Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

"Movie Marines" are somewhat... exaggerated. The true stats of a Marine would/should probably be somewhere between the 40k version and their move counter-parts.

Of course, you can only really get so far when using such a limited base of stats as 40k. There's a lot to Marines, and indeed everything else, that's glossed over or crudely bundled into those few little numbers.

Tyranids would be an interesting one. Termagants, Hormagaunts, Rippers and the like would probably stay reasonably close to where they are now. Probably faster movement, an extra attack or so.

Genestealers on the other hand would need to be stronger, faster, far more skilled and generally utterly lethal. Tyranid Warriors similarly so, though more on durability than speed in their case.

I think Necrons, and the C'tan would have a huge jump in stats.

I mean, I think in one of their first introductions, a regular Gauss flayer, blasted a hole in BOTH sides of a land raider.

I could be wrong, but I remember reading something to that effect before.

I would think Necrons would have about the same stats as Space Marines. Not as well trained or as high an initiative, but stronger and tougher. You are probably thinking of heavy gauss weapons like the ones immortals and heavy destroyers have.

Utopias Astartes wrote:I would think Necrons would have about the same stats as Space Marines. Not as well trained or as high an initiative, but stronger and tougher. You are probably thinking of heavy gauss weapons like the ones immortals and heavy destroyers have.

Well, It was their Introduction, so I could see hyping up the entire race, by using the basic warrior, blowing up a land raider.

I'll have to dig that up sometime.

It was a Heavy Gauss Cannon that was documented going straight through a Land Raider. Now before we get all "well it's their heavy weapon" on that, the key thing to remember is that the beam penetrated the Land Raider *twice* (both sides), for no loss of strength or deviation of course. All of this from what is essentially a hand-held gun mounted on a one-man skimmer. Necron tech is badass.

Utopias Astartes wrote:From what I have gathered here and from what I have gathered from my significantly more knowledgable friends, this is what I think the fluff stats would be. I have included a few other stats for comparison.

Scout: Ws4 Bs4 S5 T5 W1 I5 A1 Ld8 Sv4+
Marine: Ws5 Bs5 S5 T5 W2 I5 A2 Ld8 Sv3+
Sergeant: Ws5 Bs5 S5 T5 W2 I5 A3 Ld9 Sv3+

Of course, Chaplains and Librarians would also be Ws6, Bs5, Ld10 and so on. Captains and Chapter Masters would be Ws7. These special characters would also have more attacks and wounds.

Plague Marine: Ws5 Bs5 S5 T6 W2 I5 A2 Ld8 Sv3+, Feel No Pain
Ogryn: Ws3 Bs3 S4 T4 W3 I2 A3 Ld6 Sv5+

Heavy Bolter Str6 Ap4 Range 36" Type Heavy 3
Boltgun Str5 Ap5 Range 24" Type Rapid Fire
Bolt Pistol Str5 Ap5 Range 12" Type Pistol

Ripper Gun Str4 Ap- Range 12" Type Assault 2

I particularly wanted to compare an Ogryn and a Space Marine. While an Ogryn is much bigger (and therefore has more wounds) than a Space Marine, a Space Marine is stronger, tougher, quicker, and better trained than an Ogryn. However, an Ogryn is particularly savage in close combat and therefore has more attacks. Also, the bolt weapon stats would only apply to Space Marine bolt weapons, not Imperial Guard ones. As far as game balance is concerned, the Marines would still have only one wound but would be a little more expensive. Ogryns could then cost about 25 to 30 points as opposed to 40.

Also, I would think that Necrons would be something like this with corresponding adjustments to other units in the Necron Army. However, I'm not as familiar with Necrons and would need more help on these guys.

Necron Warrior: Ws4 Bs4 S5 T5 W3 I2 A2 Ld10 Sv3+

Gauss Flayer Str5 Ap5 Rapid Fire, Gauss

What does anyone else think of these stats? Note that these would be the only changes. A Guardsmen would still be Ws3 Bs3 S3 T3. An Ork would still have the same stats. Of course, other Space Marine chapters such as the Space Wolves and Blood Angels would also recieve these corresponding modifications and points changes as well as Chaos Space Marines, but other than that, there would be no other alterations. I just want to get an idea of the fluff 40k universe. It just doesn't seem like an Adeptus Astartes bolter would be as powerful as an assault cannon or that a Space Marine is as strong as a dreadnought like the Movie Marines. As awesome as a Space Marine is, dreadnoughts are certainly more powerful and better armed, right?

Any more comments? I'm dying of anticipation.

Nothing?

Can anyone post a link to the Movie Marines rules please?

Thanks,

Valk

Do you know what the stats for bigger guns like lascannons or assault cannons would be since the bolters are so much stronger. And are these significantly better than those fielded by guardsmen?

A movie marine (true fluff) lascannon is S10 and goes through any models they hit like a straight line dropping one S for every model killed.

The armour saves of marines are also invulnerable.

Yeah-these are movie marines. For some reason everyone seems to think that the Movie Marines are how Movie Marines should actually be. They're not like that.

You base this on what exactly?
GW issued "movie marine" rules to represent true fluff and GW are not exactly sharing your opinion. Thats good enough for me.

Fluff-wise, without the support of the God-Emperor of Mankind the Chaos Space Marines are probably a shadow of their former selves... except for the horns and spiky bits. Ahh, spiky bits...



You obviously have never read any Chaos fluff then. Read Storm of Iron and Dark Apostle, that will properly put into perspective how badass Chaos Marines really are....

Yes and no!
The few old timers, the survivors of the HH (and they are few) would be more powerful then loyalist "normal" marines due to more experiance.
However the "normal" rank and file chaos marines are no way better then loyalist. On the contrary, there are pointers that they are not due to mutations and geneseed degradation in the eye/warp, due to not as thorough selection processes leaving much of the mental balance needed to make proper marines, left out of the picture (a psychotic or mentally defect person WILL make apoorer soldier then a mentaly sound and stable one).
Lest to mention the iron warriors in the books basically inserting people into deamon fuelled marine-making machines and turning out instant chaos marines. Hardly something that is equal to the 30 years of extreme training and selection a loyalist rank and file marine is at the very beginning.

As for equipment-wise, loyalist marines rely more on tech and the chaos marines more on gifts and warp powers and just as tech can fail so do warp gifts backfire.

Anyone read the new Soul Hunter book about the Night Lords?

It's fantastic. It feels like a grown up version of 40K.

Most of the Night Lords - and it's hinted that many of the other Legions feel the same - despise daemons and those corrupted by them. They fight because they truly believe that the Emperor betrayed them and was paving the way for his eventual ascention to godhood. Horus failed, the Emperor will probably never be tackled, but the fight must be fought. Evil can never be allowed to succeed...

The books ending is an epic fail of galaxy spanning proportions. The book untill the end was wonderful and very enjoyable but in the end the author goes 12yo and wrecks everything.

It does also shed light on chaos marines NOT being older and more experianced since on multiple accounts it is pointed out that time flows faster in the warp and for the chaos marines that have been fighting even in the emperors palace at the HH no more then 100 "real" years have passed and they both feel and act like "just" a hundred years ago they have been fighting in the HH.
Thus experiance wise the remaining HH veteran company of the chaos marines in the book are no more experianced then a squad of stern or vanguards or anything else in a normal SM first company for that matter.

So we have two schools of fluff colliding here.

If marines were made acording to the fluff game would be insanely un-balanced.

It wouldnt be unbalanced at all, it would however be unfair money-wise.
The SM player would have to buy 4 marines while the nid player would have to buy 200 nid models for a 2000p battle.

Yes, because they'd EVER throw 20,000,000 Guardsmen at ONE space marine? I highly doubt it. Maybe a squad of ten-twelve going at him. Oh, but in the fluff, either side could win that fight, so I see very fifty-fifty odds here.

Duh, its impossible with the small base a marine has
However, if you based your marine with a 100 meter wide base I´d probably use 20 000 000 guardsmen against him, all base-to-base.
LOL

Why would space marines have stronger lascannons? I understand stronger bolters. Also, what would the stats of an assault cannon be or the stats of a dreadnought? That is another comparison I am having a hard time with because as of now, a "fluff" space marine is just about as good as a dreadnought which I know is not right.

Its not stronger then other lascannons like in the IG army.
GW specifically stated that in the hands of a fluff space marine the lascannon would work that way when facing a standard non fluff IG (other race) army.
The same goes for fluff SM missile launchers, they are assault 2, big blast things (dont remember strength)

The same reason was given for the lascannons being weaker in the hands of armies like IG vs fluff SM, simply to signify the different quality of the troops, skills, power level etc.

So that you "know2 its wrong is one thing but I rather believe in what GW themselves have said and that contradicts your personal opinion of what is "wrong".



Remember, in the fluff a company of SM or a warband of CSM can subdue a whole rebellious planet. It is that power and skill level GW highlites in the fluffy SM rules.

Pyriel- wrote:You base this on what exactly?
GW issued "movie marine" rules to represent true fluff and GW are not exactly sharing your opinion. Thats good enough for me

That is very wrong. The Movie Marine rules themselves state that they are for representing Space Marines as though they were staring in a Hollywood action movie (the hint was also in the name 'Movie' Marines...), absolutely nowhere did it say that it was the 'true' representation of Astartes. There were even rules called 'the script writers hate us' and 'stunt-double'!

GW themselves have stated in numerical form how a Space Marine sizes up. They are worth 10 (or a dozen) Guardsmen. If you want to work out how powerful a SM is, keep buffing it's stats until it can take 10 Guardsmen on the TT. Although you'll need to find the 'true' stats of a Guardsman to do that (note - the current stats are not accurate, unless you think Guardsmen can punch as hard as their lasguns hit for!).

lol
Is that with or without the power armour?

Besides older fluff say 1-10, newer say 1-100 and even newer still say a company = takes over a defended world so which one is it?

Then taking canon fluff we are told that 100 marines can take over a whole world, that to me sounds like utter BS should each marines worth be 10 guardsmen.
If that is truly the case then it would mean the marines pick careful fight where each squad faces no more then a hundred opponents and even then "balance" would say they both annihilate each others and that would mean a campaign spanning decades.

The only thing defending PDF need to to is to band up all their manpower in one 100k sized mob and not even an entire chapter would be able to beat that since 1 SM = 10 guardsmen.

How come some 30-40k CSM could easily whack the millions and millions of defending guardsmen during the HH when they are so weak they are "only" worth 10 guardsmen each.
Any advancing or dropping CSM squad would be instantly annihilated since there are tens of thousands of guardsmen entrenched all around their drop zones.
There goes the 1-10 fluff out the window...

You really need to take fluff and power levels into consideration, GW is known to screw up fluff on occasion but a space marine, a handful picked from an entire worlds worth of warlike populace, trained in the most brutal and effective means possible for 15-40 years before even being allowed into the marine ranks (depending on what fluff to follow), enhanced both physically and mentally to near godlike levels (canon fluff) and then given the best defensive and offensive equipment the imperium has to offer is worth 10 guardsmen?
Allow me to laugh!

All the canon fluff telling marines are not even comparable to a guardsman is thus null and void simply because you found an old fluff like when Dorn says "give me a hundred space marines or failing that give me a thousand guardsmen?
LOL
No thankyou, I choose to believe in the side that follows the most fluff, logic and common sense.

It's not old fluff, it's from the 5ed core rulebook and the 5ed Space Marine codex. You've been reading too many bad BL books (and watching too much DBZ I'll wager!). You have to remember that a lot of the SM fluff relates the greatest exploits of the greatest Astartes to ever live, and is possibly exaggerated propaganda to top if off. It is not indicative of the average Space Marine's power.

Also, Space Marines cannot take over defended worlds on their lonesome. Astartes were intentionally hamstrung after the Horus Heresy specifically so they couldn't capture their own planets if they tried to rebel again. They lack the numbers the Legions used to have (and even then, the Legions were shown working alongside conventional soldiers to subjugate planets), and their Battle Barges are forbidden to carry lance batteries so they're not going to even get within striking range of a defended planet before they're floating about in space wondering what happened to their ship's armor save.

Space Marines are special forces. They drop upon the enemy leadership while the foe's army is paralyzed by an endless gunline of Guardsmen, they strike at the defended walls of besieged cities so that the Guardsmen can advance and slaughter the enemy within, and they perform specialised missions against targets that Guardsmen can't attack because of inhospitable environments or enclosed spaces where the Guardsmens' numbers would work against them.

In the case of Chaos Space Marines, you're getting your fluff really mixed up. Nearly half the entire Imperium - that means half the Imperial Army, Navy and Mechanicum - joined Horus. This is mentioned many, many times. The HH would have been very short if it had just been 9 Legions against the entire Imperium... In more recent battles, such as the 13th Black Crusade, the CSM were accompanied by an endless stream of heretics and mutants that, like the Guardsmen for the Imperium, did the majority of the actual fighting. They had their own army list, it was called the Lost and the Damned.

Going by Codex fluff the Guard's should have BS4, considering they define everyone as crack-shots all the time, especially light infantry regiments like Catachans and Tallern. On the same note you would assume Tau would also be BS4, with their entire military doctrines focused, almost exclusively, on ranged combat.

Aren't Tau supposed to be short-sighted by our standards? The best training in the galaxy isn't to help if you can't see your target!

[edit] BS3 is pretty good anyway. It doesn't represent an average human's capacity to aim, it's the BS of well-trained Guardsmen and the poorly-trained yet infamously powerful senses of Eldar (so powerful they create the god of sensation!). Poorly trained humans are BS2, such as with Conscripts. Space Marines are BS4 because they train for longer, have targeting displays in their helmet's visors, and have an occulobe implant that improves their vision. BS4 is exceptional.

Utopias Astartes wrote:From what I have gathered here and from what I have gathered from my significantly more knowledgable friends, this is what I think the fluff stats would be. I have included a few other stats for comparison.

Scout: Ws4 Bs4 S5 T5 W1 I5 A1 Ld8 Sv4+
Marine: Ws5 Bs5 S5 T5 W2 I5 A2 Ld8 Sv3+
Sergeant: Ws5 Bs5 S5 T5 W2 I5 A3 Ld9 Sv3+

Of course, Chaplains and Librarians would also be Ws6, Bs5, Ld10 and so on. Captains and Chapter Masters would be Ws7. These special characters would also have more attacks and wounds.

Plague Marine: Ws5 Bs5 S5 T6 W2 I5 A2 Ld8 Sv3+, Feel No Pain
Ogryn: Ws3 Bs3 S4 T4 W3 I2 A3 Ld6 Sv5+

Heavy Bolter Str6 Ap4 Range 36" Type Heavy 3
Boltgun Str5 Ap5 Range 24" Type Rapid Fire
Bolt Pistol Str5 Ap5 Range 12" Type Pistol

Ripper Gun Str4 Ap- Range 12" Type Assault 2

I particularly wanted to compare an Ogryn and a Space Marine. While an Ogryn is much bigger (and therefore has more wounds) than a Space Marine, a Space Marine is stronger, tougher, quicker, and better trained than an Ogryn. However, an Ogryn is particularly savage in close combat and therefore has more attacks. Also, the bolt weapon stats would only apply to Space Marine bolt weapons, not Imperial Guard ones. As far as game balance is concerned, the Marines would still have only one wound but would be a little more expensive. Ogryns could then cost about 25 to 30 points as opposed to 40. I'm not familiar enough with Tau to know if they should be Bs3 or Bs4 but I do know that they wreak havoc with shooting.

How do you REMOTELY think a space marine is stronger or tougher than an Ogryn?!? Look at the models, then tell me a Ogryn is weaker. Yeah, smurfs are strong, but physics would like to disagree with the marine > ogryn arguement.

Movie marine stats look good.

Also, can I get a link to movie marine stats?

Rube wrote:Aren't Tau supposed to be short-sighted by our standards? The best training in the galaxy isn't to help if you can't see your target!

[edit] BS3 is pretty good anyway. It doesn't represent an average human's capacity to aim, it's the BS of well-trained Guardsmen and the poorly-trained yet infamously powerful senses of Eldar (so powerful they create the god of sensation!). Poorly trained humans are BS2, such as with Conscripts. Space Marines are BS4 because they train for longer, have targeting displays in their helmet's visors, and have an occulobe implant that improves their vision. BS4 is exceptional.

Yea, Tau take longer to focus on objects in the distance, but i assume their helmets provide visual augmentation (they cant be purely aesthetic, right?).

It's not old fluff, it's from the 5ed core rulebook and the 5ed Space Marine codex. You've been reading too many bad BL books (and watching too much DBZ I'll wager!).

Hardly, if IAs doesnt count as direct SM canon fluff then I dont know what.

You have to remember that a lot of the SM fluff relates the greatest exploits of the greatest Astartes to ever live, and is possibly exaggerated propaganda

"possibly"? Yeah, that is a direct fluff pointer

Also, Space Marines cannot take over defended worlds on their lonesome. Astartes were intentionally hamstrung after the Horus Heresy specifically so they couldn't capture their own planets if they tried to rebel again.

It was never about numbers, it was more about fleet assets.
The chapters dont have command over imperial navy foremost as a hinderance to going rouge with to much power.

The BT have about 7000 marines and the SW 2000 so numbers are irrelevant, if they wanted to they could beat any other army out there.
But as I said, with no fleet support other then their relatively small chapter fleets they cant amass enough power to threaten things on the levels of the HH.

Space Marines are special forces.

Then you must have missed the very same rulebook you yourself brought up just a couple of posts up

Besides, storm troopers are special forces, also in the canon fluff.

In the case of Chaos Space Marines, you're getting your fluff really mixed up. Nearly half the entire Imperium - that means half the Imperial Army, Navy and Mechanicum - joined Horus. This is mentioned many, many times. The HH would have been very short if it had just been 9 Legions against the entire Imperium.

Yeah I know, was a very bad example on my part.
If you want better ones then go through the IA articles, marine and csm power levels are spelled out black on white there.

Yea, Tau take longer to focus on objects in the distance, but i assume their helmets provide visual augmentation (they cant be purely aesthetic, right?).

It was also the reason for giving tau BS3 I think.
Therefore I´m amazed tau fanboys keep screaming tau should get BS4.
I never seen an unit of half blind people become expert marksmen using glasses.

I have astigmatism and when using glasses I'm a damn good shot

Retribution wrote:I have astigmatism and when using glasses I'm a damn good shot

And your an alien?

I thought that the marines where 1-100 guardsman wise. And its 1 marine could do the same amount of damage as 100 guardsman, not that they could take each other on.

Pyriel- wrote:Hardly, if IAs doesnt count as direct SM canon fluff then I dont know what.

Everything with a GW stamp is canon, I don't know what you mean by 'direct' canon. Also, I don't know what Imperial Armor books you've been reading, but they generally represent the SM realistically. Take the Vraks campaign; the Astartes only deploy a handful of times throughout the... what was it, decade long campaign? They always performed specialised missions. They never deployed to destroy entire armies, the Krieg (Guardsmen) supported by Titan legions did that. It's the same for Chaos. The traitor guardsmen did most of the fighting.

Pyriel- wrote:

Rube wrote:Space Marines are special forces.

Then you must have missed the very same rulebook you yourself brought up just a couple of posts up

What did I miss? Please be more specific.

Pyriel- wrote:If you want better ones then go through the IA articles, marine and csm power levels are spelled out black on white there.

'Powerlevels'..? Yeah, too much DBZ. ;P

I have astigmatism and when using glasses I'm a damn good shot

Would you be selected for a military crack unit?
Dont think so...

Since you might be a fine shot during perfect circumstances with nice weather, no stress, glasses firmly on your nose but in real life combat you´d be crawling through mud with foggy glasses and rain on your face and the glasses and with a constant risk of damaging them, dropping them etc etc and THEN you are no longer anything but a half blind shooter.

'Powerlevels'..? Yeah, too much DBZ. ;P

Well excuse me Mr. Perfect that English is not my primary language.
To use verbal pointers as an excuse of your own points speaks volumes about how little substance you have to back your claim that 1 SM = 10 guardsmen.

Everything with a GW stamp is canon

And the latest also supercedes the older!
Or do you also want me to believe marines are superstitious witchery tinkers who are all convicted slave criminals who use lasguns and eldar shuriken weapons and that the space wolves home fortress in reality looks like a small foreign legion outpost on a small mountain top?

I don't know what you mean by 'direct' canon. Also, I don't know what Imperial Armor books you've been reading, but they generally represent the SM realistically. Take the Vraks campaign; the Astartes only deploy a handful of times throughout the... what was it, decade long campaign? They always performed specialised missions. They never deployed to destroy entire armies, the Krieg (Guardsmen) supported by Titan legions did that. It's the same for Chaos. The traitor guardsmen did most of the fighting.

Index Astartes!
Considered to be "the" canon marine and csm fluff.
You should read up on that instead of trying to point the issue away at imperial armour which is not canon fluff and also a very, very bad one as well.
After you do so I can have a debate with you about marines and what GW considers them to be able to do.

What did I miss? Please be more specific.

Well where should I start...

That individual guardsmen are irrelevant maybe?
Or that a guardsman can never hope to possess a marines battle prowess?

That marines annihilate orks while outnumbered 1-200 both in ranged as well as melee combat? (and you yap about a marine being worth 10 guardsmen, lol)
To make matters even more embarrassing to you as you quoted the 5:ed rulebook it is clearly stated in said book that what 100 space marines do 10 000 normal humans could not have hoped to achieve.
If you like math that´s a direct comparison ratio of 1-100 (and then some since they actually won big time contrary to "not hope to achieve").

That 50 space marines is enough to end rebellions of thousands?
That a thousand marines can decide the fate of a whole sub sector (with no outside support mind you)?

Stormtroopers: in IG codex have the exact same mission profiles as special forces do...marines have not.


So the next time you ask me to point out what you have missed in the same book you yourself referred to, be more careful.
And all along you claim a marine is worth 10 guardsmen, well LOL
If it makes you feel any better I´m sure I have misspelled some words here and there or used the wrong one that you can exploit and point out in order to make your 1-10 argument feel more valid.
In my opinion you have nothing substantial what so ever as the vast majority of canon fluff simply laughs at the 1-10 notion.

Okay, I'm going to make this brief and it's going to be my last response to you, as the tone of this discussion is sliding downhill rapidly.

Pyriel- wrote:Well excuse me Mr. Perfect that English is not my primary language.
To use verbal pointers as an excuse of your own points speaks volumes about how little substance you have to back your claim that 1 SM = 10 guardsmen.

It had nothing to do with your English (which is fine by the way), powerlevel was a common term used in DBZ, and it's use in the common vernacular can probably be attributed largely to it.

Pyriel- wrote:

Everything with a GW stamp is canon

And the latest also supercedes the older!

No, GW have said the the older fluff is as canon as the newer fluff. It's all equally canon, and contradicts itself on purpose.

Pyriel- wrote:
Index Astartes!
Considered to be "the" canon marine and csm fluff.

It really isn't, and I'm not really sure where you got that idea. They were articles published in White Dwarf, which meant they weren't as heavily supervised, quality checked or edited as what goes into a codex. I doubt a lot of them had any more quality control performed on them than a run through Word spellchecker, and even then...

Pyriel- wrote:You should read up on that instead of trying to point the issue away at imperial armour which is not canon fluff and also a very, very bad one as well.

I consider White Dwarf articles (Index Astartes included) to be poorly written crap rushed out every month as padding, but it's still canon as it has the GW logo on it. My opinion of whether it's bad or not does not affect it's canonical state. Imperial Armor has the GW logo on it, it IS canon, and some of the very best fluff in my opinion. Certainly better than White Dwarf or Black Library.

Pyriel- wrote:That individual guardsmen are irrelevant maybe?

Agreed, an individual Guardsman is irrelevant. Luckily they outnumber Space Marines 20,000,000 to 1. Twenty million guardsmen are not irrelevant.

Pyriel- wrote:Or that a guardsman can never hope to possess a marines battle prowess?

I never said they could. I said 10 Guardsmen could.

Pyriel- wrote:That marines annihilate orks while outnumbered 1-200 both in ranged as well as melee combat? (and you yap about a marine being worth 10 guardsmen, lol)
To make matters even more embarrassing to you as you quoted the 5:ed rulebook it is clearly stated in said book that what 100 space marines do 10 000 normal humans could not have hoped to achieve.

Which is what I said. Space Marines do the specialised tasks that the Guardsmen's can't power through with numbers alone (f.ex a single Astartes could take on more than 10 Guardsmen if he fought them in an enclosed space, single file. If all 10 Guardsmen can't fire at once, they are at a disadvantage where the SM is at none), but in a stand up fight on an open battlefield between 100 Space Marines and 10,000 Guardsmen the SM would be a thin paste on the floor after the initial salvo.

Also, your tone is severly NOT appreciated. I can understand if you misconstrued the comment about DBZ as an insult, which it wasn't intended as, but I really have no interest in discussing anything with you if you're going to outright insult me.

It had nothing to do with your English (which is fine by the way), powerlevel was a common term used in DBZ, and it's use in the common vernacular can probably be attributed largely to it.

Dont even know what dbz is.

No, GW have said the the older fluff is as canon as the newer fluff. It's all equally canon, and contradicts itself on purpose.

Funny, they also said newer is more valid then older.
As old fluff is sometimes VERY different from new one this is the reasonable logical approach.

Saying that Roboute Gulliman is both an imperial guardsman AND a space marine promarch and claimin it is equally true is laughable.
And this is also why I dont take anything you say seriously.

It really isn't, and I'm not really sure where you got that idea. They were articles published in White Dwarf, which meant they weren't as heavily supervised, quality checked or edited as what goes into a codex. I doubt a lot of them had any more quality control performed on them than a run through Word spellchecker, and even then...

Actually it is, GW authors wrote them approved by GW.
But since you bring up SM codexes, would you like me to annihilate your notion that 1SM = 10 guardsmen using those as a source instead?
Would that be an approved source to you?

Imperial Armor has the GW logo on it, it IS canon, and some of the very best fluff in my opinion. Certainly better than White Dwarf or Black Library.

Yeah right!
Imperial armour marines are veterans with 50 missions under their belt.
Funny since a marine is easily 100 years old to be considered a veteran.
That means Imperial armour books, with their so called canon fluff, tell us that marines have more free time between battles then even guardsmen trainees do.
Its like claiming a marine terminator has only been part of 50 combat missions and this nobody will ever take seriously. Get used to it.

To further point out the flaw in your "logo" reasoning then all BL books and SM stories that have the a GW logo on them are equally valid and the imperial armour crap that it is is suddenly outnumbered a hundred to one.

Agreed, an individual Guardsman is irrelevant. Luckily they outnumber Space Marines 20,000,000 to 1. Twenty million guardsmen are not irrelevant.

Irrelevant as it has nothing to do with a marine being worth 10 guardsmen.

I never said they could. I said 10 Guardsmen could.

Laughable at best but you are perfectly entitled to your personal opinion.

Which is what I said. Space Marines do the specialised tasks that the Guardsmen's can't power through with numbers alone (f.ex a single Astartes could take on more than 10 Guardsmen if he fought them in an enclosed space, single file. If all 10 Guardsmen can't fire at once, they are at a disadvantage where the SM is at none), but in a stand up fight on an open battlefield between 100 Space Marines and 10,000 Guardsmen the SM would be a thin paste on the floor after the initial salvo.

Dont try to weasel out of this one. The SM fought the orks 200-1 on an open battle field, not hiding in a cave having one ork come in one at a time. You know the 4:ed rulebook started this claim and the BL novel with a GW logo on it (canon fluff according to you) further elaborated on this.



Insults or not, we simply have nothing to debate about. You use imperial armour and old, poor and outdated fluff to excuse something that it currently laughable (you claim by default that Gulliman was an imperial guard leader and that this is just as true as he was a primarch, that says it all to me) while I use the rule book and codexes itself (apart from the IA articles) and if we are to use your logo-argument, I will use all BL books too to counter it.
I have much more substance backing me up then you, period.
Neither you nor me will ever sway the other person so what´s the point in further discussion?
Anyway, its up to you, I´m game and all the SM codexes I have at my disposal are waiting to point it out even more to you.

I have to be honest your kind of overshooting on SM power.

1 marine couldn't kill 200 Orks, especially not in melee. The codexes would agree. And movie marine stats aren't the true fluff power.

I think the marines stats in game are fine, they have better stats than pretty much any other basic troop, what that isn't good enough for you?

Scout: Ws4 Bs4 S5 T5 W1 I5 A1 Ld8 Sv4+
Marine: Ws5 Bs5 S5 T5 W2 I5 A2 Ld8 Sv3+/6++
Sergeant: Ws5 Bs5 S5 T5 W2 I5 A3 Ld9 Sv3+/6++
Terminator: Ws5 Bs5 S5 T5 W2 I5 A3 Ld9 Sv2+/5++

Chaplains and Librarians would be Ws6, Bs5, Ld10 and so on. Captains and Chapter Masters would be Ws7. These special characters would also have more attacks and wounds. Combat Shields would have a 5+ invulnurable save.

Plague Marine: Ws5 Bs5 S5 T5(6) W2 I5 A2 Ld8 Sv3+/6++, Feel No Pain

Ogryn: Ws3 Bs3 S4 T4 W3 I2 A3 Ld6 Sv5+

Heavy Bolter Str6 Ap4 Range 36" Type Heavy 3
Boltgun Str5 Ap5 Range 24" Type Rapid Fire
Bolt Pistol Str5 Ap5 Range 12" Type Pistol

Ripper Gun Str4 Ap- Range 12" Type Assault 2

I particularly wanted to compare an Ogryn and a Space Marine. While an Ogryn is much bigger (and therefore has more wounds) than a Space Marine, a Space Marine is stronger, tougher, quicker, and better trained than an Ogryn. However, an Ogryn is particularly savage in close combat and therefore has more attacks. The bolt weapon stats would only apply to Space Marine bolt weapons, not Imperial Guard bolt weapons. The power armor stats would only apply to Space Marine power armor, not Inquisitor power armor. As far as game balance is concerned, the regular Space Marines would still have only one wound but would be more expensive. Ogryns would then cost about 25 to 30 points as opposed to 40. I could see Tau (not Kroot, Vespid, etc.) having Bs4. I would think that chainswords would be rending, but for game balance I could see that being ignored.

Necron Warrior: Ws4 Bs4 S5 T5 W3 I2 A2 Ld10 Sv3+/6++

Gauss Flayer Str5 Ap5 Rapid Fire, Gauss

There would be relative adjustments for other units in the Necron Army, but I am not familiar enough with Necrons to post that.

Remember that these would be the only changes.

Utopias Astartes wrote:Scout: Ws4 Bs4 S5 T5 W1 I5 A1 Ld8 Sv4+
Marine: Ws5 Bs5 S5 T5 W2 I5 A2 Ld8 Sv3+/6++
Sergeant: Ws5 Bs5 S5 T5 W2 I5 A3 Ld9 Sv3+/6++
Terminator: Ws5 Bs5 S5 T5 W2 I5 A3 Ld9 Sv2+/5++

Chaplains and Librarians would be Ws6, Bs5, Ld10 and so on. Captains and Chapter Masters would be Ws7. These special characters would also have more attacks and wounds. Combat Shields would have a 5+ invulnurable save.

Plague Marine: Ws5 Bs5 S5 T5(6) W2 I5 A2 Ld8 Sv3+/6++, Feel No Pain

Ogryn: Ws3 Bs3 S4 T4 W3 I2 A3 Ld6 Sv5+

Heavy Bolter Str6 Ap4 Range 36" Type Heavy 3
Boltgun Str5 Ap5 Range 24" Type Rapid Fire
Bolt Pistol Str5 Ap5 Range 12" Type Pistol

Ripper Gun Str4 Ap- Range 12" Type Assault 2

I particularly wanted to compare an Ogryn and a Space Marine. While an Ogryn is much bigger (and therefore has more wounds) than a Space Marine, a Space Marine is stronger, tougher, quicker, and better trained than an Ogryn. However, an Ogryn is particularly savage in close combat and therefore has more attacks. The bolt weapon stats would only apply to Space Marine bolt weapons, not Imperial Guard bolt weapons. The power armor stats would only apply to Space Marine power armor, not Inquisitor power armor. As far as game balance is concerned, the regular Space Marines would still have only one wound but would be more expensive. Ogryns would then cost about 25 to 30 points as opposed to 40. I could see Tau (not Kroot, Vespid, etc.) having Bs4. I would think that chainswords would be rending, but for game balance I could see that being ignored.

Necron Warrior: Ws4 Bs4 S5 T5 W3 I2 A2 Ld10 Sv3+/6++

Gauss Flayer Str5 Ap5 Rapid Fire, Gauss

There would be relative adjustments for other units in the Necron Army, but I am not familiar enough with Necrons to post that.

Remember that these would be the only changes.

Still man, how do you remotely think a marine is STRONGER or TOUGHER than an ogryn? Marines are half the size! Physics disagrees with your stats.

I remember the Horus Heresy books stating a space marine is equal to 100 guardsmen, which seems more in line with the their fluff and so forth.

A fluff orgyn will probably be Ws3 Bs3 S6 T5 W4 I2 or 3 A4 Ld? Sv5+ since, from what I've seen, they're a bit too dumb to be fast or have any 'skill' in combat or shooting.