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I didn't say anything about you as a player. I believe Blood angel drop pods only hold 10, and I don't think terminators can even take them as dedicated transports (if I'm wrong, then I sincerely apologize).

But I just don't want to play with terminators or drop pods in a list like this, it just doesn't fit, and I would rather have that 6th troop choice, and I'm just stating that the max troops allow you to have a more aggressive playstyle and not worry about protecting your troops at all costs. If your troop choices are good, then yes, they can be the workhorses of your army. I'm sorry if what I said came across wrong and offended you.

Here is a modified list though, just for funsies-

Librarian 100
Shield
Lance

Corbulo 105

Inquisitor 35
Emperors tarot

5 Assault Marines x6 990
Razorback
Lascannon/TL Plasmagun
Hunter Killer Missile

Baal Predator x3 345
Flamestorm Cannon

Predator x2 290
Autocannon
Lascannon Sponsons
Hunter Killer Missile

Predator 135
Autocannon
Lascannon Sponsons


The tarot and corbulo combo gives you about an 85% chance to get first turn, so you can scout up the baal's, then shoot the silly amount of hunter killers/lascannons/autocannons/plasmas, cripple his shooting, and hopefully demech a couple units and flame them with your s6 ap3 templates. lol.

No harm/no foul. I could also be completely wrong about the termintor/pod combo. I know the wolves can do it so i figured it transferred over to us as well.

I think the 'core' of the list is 4 AS/RB's and 6 Preds and anything past that it is hard to screw up. For instance, adding some more AV 13 in the form of ripper dreads could also be an option.

While I don't think the 'All seeing eye' is essential it does rock the house for competitive play and is a much better bargain on a more useful character than has ever had anything like that before.

Heh, adding in the Tarot and you are more thank likely going to get shanked in the parking lot after the tournament.

Yeah, I was going to do the bjorn/tarot combo with the wolves, but bjorn is very very expensive. corbulo is much cheaper, and has great utilility. The above list just makes me giggle. 1 hunter killer is stupid, but firing 8/9/lots is just funny first turn, especially when you almost always get first turn, and their on fast platforms that are firing lascannons and plasmaguns too. And yes, you're probably right about the shanked part. lol

thank you for the help/advice. I didn't even think about corbulo before. And can furiosos get hunter killers like ironclads? If so, I think that is great idea as well. LOL

Looks pretty horrific with the Las-sponson Perds now. Addingh Corbulo and and the Tarot Inquis is just sick.

I'm glad you like it. any other ideas?

Much better, though I'm a little skeptical of this style of list in general. That being said, this is one of the best versions of it I've seen.

Fetterkey - keeping things in reserve is a decent way to stop heavy shoot armies that are going to go first against you. Coming in from reserve all these fast vehicles can still fire 100% of their weapons. It just takes half of the preds coming on to down 3 vendettas. That is not counting the razorbacks.

With Corbulo you are radically increasing your odds at going first - then you just have to bank on the other guy not seizing.

fetterkey- do you have any suggestions as to how I can change it so that you aren't skeptical?

blood angel-- IG armies can counter-Reserves you, and do it better with the appropriate advisors.

tjdieter2191-- Not particularly, as I'm not skeptical of this list itself, I'm skeptical of Razorback spam in general. This is by far the best Razorback spam list that I've seen, and I would definitely use the Corbulo variant of the list.

If they win the roll to go first do you think they are going to say 'i'll keep all my crap in reserves?'

While it is not uncommon to take the Officer of the Fleet (i do all the time in my IG list) with 12+ things in the list that can destroy, or at least keep from shooting, vendettas (or chimeras or anything with a chimera chassis) your still not too at risk from the IG gun line because on average you're getting almost 4 of them in on round 2.

Just sayin'

blood angel wrote:If they win the roll to go first do you think they are going to say 'i'll keep all my crap in reserves?'

Reserves don't have to be all or nothing. Also, if you reserve against a Master of the Fleet army, you will probably get 3 out of your 9 actual anti-tank units in, which will be able to kill or suppress 3 enemy units at most. You will probably not succeed in doing this with all applicable units.

So basically as far as razorback spam goes this list looks pretty much perfect I really can't see anything to add.

@fling- you even like the hunter killers? When I suggest them, most people go crazy, telling me I'm stupid. lol.

But sweet, I'm starting to feel a lot more accomplished in my list building skills, especially if it only takes three refinements to get to 'perfect' lol.

I'm still probably going to play with the vindicators, but most likely with the addition of corbulo, just because it seems for fun to play. Like I said, moving my models=fun, and I did the modified lists so that others could see my thought process, and if they liked what they saw.. steal the idea. lol.


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@fetterkey- I think if you deploy correctly (I think you can manage to get half of your army in cover, and the other have to be covered by SoS), then I think the army is durable enough to soak up the alpha strike and keep firing. 13 front armour and cover saves is going to be quite difficult for even guard to deal with at range. If anything, I would be afraid of railguns, but even then it's still going to be a pain. With the combination of corbulo/tarot, having about an 85% chance to go first is incredible, and it usually should not be a problem.

And should I change the baal preds back to assault cannons? I just gave them flamestorms for funsies, to be honest. lol

I've become a believer in HKMs for their turn 1 use. They've also got better LOS, in general, than sponsons do. Personally, I think you've got plenty of AT without the Las-sponsons on the Predators. I'd go HBs, myself, on those. I'm not sure what all the points values are on those, but it should be enough to equip the rest of your armor with HKMs. If you've got enough extra points, get some HF sponsons for the Baals. I'm not convinced by Assault Cannons anymore. In 4th, they were the end-all, be-all. Now, they're overpriced for what they do (how many Tornado LS do you see around anymore?). I think that's still the case for the Baal.

The opponent can still seize right? So no matter what there's that 1/6, so that's something to keep in mind.

As for you wanting first, even if I get it I'd give it to you. Going second is as powerful IMO.

tjdieter2191 wrote:And should I change the baal preds back to assault cannons? I just gave them flamestorms for funsies, to be honest. lol

I'd definitely go with the twin ACs.

What about the assaulting with this list? you move up the first turn, firing away with your preds, then you disembark the second, but then they can't assault.... what you going to do?

Your assaulting is secondary to the blasting. Just like with Zerks or Space Wolves or whatever, you move to where you want to be 'next round' to be able to get out and assault before moving the tank.

I think you will murder people either way, the predator heavy list looks a little better than the vindi list in my opinion, either one and I'd have have to change my underwear after you out all those tanks on the table. I can't believe they let the predators be fast... seriously its just nuts, I have not seen the codex but are they at least more points? is there any drawback?

Oh yeah and who cares about vandetta's or even mechdar.... all the tanks in this list are fast meaning you can add a foot to there firing range, no way those will out maneuver this list and even if the take a tank or 2 there going down in the next shooting phase, hands down.

Also, there's no such thing as "too many troops" in this edition... 2/3's of the missions are objectives, spamming troops never hurts.

This list is going to be real fun to play so make sure you write up some batreps up when you test it.

It will be funny though if you ever play a deffroller army that manages to run over a few tanks a turn, I doubt they would get close enough though with all that las cannon goodness and =1 for open top, still though... it would be funny.

These list will bring back the hammer units.

Lol this is pretty much my space marine list.

death by monkeys- You already stated why you never seen land speeders with assault cannons anymore- they're too expensive, and their very fragile as well. The land speeder tornado used to be much cheaper. The razorbacks are the same amount of points as a land speeder tornado (how funny is that?), has armour 11, moves just as fast, is a transport, and is twinlinked. So yes, I think the assault cannons are worth it in this case, but like everyone else has stated.. the las/plas is still probably better (its a shame, I really like those assault cannons too lol). And I wouldn't ever put heavy flamer sponsons on the baal. They're a main weapon.. so you will only ever be able to fire one when you move 12 (which you will have to, to make the flamer effective... unless your opponent is an imbecile lol)

sanctjud- Normally going second is just as powerful as going first. But in this case, you want to go first so you can deny this like the alpha strike. If this list goes first, I'm completely serious when I say that it can seriously cripple (shake/stun enough vehicles that you can't return fire, or focus fire on any foot fire support units) your army in the first turn, and then continue to wittle away at you every turn after that.

fetterkey- yes, I will change it back. I think the duality of the assault cannon is much better.

cjsuner- the list doesn't assault, it fills you with bullets. unless it is extremely in my favor (guard/tau) and I have been blown out of my transport. I bought the taxis, I intend to use 'em. lol

IG88- I don't think this list will have any problems with battlewagons. I'm so mobile that getting side shots should be a piece of cake, and once I do, the amount of firepower I have, the battlewagons go poof.

I haven't been posting on here for long, (obviously) if I were to post a battlereport with this list, where do I put it?

CKO- What do you mean 'bring back the hammer units'?
Are you talking about the big expensive units that wreck everything they touch? Because if so, I'm not scared of any of those units, considerings those units are CC oriented, and they will have a tough time catching me/hitting me in CC because I will just move fast if needed.

Asherian- surely you're not referring to a vanilla marine list? Blood angels do razorback spam much much better, if you couldn't tell.

The list is solid I think everyone knows that av 13 spam is going to be the most popular build, but I think this list does not match up well against vulkan list. Assault terminators with a nice mix of melta weapons will be hard for you to deal with, 30 marines are not that scary.

CKO- the only melta that marines have that moves just as fast as this list does is mm/hf speeders. And guess what, they're target number 1. And with this much firepower, even if you move flat out, you will at least be shaken/stunned, if not dead. Dreads only move 6, and can be avoided (especially with the most updated list, because it has very good range), and then you have tacticals. Which will move up 12 first turn, not fire, and then be either avoided, or shaken and ignored. I don't care about vulkan. I don't care if you're twin-linked if you cant fire. The only lists I'm really threatened by (not even scared of) are lists that have a similar build-- many many targets, and a lot of long ranged, high strength firepower. Thats guard, tau, and a few marine builds.

I just replied about the assault terminators. What the hell are they going to do against fast moving vehicles/a hail of bullets/lascannons and plasma guns up the ying yang. Oh yeah, either do nothing, or die. awesome.

I'm like 60/40 in favor of the assault cannons. Gives a bit more versatility but really, if you can alpha strike a horde army with your Baals and the flamestorm on turn one they are for sure going to be fighting an uphill battle for the entire rest of the game and it helps thin out the hordes in case you actually have to end up assaulting them with the small unit sizes.

Just sort of being devils advocate at this point. I like the range and the potential to pop av 14 or murder high toughness creatures with the assault cannons.



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CKO wrote:The list is solid I think everyone knows that av 13 spam is going to be the most popular build, but I think this list does not match up well against vulkan list. Assault terminators with a nice mix of melta weapons will be hard for you to deal with, 30 marines are not that scary.

The only prayer that vulkan has is with drop pods - which is viable. But that is at best a coin flip since you'll only get half the army down on the first turn facing the entire BA gun line. You kill a couple of tanks, maybe - because don't forget about cover and the 5+ save from the lib, and then get to put your entire 'first strike' force back in the box.

blood angel- How many armies can do 'horde', let alone even moderately effectively? Oh right, Nids. Guard are too slow, can't get to objectives and are very susceptible to refused flank. We all know horde orks is bad. lol. So, lets see which is better against nids.. they will have tervigons to continue to spawn more gaunts, so killing a few first turn aren't going to help, you're going to need to kill the tervigons. Assault cannons are far superior in this role. Kill the tervigons and you cripple the army. The only other thing you would shoot at would be hive guard/zoanthropes, or tyrannofexs. The flamestorm is probably better against the hive guard, but much less effective against the other two. So even against the best horde army, the assault cannon will probably be less effective, a wash at best. Against everything else, the assault is probably better.

Like I said, I put the flamestorm in for funsies.



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Uh no. Full drop pod armies aren't viable in the vanilla marine book. Period. We already went over the reserves option, and guess what, that's what you do against a drop marine army, every time. Vulkan is much better in an army that at least mostly starts on the table. If you really want a drop pod, put in suicide sternguard, at least they will hit reliably with vulkan. A vulkan army with mm/hf dreads and speeders, and mm/flamer tactical squads is a viable army, but it suffers the same problem my first list had- range.

Drop pods dont care how fast you are and they prefer to go second, there are openings in the list I know I play against stelek list all the time.

CKO- You just reserve against a drop pod army, deny them the alpha strike, and it doesn't matter who goes first and who goes second. Half of the pods will come down first turn, and when they do, they cannot be placed in a good position because you will not know where the opponent is. So go ahead, castle up in the middle with all your pods, with your now foot army with all short ranged weapons. Or you can pick to drop down on my table edge, but I can guarantee you won't cover enough of it to prevent me from just stacking one half of what you have on the table. Guess who wins there too? Full drop pod armies aren't viable in the vanilla book.

hey, don't go all internet rage on me I did point out that I was being devils advocate for the fun times of being able to vroom vroom across the table and template someone.

Very true about the reserves against a DP army, unless you give that inquis a couple of mystics. Then his entire DP army is picked up as soon as it hits the table... if you had flame storm cannons

bloodangel- I only got internet rage when you said that full drop pods where not only viable.. but also the best way to run Vulkan. and I went all 'oh no he didn't!' lol

But yes, scouting, fast, flamestorm cannons is hilarious, but probably not the best choice. Just like the TL assault cannons on the razorbacks, and fast vindicators. There are just better choices. (can you tell that I'm bitter about the first list not being the most effective? lol)

and I would love to put mystics on the inquisitor (especially considering my friend wants to do the all deepstriking jump marine army), but he doesn't have anywhere to go since he is no longer an independent character. Unless there were a few stormravens...