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Dark Elves:
1: Multiple units have the ability to carry a 25 pt magic standard however there are only 3 of those and 1 of them is for Corsairs only and another is one use only. (add more standards)

2:Give more core troop choices(witch elves should be core ) or give back the ability to mix spear men and repeater crossbowmen in the same unit for more variety.

Murfi10 wrote:Dark Elves:
1: Multiple units have the ability to carry a 25 pt magic standard however there are only 3 of those and 1 of them is for Corsairs only and another is one use only. (add more standards)

2:Give more core troop choices(witch elves should be core ) or give back the ability to mix spear men and repeater crossbowmen in the same unit for more variety.

I agree with change one, disagree with change 2.

O&G: Don't turn Animosity into what Unruly turned into.

Minsc wrote:O&G: Don't turn Animosity into what Unruly turned into.

And what did Unruly turn into?

Eldar Own wrote:

Murfi10 wrote:Dark Elves:
1: Multiple units have the ability to carry a 25 pt magic standard however there are only 3 of those and 1 of them is for Corsairs only and another is one use only. (add more standards)

2:Give more core troop choices(witch elves should be core ) or give back the ability to mix spear men and repeater crossbowmen in the same unit for more variety.

I agree with change one, disagree with change 2.

Which part of 2 do you not agree with. The witch elves,mixture or maybe both?

Murfi10 wrote:

Eldar Own wrote:

Murfi10 wrote:Dark Elves:
1: Multiple units have the ability to carry a 25 pt magic standard however there are only 3 of those and 1 of them is for Corsairs only and another is one use only. (add more standards)

2:Give more core troop choices(witch elves should be core ) or give back the ability to mix spear men and repeater crossbowmen in the same unit for more variety.

I agree with change one, disagree with change 2.

Which part of 2 do you not agree with. The witch elves,mixture or maybe both?

I dont agree with the mixing, i wouldnt do it. I wouldnt mind witch elves being core but i think they're fine as they are.

Alright, this time I am going to be serious.

I think slayers need options. Their goal is to die in a glorious combat, right? Getting shot full of arrows before the fight isn't very glorious. I think maybe +5 points per model or something to get runic tatoos that gives them a 5+ ward save vs shooting and magic missiles wouldn't be too bad. How about the option of a magic banner? 50 pts would get the ward save for the whole unit, or a banner that makes them frenzied or +1 to their movement characteristic. I still like a mechanical mount for the master engineer like a bull, I don't think it would look stupid and I think they can make it look different enough from the juggernaut, but to each their own.

Still want to see more beasts for the wood elves too.

boogeyman wrote:I still like a mechanical mount for the master engineer like a bull, I don't think it would look stupid and I think they can make it look different enough from the juggernaut, but to each their own.

I've said many times, but i strongly disagree with this change, it would look stupid and isn't dwarfy enough. I don't really think a master engineer needs a mount, after all he's not really a CC fighter, a gyrocopter would be ok but not really needed but a bull would be too similar to a Juggernaut, no matter now different they try to make it.

Dark Elves -

Hero class Assassin - Give him the core stat line but also give him more point options for magic items

"Core" Assassin - reduce his stat line somewhat and his points

More Magic Standards - for no good reason, i just love magic standards

Bump up the Hydra 25 pts, bringing it to 200 (@ 175 its the best unit for points IN THE GAME!)

Allow Executioners the option to take a 50 pt banner, also give armor upgrade options (+3 pts/model) for both Executioners and BG for a 4+ armor save

Bring BG up to Strength 4

High Elves

Make Archers usable. Why GW why are they fricking 11 points per model?
Silver Helms. Include the shield to the 21 pts cost. Then they would be almost usable compared to Dragon Princes. AND give an option to make them Core.
Increase the BS of Shadow Warriors, do something to them. Because they are not viable now.
White Lions whould be immune to fear (everyone has killed a White Lion and then they are charged by Zombies- Oh God) BUT increase their point cost.
Sword Masters are too good to be true. Maybe they could nerf them a bit, maybe only WS of 5?

bd1085 wrote:Dark Elves - Hero class Assassin - Give him the core stat line but also give him more point options for magic items

Erm, what about Shadowblade?

bd1085 wrote:Bring BG up to stregnth 4

Well there S4 with halberds anyway, this would make them too OP IMO, after all S4 is reserved for the masters and dreadlords.

nyyman wrote:Make archers usable. Why GW why are they fricking 11 points per model?

Can't they fire in two ranks or something?

skaven: more magic items the list really is small.

that and fix all the mistakes and blurred areas, the book has so may holes you'd think it was a sive.

nyyman wrote:High Elves

Make Archers usable. Why GW why are they fricking 11 points per model?

Because you only have to take two units in a 2k+ game, only one in a sub-2k game, on top of being able to take more specials and rares than anyone else.

Edit: Oh yeah, and these mighty archers have ASF!

nyyman wrote:High Elves
Make Archers usable. Why GW why are they fricking 11 points per model?

I could partially understand them making them expensive...

But this is just one point shy of twice the point cost of Orc Arrer Boyz. I could take a block of 20 Orc Arrers for the price of 11-ish HE archers. Who would you put your faith in, the block that can possibly get three ranks & outnumber / probably at least two ranks & outnumber by the time combat's reached, as well as S4 in the first round, or the ASF bowmen who are about as statistically likely to wound the Orc Arrers at a range as Orc Arrers are to wound them?

I will agree with this request, as - even though HE already have their own advantages and don't need to take many archers - there's no reason why Orc Archers should be much (if not) more cost-effective choice in pretty much every scenario except putting out minimal core choices than a HE archer. Hell, at least give them something like +1 Strength at half-range, reduce their points, armor piercing (expert shots), or something.

About firing in ranks: I think they removed that rule? I know Spearmen can still fight in an extra rank, but I don't know if archers can still shoot in such. Even if so, that doesn't help them much until you get into unit sizes greater than 10, and in that case you're putting out even more points for the archers (132 for 12, assuming 6x2, or for a longer 8x2 we're getting into 165 for about 1-2 kills a turn against anything T3 or 4 with a 4+ save or better). The only way they're going to be bringing VP's themselves is by shooting, so assuming about 2 kills / turn and they can fire all six turns, that 165pt unit is going to have to be killing around 13-14 points with each model shot to break even. If they're killing stuff like Swordsmen, Orc Boyz, Clanrats, and so on, they're just not making up 13-14 points a turn each turn on average unless they're rolling exceptionally luckily.

Minsc wrote:About firing in ranks: I think they removed that rule? I know Spearmen can still fight in an extra rank, but I don't know if archers can still shoot in such. Even if so, that doesn't help them much until you get into unit sizes greater than 10, and in that case you're putting out even more points for the archers (132 for 12, assuming 6x2, or for a longer 8x2 we're getting into 165 for about 1-2 kills a turn against anything T3 or 4 with a 4+ save or better). The only way they're going to be bringing VP's themselves is by shooting, so assuming about 2 kills / turn and they can fire all six turns, that 165pt unit is going to have to be killing around 13-14 points with each model shot to break even. If they're killing stuff like Swordsmen, Orc Boyz, Clanrats, and so on, they're just not making up 13-14 points a turn each turn on average unless they're rolling exceptionally luckily.

Yeah, i wasnt sure about that. I thinki heard/read it somewhere but that could have been what it used to be.

Eldar Own wrote:

bd1085 wrote:Dark Elves - Hero class Assassin - Give him the core stat line but also give him more point options for magic items

Erm, what about Shadowblade?

bd1085 wrote:Bring BG up to stregnth 4

Well there S4 with halberds anyway, this would make them too OP IMO, after all S4 is reserved for the masters and dreadlords.

Shadowblade is pretty damn expensive for a Hero choice and not worth the points.

CoK's, Executioners, Charioteers, Assassin all have base strength 4. We're talkin Black Guard here, the most hateful, deadliest, hardest mf'ers in the army and they can't even work out enough to get to strength 4? wtf...

bd1085 wrote:
CoK's, Executioners, Charioteers, Assassin all have base strength 4. We're talkin Black Guard here, the most hateful, deadliest, hardest mf'ers in the army and they can't even work out enough to get to strength 4? wtf...

They already have Eternal Hatred, Warrior Elite, 2 Attacks base, ITP for 13 points - added to that the option for a nasty magic banner. They're hardy enough as is.

As for Assassins - their stats/abilities FAR outweigh their costs as is. While troops can't benefit from his Ld, this guy can wreck entire units by himself. Including the cost of the model he replaces, that tops him off at 115 points base for stats that are even better than a Lord. Unless there was a significant reduction in stats, I wouldn't reduce the points on these guys.

Kirbinator wrote:Because you only have to take two units in a 2k+ game, only one in a sub-2k game, on top of being able to take more specials and rares than anyone else.
Edit: Oh yeah, and these mighty archers have ASF!

I was not complaining about the book, only the unit.
Or should I quote everyone who wanna make DE book even better?
The thing is, High Elves have a good reason for having lower Core requirement. BECAUSE THEY ARE (almost) USELESS.
AND the ASF won't help if you're having only 10 guys assuming they all get to attack. Woo, I kill, like, 2 Night Goblins?
Seaguards are for (correct if I'm wrong) only one point higher cost so much more useful (though sitll not ultra-useful). For one point, you get light armour, spear and martial prowness (although 6" lower range) and for one point more you get a shield.
Could someone please explain why I should use Archers when I can use these beauties?

Not personal attack to anybody

nyyman wrote:AND the ASF won't help if you're having only 10 guys assuming they all get to attack. Woo, I kill, like, 2 Night Goblins?

Night Goblins that fear you if reduced to under 20 models, with Leadership 5. And, actually, assuming no netters they're going to kill (if we assume 10 models attack) 3-4 Night Goblins a turn. Who, in return, are killing 1-2.

If you wanted to make Night Goblins look better, you should have mentioned that 30 Night Goblin Archers w/ Full Command - or 20 Night Goblin Archers w/ 2 Fanatics - cost just as much as 10 HE Archers vanilla.

40kenthusiast wrote:
Ogres need SOMETHING. They've just got serious, serious problems taking on any modern army. They can't hold, and they can't get the charge vs. cav.

My idea for them is army wide stubborn. A monumental buff, but I think they are bad enough to warrant it. With stubborn they could actually take charges and hold the enemy long enough to let flank chargers in, while still being able to flee for their usual flee and flank. They could hold and fight if their initial charge didn't break the foe. It'd be great.

Army wide stubborn, yes please While it sounds fakking nuts at first, I think it totally plays if you just plopped it on top of the book as is, and isn't game breaking with how fragile ogres are. Very little of the list isn't a T4 naked guy (heavy armor = naked ), who costs a lot more than he ought to.

Less simple than that solution, here's my growing list of changes I'd like for OK:

0) Army Wide Rules: "Massive Damage" - all wounds caused in combat by non-gnoblars count for double CR; "Bull Charge" - as now, but impacts don't require min movement.
1) Slaughtermasters don't require a tyrant, can be general. I'm fine with butchers not being general though.
2) Big Names as chaos gifts, don't come out of magic item allowance.
3) Hunter points drop? Something to make him better. Rumors of having more sabres, other monster friends (cave bear), and being able to drag large targets X" towards him are all possibilities.
4) Ironguts have option to take ironfists, ahw; possible WS4.
5) Bulls price drop 5 points.
6) Yhet price drop, perhaps -1 to hit with shooting ala nurgle. 2hw would be nice too.
7) Scrappy: no change if not a small points drop (150 even?), 8th edition no partials for templates will make any large template brutal to the max
8) Maneaters points drop OR T5
9) New Rare: Rok, W6 flying terror causing monster that can either drop some serious rocks, or a single US9- in ogres directly into combat
10) More magic banners that matter (hatred ftw)
11) Enchanted Item: "Lava Rock" - all attaks from the bearer count as flaming (5-10 points)
12) Gut Magic: possibly change all RiP buff spells to the new faux-RiP that lasts 1 full turn than drop (ala word of pain, bless with filth, etc)

Some of that is off the top of my head, others have been stewing longer ...

- Salvage

Warriors of Chaos:
*Chaos Giant needs armor (like the last book)
*Add a Marauder character (along the lines of Wulfrik). If in a unit of Marauders/Horsemen he passes on Hatred.
*Make high-end Spawn Marks 5-10pts cheaper and move Spawns to Special. Maybe have an option to add a Sorceror or somebody else as a "handler".
*Juggnernaut Cavalry - seriously why not. You have Bloodcrushers, Blood Knights, and Rhinox riders. Same profile as Chaos knights and Juggernauts, but make it a 2-3 wound Cav model. 70-90pts per model. Command options, Mark of Khorne necessary, etc...
*Some sort of shooting option other than Hellcannon or Marauder horsemen. Maybe skirmishing, scouting Marauders. I'm thinking that you could include additional special and rare options that could open up the possibility of a Marauder army.
*Replace the crew of the Hellcannon with Chaos Warriors. Just seems more appropriate.

Empire:
*Allow Outriders to move and Shoot. Heavy Armor option.
*Make Griffon banner 50pts.
*If a General of the Empire is the General allow Greatswords to become core. Reduce Greatswords by 1-2pts.
*Add another Wizard Special Character. Belthasar Gelt is ok, but add a Max Schreiber type.
*Add Gotrek and Felix as Special Characters.
*Make Engineers an upgrade option for Warmachines (like Dwarfs). Seriously how many people pay for Engineers?
*Add another foot slogger type hth unit for the Empire (like the Teutagen Guard from SoC).

Ogres:
*Add Rhinox Riders, but tame them down
*Add usefull banners
*Make hunter a rare option (with no magic weapon options), but add in an automatic Greyback pelt-type item.
*Ironguts need to be WS4 and each unit should have access to a magic banner
*Maybe another type of Gnoblar unit
*Make Leadbelchers hits automatic (instead of # of shots).

I think that's it for now.

Just a couple things I can think of for my Warriors army.

Make Chaos Ogres WS4.

Make Forsaken be able to skirmish but limit their unit size to 5-8.

Allow the Deamon Prince's melee attacks to count as magical.

bwats wrote:

Allow the Deamon Prince's melee attacks to count as magical.

Now that you mention that it makes perfect sense. Should all "magical" creatures (i.e. daemons, dryads, etc...) be considered to have magical attacks?

barlio wrote:

bwats wrote:

Allow the Deamon Prince's melee attacks to count as magical.

Now that you mention that it makes perfect sense. Should all "magical" creatures (i.e. daemons, dryads, etc...) be considered to have magical attacks?

Yeah, good change. Fits perfectly with the background.

Cheaper Big'uns.

MUCH cheaper big'uns. Kthxpls.

A rare unit choice for Clan Eshin, just so you can do an Eshin themed army

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Cheaper Big'uns.

MUCH cheaper big'uns. Kthxpls.

The big'uns cost isn't that bad IMO, i would like them to be cheaper but im not too bothered. What i don' t like is that when you have a unit of big uns, a champion upgrade becomes useless for its cost, as it only has a fraction of the stat increases it would have noramally. I think i a big un champion is in order here. Or say that all ork champions get +1S, +1A etc.

1) Make the Demonslayer worth taking. He's a completely ignored Lord choice right now, as you either have to give up the anvil or a hard as nails Ld 10 to take him, and its just not worth it. Perhaps giving him some upgrades unique to slayer characters akin to the Storm of Chaos list, and similar to how they run Gifts of Khaine. Killing blow on large targets, magic resistance, and that sort of thing.

2) Address issues with items that can't affect ItP units. Right now choices like Flame Cannons, MR of Dismay and MR of Challenge are hurt pretty badly in all-comers list because of the massive amount of ItP out there. Siren Song affects ItP units, so let these runes do so as well.

3) A wider variety of special characters (this one *will* probably happen if trends continue).

4) Give rangers their forester rule back. Scouting into terrain that will take you 3 turns to walk out of is just kind of silly. Either that, or give them some bonus to make them worth taking- trap setting or deployment bonus or some such.

5) Make hammerers 0-1 again. Why are there *so many* units of elite bodyguards running around again? Makes no sense to me.

6) Address issues with runes that never see the light of day. Example MR of Disguise- a cool idea, but it either needs lingering effects (like penalties to hit), or it needs some kind of surprise deployment (like place it when scouts go down, but restricted to your own deployment zone).

The last is fairly unrealistic. As with any book, it will be almost impossible to balance all the magic items/runes to make them equally likely to be chosen.

RZ

Red_Zeke wrote:1) Make the Demonslayer worth taking. He's a completely ignored Lord choice right now, as you either have to give up the anvil or a hard as nails Ld 10 to take him, and its just not worth it. Perhaps giving him some upgrades unique to slayer characters akin to the Storm of Chaos list, and similar to how they run Gifts of Khaine. Killing blow on large targets, magic resistance, and that sort of thing.

This is my favorite of your changes, i too think that slayer characters are not worth taking, even the dragon slayers. I'd like to think theyre good and take them but i just can't. I try to load them up with runes to make them better but they become too expensive and you could get those benefits on a thane for cheaper. Also they can only take weapon runes and have no armour. I think they should at least give them Killing Blow, all slayers that is, and maybe the characters have a rule called 'Death Avoider' (or similar) which explains that becasue they have avoided death by horrible and very tough monsters they have gained a sort of a blessing which gives them a 5+ ward save or something. Also what about re-rolls to hit against what they're meant to slay e.g. troll slayers re-roll to hit against trolls?

Skaven
1. Have GW staff re-read the book, and flogged a number of times they say or think "well that rule needs to be FAQ'D"
2. Make Abominations 0-1
3. Raise the points for the Plague Furnace by 25 pts, and make it 0-1
4. Clearly indicate a weapon teams base size, make them clearly US 2.
5. Reduce the cost of Rat Swarms, no one takes them, there is no point right now when slaves/giant rats are better for less points.
6. Better side effect's for the doom rocket. Its so freaking good! Make it small blast template and str 4. It would still be good.
7. Increase the number of available pack masters to a rat ogre/rat unit
8. Make warpstone token's 1 use only
9. Bring back the storm demon priced at 50 pts in the arcane magic items
10. Increase the cost of a plague priest 10 pts, a hero for his pt cost that's good at everything, and a magic user with that high of toughness is pretty sweet.
11. Make some way to specialize the warlord to represent the clan's and change the armor roster (core, special) without having to take a named character.
12. Wolf Rat's cavalry. m9 ws 3 bs 0 str 3 t3 i4 a2 ld 4, 8 pts a pop.