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I guess I'd allow it in a casual game, but physical dice work just fine. If it ain't brke, don't fix it.

/Wanders off to google RNG algorithms...

I wouldn't mind it, as long as it is one of those dice rollers that you can shake your iPhone to make it roll for you (and a good one - I've seen some bad ones).

I'd certainly rather use a dice roller over, say, a laser pointer.

If dice rolling programs were widely used someone would write a fixed one for cheats.

Pika_power wrote:The downside is the potential to alter the code to have a disposition towards a higher number, which is enough to make any opponent wary, and I don't think the iphone owner would let you give the dice the floating test!

While "loading" the virtual dice with biased results is possible, in most cases, requiring that opponent have the right to use the tool will stop most potential cheating.

If it consistently rolls high, then that's something which can be taken advantage of by armies with a lot of shots / attacks, as they will have more "good" rolls than their opponents.

But what's more interesting is if you can get the tool into a "stealth" bias mode, such that you can secretly have it generate a string of numbers that appear to be random, but have some positive bias, against a default string with a negative bias. This allows for a (provably) net neutral result, but a strong bias in favor of the player who knows the "stealth" mode.

And yes, I'm pretty sure I can make a stealth bias die rolling program...


As a counter to this, I've suggested that players be allowed to "take 6" for multiples of 6 rolls as a fixed set of results [1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6], and only be required to roll the remainder. This speeds up large rolls tremendously, as your example of 240 shots would "take 6" for 40 of each result. While extremely fair, this takes a lot of luck out of the game, and making certain results automatic.

as someone who has written dice apps for various reasons here is my take and has a B.S. computer science.

1) computers are about the same randomness as real dice
2) making a program that scews the dice say by 6% (13.6% chance for a 1 and a 2 instead of 16.6) which statisticly is enough to make a big difference in warhammer is exceptionally easy. but exceptionally hard to detect by a person standing at the table without a knowlege of statitics and a calulator.
3) it only takes one person to know how to do it, and the iphone app store to spread it.


real dice as a casino surveillance operator i was trained on how to spot fakes and loads consequently how to make fakes and loads.
1) making a load that looks and acts like a true die is hard. assuming that the person looking has any idea at all what they are looking at.
2) loaded dice can be easily detected with your fingers if they are larger by spinning, or a glass of water if they are small. ( large dice spun between the fingers will gallop, small dice in water will fall to the same number almost every time, if they are not loaded will flip and spin more while falling)
3) as each individual dice has to be loaded or modified it can take considerable time to load a set of 36 dice for play.

Llamahead wrote:Why am I really scared that GW will read this and make a Dicer Automatic 40K for one gazillion dollars...........

And like all gaming products, you wouldn't HAVE to buy it...


But On Topic:

I would not allow it. It allows for too much possibility of cheating. Is your opponent going to show you the results every time as well? Who's to say he doesn't add in a couple extra dice just to skew the numbers in his favor a little more.

The only way I would consider it is if the device announced the results as well as showing them. And that it stated the goal in addition to number of dice being rolled. I want to here it say:

"12 dice being rolled"
"5 or 6 needed for success"
"Rolling"
"3 Successes"

Or sometihng like that.

Not a chance I'd allow it... ever.

These 'random dice generator' applications can never replace the true randomness of rolling dice. These applications only give a false impression of randomness. They are built and structured on mathematical algorithms that can never truly be random. The 'randomness' (as it's unfortunately referred to) is a calculated sequence of numbers within a pattern. Use it enough and the numbers will begin to repeat.

No I wouldn't I've seen it used and it produced an odd number of Crits when playing Infinity lol. It doesn't take much to roll 2 dice if your really that lazy sure why not.

I would actually prefer apps over real dice rolling as long as I'm allowed to use it too. So if it's rigged then I get the benefits too

lixulana wrote:2) loaded dice can be easily detected with your fingers if they are larger by spinning, or a glass of water if they are small.
3) as each individual dice has to be loaded or modified it can take considerable time to load a set of 36 dice for play.

Don't load all 36 - load 6. This gives a clear statistical advantage for slightly "lucky" results, but isn't so large that the opponent would notice a whole field of 6s.

Just a side note for everyone saying that dice are any more or less random than a good RNG algorithm... Dice, by definintion, do not generate quantum randomness, as the result of their interactions with the laws of physics....

Case in point: Practiced Rolling.

If dice were truly random, then this would not be a valid practice. Theoretically, you can calculate and predict the outcome of every dice roll with a certain load of data, including die position, height, etc.

As far as using an app goes, though, I'd be leery about it, but in casual play, I really wouldn't care... I'm a social gamer, usually, so the outcome rarely matters to me. That being said, if it were a tourney, I'd have to say "no", and they could borrow my dice....

As someone that has been having problems with getting my hands to work right recently, along with occasional bouts of cognitive 'duh' moments where simple things like counting up successes might get scrambled- using an app wouldnt just make the dice rolling easier for me, and less embarassing if Im having a shaky day- but it would also help me enjoy the game more instead of obsessing about not screwing up on the number of hits and wounds.

Seriously, not everyone is out to cheat. And its far easier to cheat real dice- people have done it for centuries. But if theres something that can make the game easier and more enjoyable- are you really going to quibble that an app is like .0432% less accurate than rolling real dice?

And another point- Ive never had anyone fumble roll an iphone or laptop into my ranks of minis and break anything. Cant say the same for regular dice.

Mistress of minis wrote:
And another point- Ive never had anyone fumble roll an iphone or laptop into my ranks of minis and break anything. Cant say the same for regular dice.

I saw an iPhone fall onto 2 of the new Space Hulk Terminators with amazing paintjobs. Neither side won, but the phone didn't need days of repair.

Ironically, the guy was taking a picture of how awesome they were.

No, not because I dont trust the guy but dice is part of the game.

Im sure there would be a way to fiddle with the coding to get the results you wanted at the time. SO No.

but it is so cool to pick up 60-100 die, it just feels so bad ass.

And no its not ok, because what if the program always uses the correct statistical calculation with no variation, then you would never do better than expected or worse than expected.

privateer4hire wrote:Although it would be easier for someone to have a doctored application for their electro-gizmo of choice, they could also just have a set of fixed dice.
If you don't 'trust' the person you're playing to use honest rulers, dice, codex (they could doctor the text if they're that bent on cheating), etc., you probably really don't want to play them in the first place.

Don't play against jackasses is a good rule of thumb.

QFT

Random Number generators are very random in this day and age. Using something like the Mersenne twister as the algorithm, you could simulate die rolls billions of times before any semblance of pattern would emerge. RNGs are 'good enough' that you will not be able to tell the difference. And any real die rolling program won't alter outlier data or force probabilities.

For example from the Mersenne twister (10000 rolls)
1: 1641
2: 1701
3: 1630
4: 1735
5: 1659
6: 1634
Which is very evenly distributed.

Rolling actual dice is far from random itself, and subject to the rules of physics as you release the die. In fact most 12mm wargaming dice favor the higher numbers on the die because they aren't balanced (the sides with 4, 5, and 6 are lighter than the other 3). Roll them enough times and you will start to see more 6's than 1's.

Cheating with a RNG or weighted dice shouldn't make a difference, if you can't trust your opponent, then you can't trust them, and shouldn't play them, they will find ways to cheat with their iphone or weighted dice regardless.

The only 'real' reasons not to use dice is for the 'feel' of the tabletop game - Which I respect. I take my netbook and my TouchPro to all my 40K games, but I use balanced casino dice for all rolls, even though I have die rollers available to me on both my electronics. I prefer seeing dice bounce on the table and finally settle on the result.

Its funny, people play video games all day that use similar algorithms, but never stop to complain about the randomness because its built into the games engine.

You know, in the world of profiling(like for legal matters) the people that often object to something the loudest- think everyone has done it because they've done it- or would do it themselves in the right situation.

Take insecure egos, and awkward social skills(generalization) mix in competition, and our socities poor acceptance of not winning- and people start doing stupid things. Sort of a Jekyl and Hyde thing.

Thats gonna happen regardless of how the random factors are generated.

Yup. Take dice for instance: If someone brings loaded dice to the game, why does it matter? Are you so anal-retentive asperger-spectrum that you only use your own dice? There's no point in using two sets of dice.

If the dice roller is statistically accurate, no. I think dice wackiness is a big part of wargaming.

Nope, Proper Dice only for me.

Wow, you guys take your toy soldiers very seriously.

I'd probably let them use it. It all depends on how they use it really, but if we can't even agree on a semi-random number generator at the start of the game, I don't think we're going to enjoy ourselves, are we.

I see this kind of 'anti-cheating' paranoia stuff tossed around so frequently online that it really makes me wonder if my mentality of gaming is completely removed from most gamers.

While I personally really enjoy rolling dice in my games, if my opponent wanted to use a dice rolling app and was willing to allow me to use it on my rolls as well (which is only fair, even though I'd likely never actually take him up on it and use it during the game), then why the heck should I, or anyone else try to deny them from using a tool that would help them enjoy their hobby more?


IMHO, the idea of worrying about whether or not someone may be cheating you, and then putting actions in place to combat this fear, is BY FAR, a much worse quality in gaming than actual cheaters cheating.

I mean, if someone really wants to cheat, then not letting them use a dice-rolling app isn't going to stop them. They're going to alter their dice, learn how to roll funny, cheat their range measurements, fudge their models when you're not looking, etc, etc, etc.

There a thousand ways to cheat in this hobby, but at the end of the day if someone beats you by cheating, so what? Even in the hardest hardcore tournaments, the prizes are almost always just MORE product for the game. So at the end of the day really what have you lost if you've lost a game to purported 'cheater'? Not much.

So IMHO, if a cheater wants to beat me with cheating, then by all means let him go ahead and do it. Congratulations, he's won a game of 40K and I've lost a game of 40K...I still go home and enjoy my life.

In fact, I'll even play that cheater over and over again, losing every time, but I'll continue to struggle like the epic generals in stories vastly outnumbered and outgunned, but knowing that when I do pull off a win, the glory will be all the greater!


Now, I'm not saying I want to play against cheaters, rather far from it. I love to play balanced, tight games and I always want to win. But I'll be damned if I let the idea that someone may be cheating creep into my head and start to ruin my hobby experience...I don't care how high the stakes of the game are.

The moment I start to think in the middle of a game 'hey, I wonder if this guy is cheating me with loaded dice' is the day I personally feel I need to put away my miniatures and get another hobby because I've lost sight of what I'm actually supposed to be doing with this hobby, which is having fun playing a game.


Who knows, maybe I've been cheated in the past and maybe I'll end up being cheated in the future but I will never, ever even consider for one moment that my opponent might be cheating me and let it ruin my game. If that's the level they need to sink to in order to win a game of Toy Soldiers, then god-bless them.

But for me, I'm just going to keep playing my game and enjoying myself and doing the best I can within the things I can actually control in order to win my game.


So yeah, as far as I'm concerned, bring on those dice rolling apps, or anything else you want to use that makes your hobby more enjoyable! I'll keep rolling my dice, but whatever floats your boat is fine with me.

Nope, nope, and nope again.

Nurglitch wrote:

Lord of battles wrote:just use a calculator: mines a sharp EL-531W you just press 2ndF then 7, it gives you options one of which is random dice and you just keep pressing enter, with my buddys we just use for rolling for hits wounds ect... but we use real dice for heroes and special wargear and such

Mine's a Sharp EL-738. It really speeds up play.

So, how does it speed things up for an IG player that needs to roll shooting for a merged platoon using First Rank Second Rank within rapid fire range? You know, when you get 90 or so shots just with lasguns..............

don_mondo wrote:Nope, nope, and nope again.

Nurglitch wrote:

Lord of battles wrote:just use a calculator: mines a sharp EL-531W you just press 2ndF then 7, it gives you options one of which is random dice and you just keep pressing enter, with my buddys we just use for rolling for hits wounds ect... but we use real dice for heroes and special wargear and such

Mine's a Sharp EL-738. It really speeds up play.

So, how does it speed things up for an IG player that needs to roll shooting for a merged platoon using First Rank Second Rank within rapid fire range? You know, when you get 90 or so shots just with lasguns..............

That's when you use a decent app that allows you to select the number of dice rolled and gives you how many times each number showed up.

the dice gods HIGHLY disapprove of dice rolling apps. I wouldn't let my opponent use it I personally think Ipods, pads whatever are dumb and I dont want to be held responsible if their gadget breaks during our game. Plus with what other posters have said theres gonna be someone out there that will "hack" it to make it roll dice in your favor. Besides you cant call yourself a wargamer without a big pouch of dice that you constantly have blessed by your groups Elder and or store owner (it helps if your store owner looks like Gandalf).

TakeABow wrote:

Rolling actual dice is far from random itself, and subject to the rules of physics as you release the die. In fact most 12mm wargaming dice favor the higher numbers on the die because they aren't balanced (the sides with 4, 5, and 6 are lighter than the other 3). Roll them enough times and you will start to see more 6's than 1's.

I used to think that too, but it has actually been shown to be untrue, with the opposite actually happening. The reason being that the 1's side has higher rotational velocity when at the bottom than at the top, which combined with its increased weight relative to the 6 tends to pull it back towards the top. This is largely why casino dice have sharp edges to make the energy cost of rolling over again much higher, and do not drill out the pips to keep each side much closer in weight.

There was an article on Dakka about this a little bit ago, and quite a few others online. Granted, how much has been shown with great statistics is debatable, and I am usually quite willing to discount statistical studies anyway. As a good rule of thumb though, if Casinos require their dice a particular way, I would say the millions of dollars they have at stake are making a convincing argument.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

lixulana wrote:2) loaded dice can be easily detected with your fingers if they are larger by spinning, or a glass of water if they are small.
3) as each individual dice has to be loaded or modified it can take considerable time to load a set of 36 dice for play.

Don't load all 36 - load 6. This gives a clear statistical advantage for slightly "lucky" results, but isn't so large that the opponent would notice a whole field of 6s.

in the course of what you use in warhammer gaffing the dice would be more effective and less detectable than a load.

but it still represents the simple fact of changing the probabilities from 16.6 to maybe 13-14% for a 1/2/3.

but buying a cube of 36 dice and doing a statistal analysis of the dice from the cube you might be able to find 3-6 that are gaffed from the factory to roll higher or lower due to a manufacters defect.


casinos use cubes with square corners because its easier to detect a square than a rounded edge for a human being specifically the box man.
second it makes micing the dice with a micrometer an exact science as all three directions and every place on all three sides is exactly the same measurement.
the dice are clear to make drilling easier to detect.
the pips are a special plastic that has exactly the same density as the rest of the cube which is a different kind of plastic
each set of dice is numbered so the dice set of 5 can not be seperated
the list of what casinos do goes on and on.

besically it breaks down to casinos go to all this trouble so they dont get cheated because they are already going to win so they dont care about making it more in their favor than it already is.

I'm against the app, unless there is a physical reason for it. Frankly rolling buckets of dice are an integral part of the culture and ambiance of the game.