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Last year I played in a tournament that had no comp. score, but did have a sportsmanship score. I had a unit of diversified nobz. In the first game I had to explain to my opponent that diversified nobz were indeed allowed to distribute wounds. He didn't believe me and continued to insist that I removed whole models all the time. I refused and called over a judge who explained the legality of nob wound allocation. I won the game and my opponent gave me the worst possible score for sportsmanship. Soft scores should never influence the outcome of a tournament by more than 10%. By the way, many tournaments have a yellow card/red card system. If someone is a complete ass they can be thrown out of the tournament by a judge and there's no need for some opaque soft scoring system.

Grats on best General Brad.

Thanks Bunker! Jesus I didn't realize how badly I got hammered on Painting. Technically my army isn't even "tournament" quality according to those judges Still, 8th overall isn't bad. I just can't believe my army rated an 11 total out of 30 for painting.....I'm the only guy in the top 10 with a less than 20 paint score. Oh well, next up is an event where the painting scores aren't so.....subjective.....

Just noticed a guy I played that had unfinished models had a higher paint score than me Woot for subjective paint scores! Hehe

I dream of a day where Best General, Best Painted and Best Sportsman are three separate prizes at every tournament...

On the soft score stopping competitive players from winning is not so. I played Steve the one who won best over all and he was very competitive to the point thats all he was there for. sure he had a great looking army and I really enjoyed our game even though I lost so bad (I'm competitive and love the challenge of a good player) but he even told me during our match up he was only there to try to get into the Vegas GT. If you look at his comp. scores from last year he was in the bottom four. I know for one I gave every one full marks on comp. and sportsmanship as did a lot of the people I knew there (one friend was asked to stop doing so as "he was not doing it right"). there were alot more competitive gamers there than the TO's expected because of the Vegas spots and copm/sportsmanship is really subjective. It took the judges over an hour to add up scores from the last round. I actuall think there were a lot of ties and scores needed to be "adjusted" by the TO's acordingly to their "criteria" to break said ties.

I don't know if there were that many ties. Remember they had to go thru all the turned in sheets and add in all the bonus points for Favorite Army, Opponent, and Painted so it took a little while. These are where I'm a little confused to be honest since sometimes they seem to be worth 2 points and others 1 but it is what it is. Everyone showing up knew that soft scores were king at this event (Closer to 1/3 of the total after bonuses). I don't like that there is basically a 30 point "swing" vote at the end of the tournament. 2/3 of which are basically the same thing (how pretty your army is)

The main thing is we had a great time against some good gamers. I would appreciate a little more space to move but you can't have everything

Army comp worth 20% of a tournament? What a joke.

Hulksmash wrote:

The main thing is we had a great time against some good gamers. I would appreciate a little more space to move but you can't have everything

Or tables higher then 3ft off the ground! my back is still killing me

Would be cool to see army breakdowns to see how the new SW, IG, and Tyranids did.

I don't know the overall breakdown on armies since the info I've got doesn't have the armies played but since I either played or know all the other players in the top ten I figured I'd put up at least that much. Space Wolves, Eldar, and Space Marines had great showings. I think I heard that there were 4 Eldar players there and all of them brought Eldrad but 2/4 in both main top 10 slots isn't a bad total. A Dark Angel player making top 10 in BP's is impressive as well. Part of that could have been that the first 3 games were based on the organizers comp scores so he didn't face anyone with a "harder" list till game 4.

For Overall

1. Space Marines
2. Eldar
3. Chaos
4. Space Marines
5. Dark Angels
6. Space Wolves
7. Eldar
8. Space Wolves
9. ??
10. Space Wolves

Battle Points:

1. Eldar
2. Space Wolves
3. Chaos
4. Space Marine
5. Imperial Guard (?)
6. Space Wolves
7. Eldar
8. Dark Angel
8. Space Marine
10. Space Wolves

Hulksmash wrote:A Dark Angel player making top 10 in BP's is impressive as well. Part of that could have been that the first 3 games were based on the organizers comp scores so he didn't face anyone with a "harder" list till game 4.

Or he's just awesome! Would be interested to see his list as DA can actually do mech pretty effectively.

Thanks for the breakdown.

What the hell...were there no ork players?

olympia wrote:What the hell...were there no ork players?

Orks are really struggling right now. I am seeing my WAAAGH! having a tough time with Nids and Space Wolves right now, and that is just in friendly games! I don't know what else many of you think, but since PKs are one of the only reliable ways to pop mech lists that puts us at a huge disadvantage. I definitely don't see them as a power army any more, especially since our main strength is CC, and with SW counter charge, and nids stupid initiative I usually lose way to many boyz on the charge to make it worthwhile...

I wished I would have seen Nids and Orks! My army was designed to murder them and all I played were mech lists till my last game.

The soft scores sucked, no doubt about it, but the tournament was really fun, which is all that I care about.

Here are the tables.



Here are the knee-high tables. I am 6'5" and my back is still killing me.

I play orks and didnt have that hard of time with the SW. got a major victory and a tie against them (witch was my favorite match against Huksmash and that came down to the last turn). only reason I lost to tau is I killed 5 of his troops in tanks, he had 1 left on an objective and like 12 drones to contest the 3 objectives I sat on. only other loss was to the bike army that won best overall and I learned alot from that game and doubt it would play out the same way again.

With regards to the soft score impact and the "Army" Theme or Comp scoring, I realized after the 3rd Game that it was arbitrary and most people, including myself, didn't really know what they were scoring.

I know the sheet based in sort of on competitiveness, but I had people asking me, "What is your theme?" Also, many people were going over the top with their armies back story, I feel to increase their theme scores. I didn't play any top lists during this tournament, which was fine since I didn't bring a competitive list, and as a result I got a 30 for Army, which I think means I got close to top marks for theme and a couple bonus points for being one persons "favorite theme for opponent." However, the question still existed, were we scoring "theme" or "comp?"

If I read the fluff on Eldar, well then Blackmoor and Tobey's lists are in theme.. top marks.. which I would give anyways.

Personally, after this experience, I never want to play a non-tier 1 list at a GT again. I have found that bad players with bad lists are horrible to play (as in they don't know the rules, or are playing 4th edition rules, or are SLOW...). Going forward, I will take a hit on comp any day, as long as I am able to play against the truly competitive players, that are winning because they are good, are great at list construction, and know the rules

So no more gimp lists for me...

Heh. I applaud the sentiment. I should really start playing that way myself. I have a terribly short attention span with army builds and a weakness for models I like the look or backstory for though
I'm not a fan of any sort of subjective scoring like that being a big part of a tournament's marking. I say, if a guy is a jerk, don't go for a pint with him afterwards.

@Absoluteblue

I think that is where most of us at the top tables were at. We all knew coming in that we would probably take a hit on our comp. But to be honest I brought probably one of the nastiest builds there and scored a 27 out of 30. So I lost out on 3 points out of 5 games. I still placed in the top 10 and if I could paint I'd have taken the damned tournament (maybe I'll hire Toby ).

And yeah, I didn't play a single person who didn't know the rules or who played slowly. I only had one game that only went 4 turns and that's just the breaks of fighting out a multiple assault with wound allocation nobz. Plus it was the first game of the tourney and I think we took a little to long to get started.

I also saw that everyone at the top tables was pretty relaxed and while focused they were still having a good time. I don't think I'll ever take a "soft" list to a tourney again.

Dave broke down the actual percentages, battle points only accounted for 37.5% of the actual points! That is retardo.

The guys who were judging the army lists don't play anything but Apoc really, and they definitely don't play competitive 40K so they had a hard time picking out power builds, they based everything on adhering to Army fluff, which is silly.

I also took a hard list and didn't give a hoot about soft scores as they are not something I can control at all. I was gunning for best general.

The SoCal slaughter has a much better scoring system in my mind, and I really look forward to that event.

Don't get me wrong though, the BSB was a ton of fun and I will for sure go back next year.

Next time I need to practice with my list for more than one day as thinking over my games I am realizing that I made a some errors with it due to inexperience.

Quick arrogance check on my part.... just because I don't bring a gimp list doesn't mean I still won't be at the bottom , but I definitely won't handicap myself for the sake of comp.

I was sort of laughing at how the SW Maximum Overdrive list was "compy" I think its awesome, and would agree, but just another example of how subjective it really is.

::sigh::

The only thing my list had in common with the Maximum Overdrive was the actual use of razorbacks. I had full long fang squads. My razorbacks were armed completely differently. I had 2 Lone Wolves. 2 Almost full squads of GH's in Rhinos w/WG, only 3 smaller squads of GH's of which 2 had melta's and PW's, and a podding WG unit. Sorry, all weekend all people saw were 6 razorbacks and all I heard was "ooohhh, that's that stelek list" since they didn't look any deeper.

::end sigh::

But the fact that it was considered middle of the road was ridiculous. I brought it knowing I'd tuned a pretty nasty list and that I'd be facing other nasty lists in round 1 and 2 but I really didn't. They weren't bad and Grimgob dang near took a win off me but I still shouldn't have been in the middle of the pack on comp to start.

I'm not a fan of subjective comp by people who don't really look at it from a competitive standpoint. I'm really looking forward to the Slaughter since the guys looking at the lists do play more competitively and the match-ups will be better set for the first 2 rounds. Plus the high battle point players will start hitting each other in game 3 instead of racking up points and not running into harder gamers till game 4.

I also had people ask me what the theme of my army is. I thought GW got rid of any themes in 4th edition.

The theme of my army is that I tried to build a competitive elder army without grav tanks or a seer council. If that is the way we are playing, do you want me to make up a long back story so I can justify my choices…why?

I built my army back in 3rd edition and I wanted to do a Saim-Hann army with Naydu Fireheart and the Wild Rider host with a lot of jetbikes and vipers. Since then the 4th edition of the rules came out, and killed that army, and after that, every tournament I play in my army changes a lot. I did take Eldrad though (I was going to leave him at home because of comp, but added him in because of the new ‘Nid dex), and I had one person say that Eldrad should only be in an Ulthwe army. So what they were saying is that if my models were painted black I would have been fine, but since they were painted red, I took a comp hit.

Hulksmash had perhaps the hardest army there, but did not take much of a comp hit. Toby (A similar Eldar build to mine) and I took a big comp hit. I would like to see what armies got what comp score because my theory is that competitive space marines get a good comp score, and the competitive xenos end up with a bad comp score.

The problem with my army is that it looks soft to someone that does not know any better, so my army comped very high when looked at by the judges, but then on the table top getting hit by 60 strength 6 shots a turn is not that much fun. So I think the problem I had was that the first 3 match-ups were against similarly comped armies, so I ended up playing against armies that were not as competitive as mine and my soft scores suffered because of that.

This happens a lot with my armies. Back in 3rd edition I played Thousand Sons when everyone said that they were a bad army, but when I would beat everyone with them, I always scored badly on comp.

@Hulksmash - Apologies for the reference to the Overdrive Just a habit of calling any Razorback spam list that name ::sigh:: is understood.

I look forward to Slaughter in Space though...

Hmmmm is playing a model who's character is "dead" a good theme? The only thing worse then judges comp scores is player comp scores!

Does anyone here know the overall army breakdown for this event?

http://www.scgwl.com/

Dont forget Slaughter in Space 2 is coming up this April 16-18 at Ontario Convention Center for your revenge!

Reecius wrote:I am looking forward to the SoCal slaughter

Ozymandias wrote:When's SoCal Slaughter? I may actually be able to make the trip down to LA.

Yes! Can't wait for it. All the cool guys will be there! And I'll go too

Oh and Ozy i just spent the weekend at the Sycamore Mineral Springs, and ate a dinner at Big Sky Cafe. I should have snuck away and tried to squeeze in a game with you haha.

Hulksmash wrote: But to be honest I brought probably one of the nastiest builds there and scored a 27 out of 30. So I lost out on 3 points out of 5 games. I still placed in the top 10 and if I could paint I'd have taken the damned tournament (maybe I'll hire Toby ).

First off. Comp is terrible. GW is the arbiter of comp. And if the list you wrote is legal, then according to GW its in 'theme'. Second, I like your list a lot Brad, and you have some tactical tech choices on the list that make it less frustrating for opponents who you will eventually table with your shooting power. Things like lone wolves and a pod of wolf guard are not 'soft' units, but they are a lot more interactive for your opponent then just a face melting gunline.

That being said, the proof of the cluelessness of players in a comp tourney is in this particular pudding. Your list is LEAN and MEAN. There is not one soft unit in there, and it is mostly just going to dismantle an army before they even get to use their models that they lovingly painted. on the other hand Allan and Toby have made eldar armies that, while good in the right hands, they do offer their opponents a chance to get a win from them. Allan may disagree with me, but IMO there is definitely a scarier eldar list in their codex, and the codex itself is showing its age. Regardless of whether or not they are the est eldar list that can be made, I just can't see how both Allan and Toby took a huge hit for their lists. I can't think of anything more thematic, and they don't have longer range than 36" for the most part. Definitely a friendly list for someone who just wants to have fun.

I'm shocked that Allan got hit on sports too. He talks smack, but its the kind of smack that is fun and totally smooth around the edges, there are never any barbs there. It just sounds like more misbegotten eldar hate.

To summarize. the only players qualified to judge composition are skilled tourney players, and skilled tourney players don't want comp interfering with their games.... I try to stay clear of comp tourneys for that very reason. Comp poisons results, period.

Thanks for all the info guys. See you at the slaughter...

Shep wrote:

Ozymandias wrote:When's SoCal Slaughter? I may actually be able to make the trip down to LA.

Yes! Can't wait for it. All the cool guys will be there! And I'll go too

Oh and Ozy i just spent the weekend at the Sycamore Mineral Springs, and ate a dinner at Big Sky Cafe. I should have snuck away and tried to squeeze in a game with you haha.

I'm guessing this was on Valentine's Day weekend? Dude, sign her up for a massage, then PM me and we can get a game in. Seriously, I've been reading your battle reports, you'd have trounced me and been back in under an hour.

Next time you're up this way, let me know, I'd love to see how my Razorback Mech DA fare against you.

Shep, you were in Avila? Crazy, the hot springs there are one of the best spots to take a lady, no question. I used to live like 2 miles from that place.

The BSB was a lot of fun, I don't want to scare anyone away from it. The main issue for guys like us (competitive players) was the fact that the guys running it are hobbyists first, gamers second and they wanted an event that would reflect that. Hell, they gave the best painted trophy ABOVE the best general award which shows where their priorities are.

There is a lot of discussion about how to improve the BSB for next year (although again, it was a REALLY fun event). They are going to make battle points count for more, get better missions and improve the comp system.

They want to form a committee to rank lists and I am trying to get myself (and Dave if I can convince him) onto that committee as I am honestly the only guy they game with that will recognize a power list when he sees it.

I think comp has no place what so ever in competitive play, if a list is legal, then it is fair. I do, however, like the way the SoCal Slaughter runs things, they rank your list based on power level and then pair your first games based on that and form there it plays no further part.

The Slaughter will be awesome, that is my old game club from LA and they know how to run an event. Everyone that went last year said it was awesome, so I am looking forward to it. I missed it last year because I was in Colombia or Brazil at that point, but it feels good to be back in the tournament scene and see a lot of my old buddies.

Looking forward to meeting you Shep, I met your buddy KevinNash and he was a really cool cat.

And watch out for Ozzy, he cheats like crazy! hahaha