HAVING the Stealth USR once (that is, if multiple effects grant you the USR), the actual bonus is not limited in any way by the rules.

Why can't you get both the +1 from someone else's stealth USR and from your own? I don't see the raw for it. I don't see any rule that says you can only ever get a single bonus.

p.s: I would never play this way, I just noticed a lapse in the wording that, seems to me, allows this.

It is the same reason that Multiple FC do not stack, and Multiple Astropaths do not. Once you add +1, you satisfy the conditions for ALL the instances of the Rule.

Gwar! wrote:It is the same reason that Multiple FC do not stack, and Multiple Astropaths do not. Once you add +1, you satisfy the conditions for ALL the instances of the Rule.

Humm I'm afraid I'm not following you. What is the rule that limits it to +1? According to the rules "All of the unit's cover saves are improved by +1" p.76. If each model has it, then they each apply their rule, which is +1. What is the rule which prevents this from happening?

To me this is more similar to the multiple pinning checks interpretation.

Dracos wrote:

Gwar! wrote:It is the same reason that Multiple FC do not stack, and Multiple Astropaths do not. Once you add +1, you satisfy the conditions for ALL the instances of the Rule.

Humm I'm afraid I'm not following you. What is the rule that limits it to +1? According to the rules "All of the unit's cover saves are improved by +1" p.76. If each model has it, then they each apply their rule, which is +1. What is the rule which prevents this from happening?

To me this is more similar to the multiple pinning checks interpretation.

No, it is not, you are just over complicating it. What is happening is this:
Tellion: ZOMG MUST IMPROVE COVER SAVE BY +1
Scout with Cloak: ZOMG MUST IMPROVE COVER SAVE BY +1
Scout with Cloak: ZOMG MUST IMPROVE COVER SAVE BY +1
Scout with Cloak: ZOMG MUST IMPROVE COVER SAVE BY +1
Scout with Cloak: ZOMG MUST IMPROVE COVER SAVE BY +1
Scout with Cloak: ZOMG MUST IMPROVE COVER SAVE BY +1
Scout with Cloak: ZOMG MUST IMPROVE COVER SAVE BY +1
Scout with Cloak: ZOMG MUST IMPROVE COVER SAVE BY +1
Scout with Cloak: ZOMG MUST IMPROVE COVER SAVE BY +1
Scout with Cloak: ZOMG MUST IMPROVE COVER SAVE BY +1
*Improve Cover Save by +1*
Tellion: Special Rule Applied
Scout with Cloak: Special Rule Applied
Scout with Cloak: Special Rule Applied
Scout with Cloak: Special Rule Applied
Scout with Cloak: Special Rule Applied
Scout with Cloak: Special Rule Applied
Scout with Cloak: Special Rule Applied
Scout with Cloak: Special Rule Applied
Scout with Cloak: Special Rule Applied
Scout with Cloak: Special Rule Applied

But, I know where this is going. This is just going to degenerate into the same Flamefest as the Astropath thread, where I state the rules, people make up stuff to try and make me look bad etc etc it gets heated then Frazzled comes and nukes the Thread, or I agree with someone and Iorek comes and bans me again.

@GWAR!: Just out of interest, what army/armies do you play?

Gwar! wrote:But, I know where this is going. This is just going to degenerate into the same Flamefest as the Astropath thread, where I state the rules, people make up stuff to try and make me look bad etc etc it gets heated then Frazzled comes and nukes the Thread, or I agree with someone and Iorek comes and bans me again.

Wow no need for melodrama here.

Okay so how is it that when you type all that garbage out you somehow think that you are giving the rules and not just your interpretation of it? You say that a simple +1 no matter how many models is RAW, but I don't think the language of the text actually says it. I have shown you why this is the case, because every model with the USR gives their unit +1 cover save, not just themselves. Since there is no external or internal limit on this improved cover save, there is no reason to say RAW limits this to +1. That would be a RAI limit.

Instead of posting useless nonesense as an attempt to convince me, why not cite the rules from which you are drawing the conclusion that the +1 only applies once? I feel that I have clearly outlined how I came to the conclusion that the benefits stack, but you have not. Could you please iterate your position more clearly with quotes for the rules as a basis for your conclusion?

J.Black wrote:@GWAR!: Just out of interest, what army/armies do you play?

Space Wolves exclusively for 10 years now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dracos wrote:Could you please iterate your position more clearly with quotes for the rules as a basis for your conclusion?

Simple. 40k is Permissive. Unless it says they do stack, they do not. You cannot say "It doesn't say they don't".

The rules state that the Stealth USR improves cover saves by +1 for the unit, not the model. That is the permission. In order to restrict that permission, you need a limit either externally (I.E in another rule) or internally. I see no such restriction in the rules.

edit: As an example, take Big choppa and the Furious charge USR. Each provide an additive bonus to strength. If additive bonuses don't stack and only one additive bonus is allowed, then they do not work together. IS it also your contention that FC and Big Choppas do not work together?

We know for sure that additive bonuses stack with multiplicative because it describes how to do this on p.7.

Dracos wrote:The rules state that the Stealth USR improves cover saves by +1. That is the permission. In order to restrict that permission, you need a limit either externally (I.E in another rule) or internally. I see no such restriction in the rules.

edit: As an example, take Big choppa and the Furious charge USR. Each provide an additive bonus to strength. If additive bonuses don't stack and only one additive bonus is allowed, then they do not work together. IS it also your contention that FC and Big Choppas do not work together?

We know for sure that additive bonuses stack with multiplicative because it describes how to do this on p.7.

Nice attempt. However, Modifiers stack from different sources because that is what the rules tell us to do. So FC and Big Choppa "stack", because in order to satisfy each special rule, you must apply both modifiers , having Furious Charge Twice does not, because once you add +1S+1I, both instances of the special rule are satisfied.

Are you implying that a Scout Squad with Camo Cloaks gets +10 to their cover save?

Gwar! wrote:Are you implying that a Scout Squad with Camo Cloaks gets +10 to their cover save?

Yes I am saying that is what RAW tells us because the bonus applies to the unit and not the model. Of course saves are limited to 2+, but according to the rules that is what it says. You must satisfy the rules for each model, and they each tell you to add +1. I really don't see how you can call interpreting it any other way as anything but RAI. If there is one, please cite the rule which limits bonuses and prevents them from stacking.

Again, I play this the way you and everyone else does. But reading this thread brought on the realization that the way everyone plays it seems to be not actually what the rules dictate.

Hoooold on, the USR rules only apply to the unit with the USR. Telion is a 'unit' on his own.

Nowhere in the rules does it say that an IC joining another unit means the whole entity benefits from the USR. In fact, on page 48 BRB it says that 'the unit's special rules are not conferred to the character, and the character's special rules are not conferred to the unit'. Except in the Eldar codex where it specifically says that karandras gives his ability to a squad of striking scorpions if he joins them.

Telion keeps his stealth and improves his own cover save. Not that of any unit he joins.

/waits to be told :S

Dracos wrote:Please cite the rule which limits bonuses and prevents them from stacking.

Cite a rule that specifically allows bonuses from two instances of the same rule to stack.

J.Black wrote:Hoooold on, the USR rules only apply to the unit with the USR. Telion is a 'unit' on his own.

Nowhere in the rules does it say that an IC joining another unit means the whole entity benefits from the USR. In fact, on page 48 BRB it says that 'the unit's special rules are not conferred to the character, and the character's special rules are not conferred to the unit'. Except in the Eldar codex where it specifically says that karandras gives his ability to a squad of striking scorpions if he joins them.

Telion keeps his stealth and improves his own cover save. Not that of any unit he joins.

/waits to be told :S

1) Tellion is not an IC
2) Stealth says "The units cover save is improved by +1" not models. Therefore, if even 1 Model has stealth, the whole unit benefits from the +1 to Cover Save