Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Everyone always thinks their armies deserve a boost for this or a boost for that.

I would argue that Tau are by far the weakest army in the game. Certainly for Tournament builds. They're great if you know what you are fighting but really suffer if you try to make them jack of all trades as they are sio reliant on fire power. Especially as every new codex seems to give a new army a way of assaulting you on turn 1 (or just massacring all your FWs and broadsides with JotWW Runepriests in drop pods)...

Compare with Orks were you can just spam boyz and cut through nearly any army or IG who can take umpteen Battlecannons and lay waste to hordes and MEQs alike...

Skinnattittar wrote:Everyone always thinks their armies deserve a boost for this or a boost for that. You never really hear someone admit their army is overpowered or something is under priced and they want GW to fix it.

My point? The fluff supports BS3 Tau but not BS4 Tau. They lack depth perception, which is extremely important when trying to fire weapons at long range. No depth perception means no ability to properly judge range or orientation to non-linear paths, such as aiming a rifle or tracking a target. So a Tau without a helmet would probably be BS2 or even BS1! But they have a whole slew of advanced tech at hand so it helps them cope and gives them BS3. Those with BS4 either have even more tech and/or have experience, in the same way as Guard Vets are BS4 to the regular Guard's BS3.

ok, new codex have made troop choices cheaper, id be happy w/ 8pts ea instead of 10 ea.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FlingitNow wrote:
However the impact of that would be big on how the Tau play (particularly FoF or Gunline). It means one Tau squad can expect to have a real chance of wiping out a Spacemarine Combat squad and 2 combining will generally kill about 9 marines requiring only 2 ML rather than 4.

This is significant because the best way to get ML into the army is with Pathfinders and the minimum unt size is 4. Which on average would get you 2 Mls a turn, meaning Tau could field more smaller units of firewarriors.

It would also mean the same for the suites and this is where the really big difference would be felt. They'd be a lot more independant. Deathrains could have flamers and still hit 8 out of 9 shots with the TL Missile pods. Shas'Els would be BS5 anyway again menaing you can save points on TA. The Hammerhead would have BS5 as standard! Broadsides would hit 8 out of 9 times as standard too!

Due to this Marker lights could be used to either help your firewarriors completely pummel a unit or help you Suites/Railheads ignore cover saves! Or destroy leadership for pinning, they'd be used far less for BS increases. This owuld make them far more useful as the BS increase is the first thing you have to use them for generally making that side of them almost redundant means you could pretty much strip cover from any unit you were shooting at...

my fire warriors rarely leave the transport, so its kind of moot point for me personally.
I already use the marklights to strip cover/leadership depending on what im firing at.. oo i can make you run? o my weapons already pop their armor saves? no point increasing bs, just take away cover.

oo i can make you run?

How? No marker light effect will help you make a unit run.

Ok you already use ML for that purpose then you're firing at BS3 or you only ever fire at vehicles?

Imagine a Unit or Helios firing at Space marines in cover with 2 MLs. If the unit has BS4 already you could probably use both to strip cover to 6+, but at BS3 you are better of suing at least one to make BS4 and then the other one can only change cover to 5+...

Granted when you're pie plating that boyz mob you are already using MLs for cover rather than BS but again the Hammerhead is already at BS4. Likewise Your Broadsides are at BS over 4 already due to twinlinked.

But a FW with BS4 would mean you'd start using them outside the Devilfish. However the point is not the effect on the FW but more the impact on the suits which are already a powerful unit. Also Tau Gunlines would be awesome even when everyone can turn 2 charge because that just puts everyone in rapidfire range for that one turn. Imagine 60 FW firing 2 shots at BS4 before you even use any marker lights!?!?

Personally, I strongly believe that game balance would be greatly improved if army lists would be more equitable. A standard troop choice from any army would have an equal shot at killing a troop choice from any other army. For example, a full squad of fire warriors should have the ability to take out a full squad of boys, marines, etc.

GW has this force chart that must be followed, why not make it useful? It sucks that my elite choices are needed to take out troop choices from any other army I play and my troop choices sit on the bench the whole game (FWs sit in the fish and fly around).

I find the markerlight thing a non-issue. As I've said before, it's really sad that the entire affectiveness of your troops is dependant upon making 4+ rolls to drop markerlight tokens on other units. Ok, I have 8 markerlights from my pathfinder squad; I hit with 3 or 4 then I can use the different effects such as the BS bump which entails more rolling of dice...etc.

If you're going to use markerlights, why not make them auto hits with limited frequency? Seriously, I can hit anything with a laserpointer.

Why all the rolling when IG just have to roll once for their orders to work at better than a 4+?

FlingitNow wrote:

oo i can make you run?

How? No marker light effect will help you make a unit run.

Granted when you're pie plating that boyz mob you are already using MLs for cover rather than BS but again the Hammerhead is already at BS4. Likewise Your Broadsides are at BS over 4 already due to twinlinked.

But a FW with BS4 would mean you'd start using them outside the Devilfish. However the point is not the effect on the FW but more the impact on the suits which are already a powerful unit. Also Tau Gunlines would be awesome even when everyone can turn 2 charge because that just puts everyone in rapidfire range for that one turn. Imagine 60 FW firing 2 shots at BS4 before you even use any marker lights!?!?

Pie plate, cover is determined from the center of the blast to any target it hits... so even if your getting 4+ cover from a direct fire from the hammer head, youd most likely get no cover from a blast.

marklight, -1 leadership is an option. and id rather use marklights on crisis suits than on the hammerhead thats pie plating...

Pie plate, cover is determined from the center of the blast to any target it hits... so even if your getting 4+ cover from a direct fire from the hammer head, youd most likely get no cover from a blast.

marklight, -1 leadership is an option. and id rather use marklights on crisis suits than on the hammerhead thats pie plating...

Wrong on both counts. Cover is still determined from the direction of the firer for the pie-plate. And -1 leadership is not an option if you've been using that you've been cheating. You can't just make up options! Read the options on page 29 of the codex and none of them effect leadership on morale checks.

Seriously these are pretty basic rules that you seem to have no-clue about.

FlingitNow wrote:
However the impact of that would be big on how the Tau play (particularly FoF or Gunline). It means one Tau squad can expect to have a real chance of wiping out a Spacemarine Combat squad and 2 combining will generally kill about 9 marines requiring only 2 ML rather than 4.

Ok, so at BS 3, 12 rapid firing FWs kill 2.7 marines. 24 Str 5 shots, killing 2.7 marines. 120 points to kill 47, when the ones shooting are supposed to be an exclusively ranged army.

Just to put it in perspective, 120 points of marines (7.5 marines), end up killing 3.33 Tau, or 33 points of Tau. So Tau have an slight advantage (wow 7.8% more efficient...), this is the only place they shine in. Everyone knows FWs die like gretchins in CC...

Marines get heavy weapons in the squads
Marines get saves against: Assault Cannons, Heavy Bolters, Autocannons, Gauss Cannons, Gauss Blasters, Psycannons, etc...
Marines have higher WS, BS, S, T, I, Sv and Ld.

Marines are the epitome of efficiency, all the dakka you get in a little 16 point package (15 if you're a Space Puppy).

There's nothing wrong with a ranged specialty army that actually does well at range.

Don't even get me started on Deathguard

FlingitNow wrote:
It would also mean the same for the suites and this is where the really big difference would be felt. They'd be a lot more independant. Deathrains could have flamers and still hit 8 out of 9 shots with the TL Missile pods. Shas'Els would be BS5 anyway again menaing you can save points on TA. The Hammerhead would have BS5 as standard! Broadsides would hit 8 out of 9 times as standard too!

Again.. shooty army is supposed to be shooty.
I don't like the idea of a BS 5 Railhead, so they can just remove the Targeting Array, but I am fine with TL BS 4 rails on the Broadsides. It's not hard to get cover from slow-moving Broadsides. Tau don't have Fast skimmers with Multimeltas, so aside from Railheads and Broadsides, there's really nothing.

FlingitNow wrote:Due to this Marker lights could be used to either help your firewarriors completely pummel a unit or help you Suites/Railheads ignore cover saves! Or destroy leadership for pinning, they'd be used far less for BS increases. This owuld make them far more useful as the BS increase is the first thing you have to use them for generally making that side of them almost redundant means you could pretty much strip cover from any unit you were shooting at...

So you sound like you have trouble with Tau. I have 4 armies; Dark Eldar, GKs, Necrons and Tau. Never played Tau with Tau, but none of my other three armies even sweat Tau. I'm not that good of a player, so that makes me think they need a boost.

So you sound like you have trouble with Tau.

I use Tau! I think they are pretty much the weakest army out there. Primarily because they are shooty and 40K is so assault biased. I just think BS4 FW and Railheads with BS5 (take away the TA and you can just add it for 5 points, which you ALWAYS would) is too much.

Granted the boost to the FW would be more marginal but the knock on effect on the suites would be pretty huge. I agree Tau need a boost, for my oppinion is that they are poor when asked to be an all takers army (look at the first post on this page). Though I think they are very efficient if geared to take on a specific army (nicely fitting in with the fluff).

So maybe some sort of multi TA than you buy for say 20 points and if your FW squad numbers 7 or more they fire at BS4 (so you wouldn't get the knock on effect on the suites).

Or (maybe even also) drop the Tau points to 8 or 9. I mean a sister of battle is only 1 point more is just as good at shooting, better armour, better leadership, better assault and has faith points which are better than MLs. That is just plain wrong!

Another option is you can chosse your weapon fit to suite opponent/mission. You can choose a standard fit Crisis for say 60 points and it has 3 or 4 options you can choose after rolling for mission and deployment to show how the Tau select weapons fit for purpose.

I don't think any of these would OP Tau or throw them out of balance and all would fit in nicely with the fluff.

I am guessing Mr. Killkrazy has never fired a weapon, because if you can't focus quickly on a target that dramatically compromises your depth perception. That is what your eyes are doing, by the way.

As for fluff not mattering, I guess you're right. But then GW could also say that IG Flak armor is actually a lot more rugged these days thanks to new manufacturing techniques and now gives all Guardsmen a 3+ armor save, and if you have a Priest they have been blessed and confer a 4+ Invulnerable save.

I mean, if we want to just start making stuff up, we CAN, but then things will get even more ridiculous than they are NOW with what fluff ALREADY exists.

Bolter rounds are now packed with more W.I.N. explosives and ball bearings. They are R36" S5 AP4 Small Blast, Rapid Fire. They also have the option to use F.L.A.M.E. rounds, which are S4 AP5 Sh2 Template.

Eldar have made recent advancements as well. All Shuriken weapons have AP2 Sh2 and strike all enemy models in a straight line from the firer to the weapon's maximum range. A wounded target that fails its saves is removed from the table and counts 2D6 Kill Points.

Orks have seen a recent explosion of population. All Ork Infantry models are half cost.

As for how I would handle Tau; make Firewarriors and Kroot cheaper. Fix their cloak thing by either getting rid of it, or make it ridiculous points (roaming 4+ cover save? Not exceptable), 50pts or something.

Yeah DP should be more points. 50 is too much given they only work if the enemy is more than 12" away, 15-20 is about right.

Skinnattittar wrote:I am guessing Mr. Killkrazy has never fired a weapon, because if you can't focus quickly on a target that dramatically compromises your depth perception. That is what your eyes are doing, by the way.

.

You guess wrong. I was on my house rifle team at school and my university archery team, and I have shot various types pistols and rifles for fun.

If you look at optical physics, you will see that the farther away a target is, the less effort it takes to focus on it.

Bump BS up to a base 4 and ditch the TA entirely from the codex. OR

Make another drone that affects FW's, a targetting array drone that links up with the squade they're attached to and provides a +1 bump in BS; make it cost 15-20pts.

@ Killkrazy : I would have to repectfully disagree with your final deduction however that it would have little to do with Tau's visual deficiency. It would still affect your ability to aim and even more effect their ability to identify targets at range.

agnosto wrote:Bump BS up to a base 4 and ditch the TA entirely from the codex. OR
Make another drone that affects FW's, a targetting array drone that links up with the squade they're attached to and provides a +1 bump in BS; make it cost 15-20pts.

Guardsmen with R24 S3 AP- Rapid Fire lasguns paid 10 points a squad for +0.5BS. Tau with R30 S5 AP5 Rapid Fire, Pulse Rifles should have to pay at least 25+pts for a whole BS point. Guardsmen are also pathetic in assault (barely better than Tau, on par if not inferior once you consider the Tau's 4+ armor save to Guard's 5+), come in smaller units, have an inferior save against projectiles, and can't use marker-lights.

FlingitNow wrote:Yeah DP should be more points. 50 is too much given they only work if the enemy is more than 12" away, 15-20 is about right.

I would completely disagree with that pricing. Extra Armor used to be about that price range, I think it still is... And so what "...they only work if the enemy is more than 12" away..." That's how far the vast majority of attacks against them will be taken from! That would be like saying "Lasguns and First Rank Fire! Second Rank Fire! are too effective at 12 inches." I would more realistically suggest the whole thing be done away with and they get something akin to smoke-launchers. Sorry, but it's a ridiculously good option, especially for under 40pts. Give anything else a permanent 4+ Cover Save against ranged weapons (>12" away), and people would cry bloody murder! Not that I don't think GW would make this a standard free upgrade, but I still won't like it.

Tau aren't a bad army, they're just not an easy army, which isn't a bad thing! Each of their options are strong when used correctly, or even just "averagely," and their specialist weapons rock socks! I watch a lot of Tau players and they make a lot of mistakes that the Guard learned long ago. The biggest being that you're going to lose models! Now I am not saying they are not without faults! Their biggest and the one I would say is the only big thing to fix next to the bugs things they have, is the price of Fire Warriors. If Guardsmen are 5pts, then i would say a Fire Warrior is forth:

-1pt for inferior Hand to Hand ability
+2 for the Armor
+2 for the increased weapon Strength
+1 for the superior weapon AP

So, around 9pts for a Fire Warrior.

Proposal : Base Squad of four plus the Sergeant, 50pts and +9pts per additional Fire Warrior. So Squad of 12? : 50pts+(7)9pts=113pts

The base squad is a bit expensive per model, which encourages larger squads (I said around 9pts for a Fire Warrior, not "9pts for a Fire Warrior", and stops them from being too cheap.

@Skinnattittar

Nah 50 points is still way too much for a DP. They are useless against Meltas which are your biggest threat (Lascannons for example only have 11% chancwe of taking out an Hammerhead if they hit, so an IG LC has less than a 6% chance of hurting the Hammerhead without a DP).

A DP on a Piranha for instance is totally useless for them 5 points is too much...

I'd agree with a FW being about 9 points but the unit should start at 6 men not five. So a Shas'ui plus 5 Shas'la for 60 points, then 9 points for every Shas'la after that would be fine and about right.

However this is just plain wrong:

Guardsmen with R24 S3 AP- Rapid Fire lasguns paid 10 points a squad for +0.5BS. Tau with R30 S5 AP5 Rapid Fire, Pulse Rifles should have to pay at least 25+pts for a whole BS point. Guardsmen are also pathetic in assault (barely better than Tau, on par if not inferior once you consider the Tau's 4+ armor save to Guard's 5+), come in smaller units, have an inferior save against projectiles, and can't use marker-lights.

Reasons this is wrong, Guardsmen pay 10 points for plus 0.5BS. However a Guardsman is already HALF the points of a FW so to improve them should cost more as they are already under priced. Though I must admit I'm not sure which upgrade you are counting for 10 points?

Also a Guardsman is much better in CC because of initiative and the ability to combine squads. This gives them 2 advantages. Firstly they are far less likely to be sweeping advanced and 2 they can congregate in large enough numbers to put off smaller units assaulting them. 30 Guardsmen is about the price of 12 kitted out FW and they would nail then in CC and probably do just as well at range too.

Also the 20 Combined TA for the FW would be reliant on the squad numbering 7 or more so as you lost numbers you'd lose the bonus so about 20 points I think is bang on for my suggestion.

So lets cut that chance in half? Something none of the other races have? It's just a ridiculous piece of wargear for a vehicle that nerfs all BUT melta guns, which are less than half of the weapons threatening them. Sorry, but no-dice. It should just be discarded.

I am not talking about the current Guardsmen, but the same edition Guardsmen as Tau, the 6ppm ones which were FAR from under priced. Now they are a little under priced, which tends to look just as bad as being WAY under priced.

So lets cut that chance in half? Something none of the other races have? It's just a ridiculous piece of wargear for a vehicle that nerfs all BUT melta guns, which are less than half of the weapons threatening them. Sorry, but no-dice. It should just be discarded.

My point was firing Lascannons at them is pretty pointless anyway. The 4+ save doesn't stop everything it just stops half of things from more than 12" which to be honest the Vehicle as a fair chance of getting a cover save from anyway... Lets be honest here the point is that DPs in general only help you against weapons that aren't really much of a threat anyway. The weapons that will turn your Hammerhead into a paperweight are totally unaffected by the DPs. The vaste majority of things that are a threat to the hammerhead ignore the DP so is it really that good?

Tau are pretty much the weakest army out there and this is their one real advantage over everyone else why take it away? SMs can assault 44" in turn one I'd say that was far more useful and cheesy than a DP!

Lashes and Plague Marines are also far more cheesy. IG first turn assaulting with Vendettas like with the SM first turn assault can pretty much gaurantee the Tau player is stuffed or that his DPs are useless by giving everyone meltas...

I'll tell you what is actually under priced: Sisters of battle. For 1 point more than Tau you get:

The same shooting capability (-1S but +1BS) but at a slightly lower range.

3+ Armour save compared to 4+

Vastely superior CC ability

The ability to use faith points which are better than Marker lights

All for 1 point!!! Madness. I don't think IG are particualrly under priced compared with say Orks or most things. But FWs are over priced, DPs are under priced but don't turn Railheads into the all conquering vehicles you are trying to make them out to be.

In my view Skinnittar's proposed cost of 9 for an FW is probably about right -- I would argue 8 on the basis that the armour value is not worth that much when there are plenty of cover saves for everyone.

However cheaper FW are not what is needed. We need more effective FW. My favourite idea is to give the pulse rifle a rapid fire range of 15 inches. That would give the FW a much better battlefield role without any complex adjustments to points, special rules for H2H defence and so on.

Skinnattittar wrote:Guardsmen with R24 S3 AP- Rapid Fire lasguns paid 10 points a squad for +0.5BS. Tau with R30 S5 AP5 Rapid Fire, Pulse Rifles should have to pay at least 25+pts for a whole BS point. Guardsmen are also pathetic in assault (barely better than Tau, on par if not inferior once you consider the Tau's 4+ armor save to Guard's 5+), come in smaller units, have an inferior save against projectiles, and can't use marker-lights.

Seriously, we're comparing apples and oranges here. Most armies have a wide selection of troop choices compared to tau that help to overcome whatever difficulties they have. Tau have no compensation for lacking in close combat.

Yes, we can shoot but we do it poorly compared to other armies with higher BS, orders, and tactics.

Markerlights are useful but not a gaurantee if you roll badly.

The DP is nice but then we only have 2 kinds of tanks to use it on ('fish and 'heads), IG has how many tanks and how much cheaper than the Tau? I would love to be able to field an executioner (?), I love the massive amounts of small templates they can generate.

IG has heavy weapons teams with mortars and other crowd control weapons, access to close combat goodness that includes power weapons, the list goes on. Tau have Kroot which have no way to really take it to a marine; heck giving a shaper a powerklaw would be fantastic and I'd never gripe again about close combat.

The problem with the current iteration of the Tau is that they are not quite good at anything. They have nice weapons but a poor BS so miss 1/2 the time or more and powerful weapons in a game all about coversaves is useless. I've seen guard units do more damage than a FW unit just based upon the volume of fire being generated. We have the kroot as our close combat specialist but they don't have any options that help them with heavily armored opponents and have no save whatsoever (don't even try the 6+ the shaper can give for +1pt per model).

Meh.

agnosto

I have to agree with everthing you've just said

agnosto wrote:

Skinnattittar wrote:Guardsmen with R24 S3 AP- Rapid Fire lasguns paid 10 points a squad for +0.5BS. Tau with R30 S5 AP5 Rapid Fire, Pulse Rifles should have to pay at least 25+pts for a whole BS point. Guardsmen are also pathetic in assault (barely better than Tau, on par if not inferior once you consider the Tau's 4+ armor save to Guard's 5+), come in smaller units, have an inferior save against projectiles, and can't use marker-lights.

Seriously, we're comparing apples and oranges here. Most armies have a wide selection of troop choices compared to tau that help to overcome whatever difficulties they have. Tau have no compensation for lacking in close combat.
Yes, we can shoot but we do it poorly compared to other armies with higher BS, orders, and tactics.
Markerlights are useful but not a gaurantee if you roll badly.
The DP is nice but then we only have 2 kinds of tanks to use it on ('fish and 'heads), IG has how many tanks and how much cheaper than the Tau? I would love to be able to field an executioner (?), I love the massive amounts of small templates they can generate.
IG has heavy weapons teams with mortars and other crowd control weapons, access to close combat goodness that includes power weapons, the list goes on. Tau have Kroot which have no way to really take it to a marine; heck giving a shaper a powerklaw would be fantastic and I'd never gripe again about close combat.
The problem with the current iteration of the Tau is that they are not quite good at anything. They have nice weapons but a poor BS so miss 1/2 the time or more and powerful weapons in a game all about coversaves is useless. I've seen guard units do more damage than a FW unit just based upon the volume of fire being generated. We have the kroot as our close combat specialist but they don't have any options that help them with heavily armored opponents and have no save whatsoever (don't even try the 6+ the shaper can give for +1pt per model).
Meh.

If by apples to oranges you mean tangerines to oranges, than you're probably correct. What access Guard has to hand-to-hand weapons is relatively negligible, though quite more than Tau, but that's like tossing a stone instead of a small boulder at Hoover Dam. It does SOMETHING, but I don't think anyone is going to much worry except for your sanity. In both cases.

Tau and Guard have suffered the same problems, almost at parallel. As for DP?s (I am not a fan of acronyms when the full name is never given, even if I know what you mean), if they are so useless, and Lascannons so pitiful against them (which they aren't, and you know you are a fool for saying that or are completely detached from reality) and mean nothing against meltaguns (which are the only two scenarios you seem to think exist), then it wouldn't be a big deal to just get rid of DPs or propose the Hammerheads and Devilfish should just always get a 4+ save at all times against everything? It's known at cyclical logic, and it's rather foolish. If you have nothing to fear then you don't need it, then why defend it so vigorously?

As a Tau player I would always want that 4+ save against Lascannons if I could, and as a Guard player I would always want them to NOT have that 4+ save. So by that rather basic fair logic, the DP is worth something.

Skinnattittar wrote:If by apples to oranges you mean tangerines to oranges, than you're probably correct. What access Guard has to hand-to-hand weapons is relatively negligible, though quite more than Tau, but that's like tossing a stone instead of a small boulder at Hoover Dam. It does SOMETHING, but I don't think anyone is going to much worry except for your sanity. In both cases.

Tau and Guard have suffered the same problems, almost at parallel. As for DP?s (I am not a fan of acronyms when the full name is never given, even if I know what you mean), if they are so useless, and Lascannons so pitiful against them (which they aren't, and you know you are a fool for saying that or are completely detached from reality) and mean nothing against meltaguns (which are the only two scenarios you seem to think exist), then it wouldn't be a big deal to just get rid of DPs or propose the Hammerheads and Devilfish should just always get a 4+ save at all times against everything? It's known at cyclical logic, and it's rather foolish. If you have nothing to fear then you don't need it, then why defend it so vigorously?

As a Tau player I would always want that 4+ save against Lascannons if I could, and as a Guard player I would always want them to NOT have that 4+ save. So by that rather basic fair logic, the DP is worth something.

Regarding close combat abilities; IG something is much better than the Tau nothing. I would much more prefer some ability to take action in close combat over the inability to do anything. As I mentioned before, Kroot are barely useful without a power weapon option.

Most of your second paragraph had nothing whatsoever to do with anything I posted; perhaps you meant to infer that some other poster is "detached from reality" (passive agressive much?). The only thing I mentioned regarding DPs was regarding the sparse variety of Tau mechanized units versus other armies. Tau are only able to field a maximum of 3 different types of tank, 1 fast (piranha), 1 heavy (hammerhead), and 1 transport (devilfish); please note that for functional gaming, a Skyray is nearly worthless so I left it out. I would love for Tau to have cheap transport such as Rhinos or heavy tanks such as Land Raiders but we don't so disruption pods are what we have. Sure, I get a hammerhead for 150+ points that will probably beat a land raider but it's a paper lion with 13 front armor; 1 point makes a large difference especially considering marine and IG tanks have several weapons systems available.

Yes, we would all like to have a 4+ save against everything; I suppose that's why GW made it so easy in the latest rules to acquire just that.

agnosto wrote:Regarding close combat abilities; IG something is much better than the Tau nothing. I would much more prefer some ability to take action in close combat over the inability to do anything. As I mentioned before, Kroot are barely useful without a power weapon option.

Most of your second paragraph had nothing whatsoever to do with anything I posted; perhaps you meant to infer that some other poster is "detached from reality" (passive agressive much?). The only thing I mentioned regarding DPs was regarding the sparse variety of Tau mechanized units versus other armies. Tau are only able to field a maximum of 3 different types of tank, 1 fast (piranha), 1 heavy (hammerhead), and 1 transport (devilfish); please note that for functional gaming, a Skyray is nearly worthless so I left it out. I would love for Tau to have cheap transport such as Rhinos or heavy tanks such as Land Raiders but we don't so disruption pods are what we have. Sure, I get a hammerhead for 150+ points that will probably beat a land raider but it's a paper lion with 13 front armor; 1 point makes a large difference especially considering marine and IG tanks have several weapons systems available.

Yes, we would all like to have a 4+ save against everything; I suppose that's why GW made it so easy in the latest rules to acquire just that.

For a relativistic statement you need context. In general, Guard and Tau are extremely similar in close combat vs. just about anything else. Now, fighting each other hand to hand, well they're almost evenly matched. I am, of course, talking Guardsmen v. Firewarriors. Yes, Guard squads can pick up a power weapon for their sergeant, but for 10pts with WS, S, and T value of three, not much compared to Space Marines or even Eldar Guardians, just basic really. So for 10pts, in my long experience, unless you plan on putting them in a fight with Space Marines, they are a little over priced, and you're better served by buying more Guardsmen (example, five Sgt.s buying power weapons is equal to another squad of Guardsmen).

And Tau do have close-combat options: Kroot and Crisis Suits. Kroot have their problems, duh! But if you're proposing rules, fix them, they're your close combat specialists, which fits the fluff, not the Fire Warriors, which greatly disdain hand to hand combat and aren't supposed to be very good at it anyhow. Crisis suits come in with their own pros and cons, but I have seen them do generally well against Guardsmen and Marines (save against Power Fists, but nothing stands up well against those so it's a wash).

As for DPs; if it didn't seem like it was addressed to you is because it wasn't, I meant none of those things towards you. As for "passive aggressive," no, that was just regular "civil aggressive" and I don't particularly care who knows that I use it when I feel it is applicable, so please keep your own passive aggressive comments about "passive aggressive" comments to yourself. At least I was not being hypocritical (I say in a "civil aggressive" manner).

This thread had devolved into a child's bickering match. I am excusing myself from it before it becomes un-civil. Any reasonable comments anyone has, they are welcome to PM them to me. But please refrain from trying to harass me. I will read you PM, but this is your warning, I will not reply and simply follow Dakka guidelines for dealing with harassment (yes, I will tattle on you, I'm getting too old to deal with childish harassment). This paragraph is not necessarily directed at anyone. Thank you for calling and have a nice day!

As it appears that you no longer wish to participate in the discussion, I suppose I'll just have to address my thoughts to myself; if for no other reason than my own closure. That's ok, I don't mind talking to myself.

Skinnattittar wrote:For a relativistic statement you need context. In general, Guard and Tau are extremely similar in close combat vs. just about anything else. Now, fighting each other hand to hand, well they're almost evenly matched. I am, of course, talking Guardsmen v. Firewarriors. Yes, Guard squads can pick up a power weapon for their sergeant, but for 10pts with WS, S, and T value of three, not much compared to Space Marines or even Eldar Guardians, just basic really. So for 10pts, in my long experience, unless you plan on putting them in a fight with Space Marines, they are a little over priced, and you're better served by buying more Guardsmen (example, five Sgt.s buying power weapons is equal to another squad of Guardsmen).

Yes, I think we can agree that firewarriors, in their current iteration are slightly overpriced.

Skinnattittar wrote:And Tau do have close-combat options: Kroot and Crisis Suits. Kroot have their problems, duh! But if you're proposing rules, fix them, they're your close combat specialists, which fits the fluff, not the Fire Warriors, which greatly disdain hand to hand combat and aren't supposed to be very good at it anyhow. Crisis suits come in with their own pros and cons, but I have seen them do generally well against Guardsmen and Marines (save against Power Fists, but nothing stands up well against those so it's a wash).

In a previous post, I did offer a solution to the Kroot by offering a power weapon upgrade to the shaper. Seems fair to me and not over powering and I did mention that Kroot are the Tau close combat specialists so no argument there either. Crisis suits have great strength but no close combat ability, doesn't make sense; it makes more sense for them to have a 4 strength and a 5 toughness instead of vice versa.

Skinnattittar wrote:As for DPs; if it didn't seem like it was addressed to you is because it wasn't, I meant none of those things towards you. As for "passive aggressive," no, that was just regular "civil aggressive" and I don't particularly care who knows that I use it when I feel it is applicable, so please keep your own passive aggressive comments about "passive aggressive" comments to yourself. At least I was not being hypocritical (I say in a "civil aggressive" manner).

If you will read your post, you only quoted me so I made the reasonable conclusion that the comments were addressed to myself. If you were speaking to someone else, I had no way of knowing. From the frequence of it in your post, I can see that you have taken umbrage with my statement that you were being passive aggressive. Please be assured that it was in response to your comment regarding being "detached from reality" which seemed to be directed at me. You may dislike acronyms, I dislike ambiguity as much and feel that the whole misunderstanding could have been avoided if you had directed your comments specifically to your intended target. I; however, would be interested to know how I acted the hypocrite, alas we shall never know. And here you even admit to being agressive first which leads us to our final point...

Skinnattittar wrote:This thread had devolved into a child's bickering match. I am excusing myself from it before it becomes un-civil. Any reasonable comments anyone has, they are welcome to PM them to me. But please refrain from trying to harass me. I will read you PM, but this is your warning, I will not reply and simply follow Dakka guidelines for dealing with harassment (yes, I will tattle on you, I'm getting too old to deal with childish harassment). This paragraph is not necessarily directed at anyone. Thank you for calling and have a nice day!

What a non sequitur; if you didn't wish to further participate in the conversation you could have simply said nothing, instead you have ungraciously bowed out and determined that you should get a parting shot. Well done sir and the uncalled for threat, unless some miscreant has perpetrated some malicious contact, icing on the cake. I hope your day is infinitely more pleasant.

Skinnattittar wrote:This thread had devolved into a child's bickering match. I am excusing myself from it before it becomes un-civil. Any reasonable comments anyone has, they are welcome to PM them to me. But please refrain from trying to harass me. I will read you PM, but this is your warning, I will not reply and simply follow Dakka guidelines for dealing with harassment (yes, I will tattle on you, I'm getting too old to deal with childish harassment). This paragraph is not necessarily directed at anyone. Thank you for calling and have a nice day!

What a non sequitur; if you didn't wish to further participate in the conversation you could have simply said nothing, instead you have ungraciously bowed out and determined that you should get a parting shot. Well done sir and the uncalled for threat, unless some miscreant has perpetrated some malicious contact, icing on the cake. I hope your day is infinitely more pleasant.

"Tau have poor eysight"? really?
I've never heard of that.
Where does it say that?

This thread had devolved into a child's bickering match. I am excusing myself from it before it becomes un-civil. Any reasonable comments anyone has, they are welcome to PM them to me. But please refrain from trying to harass me. I will read you PM, but this is your warning, I will not reply and simply follow Dakka guidelines for dealing with harassment (yes, I will tattle on you, I'm getting too old to deal with childish harassment). This paragraph is not necessarily directed at anyone. Thank you for calling and have a nice day!

But you are the only one that has been aggressive in anyway.

I pointed out that Lascannons have a very small chance of doing damage against a Hammerhead so getting a 4+ save against them is beneficial but not game changing.

Having it against Brightlances is useful but due to Eldar mobility again getting within 12" shouldn't be a problem for them. Against melta weapons or CC (the 2 things that actually take out Hammerheads 90% of the time) the DP is useless.

Again orbital bombardment again it is very useful but not game winning. Your hatred of the DP seems somewhat bizarre as whilst it is under priced it is not a huge advantage when you consider how often tanks get cover saves anyway, it just allows the Tau player to be more aggressive in his deployment. Take it away and with the Multitrakwer the Tau player could just as easily deploy it in cover and move 12" into an appropriate firing position in turn 1 and still fire...

They are useful and give Tau the ability to keep their devilfish in the game for scoring later on. REmember compare with the Eldar shoving 5 DAs in all their vehicles and making them scoring means they can often have 6 scoring units all with heavy firepower. The Devilfish has little firepower so to use this tactic we are going to have far less scoring units as we have to spend points on firepower elsewhere. The Serpents get their energy shield we get the DP which is probably better but balanced out by the fact we'd have far fewer scoring units and the scoring units themselves aren't a threat...

To claim that Guard are no better in combat than FWs is just laughable. Ignoring the fact you can take power weapons, fists, flamers etc to help you in an assault you get twice as many attacks at higher weapon skill. Guardsmen can also throw weight of numbers into an assault by grouping their squads. 10 assault marines might think twice about assaulting 40 guardsmen particularly if their is a fist or 2 in there, where as just 5 assault marines would easily dispatch 12 Firewarriors no matter how they were tooled up... Heck 5 CC scouts would wipe them out!

So inconclusion the DP isn't the game winner you are making out but gives the Tau a unique bit of wargear to help out the one ace they have in the Hammerhead. IG have plenty of better options than Tau and are one of the strongest armies in the game, where as the Tau are pretty much the weakest.
I really don't think there is any need for threats or agression OK we disagree, no need for anyone to get upset about it. It's only a game not life or death (like say football )

lordrevege wrote:"Tau have poor eysight"? really?
I've never heard of that.
Where does it say that?

It is hinted at in a couple of sources. It's a sort of general meme to excuse the Tau only being BS3 when realistically a hunter species who train relentlessly for war, totally ignoring H2H, and have the best ranged weapon technology in the galaxy might logically be BS4.

Don't worry about it. The pulse rifle being S5 compensates.

Anyway, back on topic.

Kroot will never be very good at H2H without major changes such as equipping them with power weapons and jump packs. This would spoil the flavour of the Tau army and would result in Tau players taking masses of Ork style Kroot hordes.

Kroot need a few basic but not overpowering changes, making their rifles assault rather then rapid fire would be a good start, perhaps giving them at least ork level(6+)armour as well.

Jack

I would tone shapers down with less wounds and about the same cost and allow them the option of a power weapon; if you only have 1 power weapon per 20 kroot, that's not op....maybe make krootox bites rending attacks.

Firstly BS4 isn't warrented on Fire Warriors. BS3 is the skill level for a well trained soldier. Thats what Fire Warriors are (just like guardsmen and eldar guardians). Considering all the minor bonus and disadvantages they're at the exactly right skill level for their background.

Secondly, bumping their BS to 4 wouldn't actually help that much is increasing the effectiveness of pulse rifles by 16.6% really going to save the day? No. The problem with firewarriors isn't that they're no good at shooting its that they end up in hand to hand, lose combat, get run down and all die. (AKA Necron warrior syndrome).

So what you actually want to do is stop whining about wanting to have BS4 and ask GW for something useful like the ability to sacrifice a drone in the unit to get +2 to the initaitive roll to escape combat or something.