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Caught this from Slashdot (http://tinyurl.com/35kb7t5) and came over here to see what you guys thought about it. First post at the top of the news section: GW 2010 Price Rises

Vote with your wallets. Seriously - there are great gaming companies out there that would love your business.

I already am. Resin casters like chapterhouse and ebay bits sellers (two things that for some reason make GW crazy) are getting my cash.

I agree totally with Grunt_For_Christ .
I can understand what GW is doing and see sense in such actions but I can't understand the way they do this. They have a new ip section chief and she seems to do her job, but they should also think about hiring new PR chief that would slap her in the back of the head with a bamboo stick and teach her polite way to solve such matters. Especially considering it's a hobby bussiness not a hardcore one.

"Hobby business" still equals "business".

The new IP chief is probably being hassled by EA/Mythic to better protect their licensees. GW's responsibility isn't just to their shareholders once they start licensing.

I've little to contribute other than to say that it would be very interesting to see this suit actually play out, instead of the typical "GW-brandishes-lawyer, victim-ceases-and-desists".

I'd love it if came to this, since Curse actually invested money in buying and operating WA, presumably on the rationale that they'd be obtaining the goodwill associated with the site. Maybe they have enough incentive to fight it out.

Kanluwen wrote:"Hobby business" still equals "business".

Can't argue with that - and I never did . But this still doesn't change the fact there are several ways to solve things. And IMO when you're thinking about "bussiness" it's good to think about the ways that don't hurt the company's image .

Przemas wrote:I agree totally with Grunt_For_Christ .
I can understand what GW is doing and see sense in such actions but I can't understand the way they do this. They have a new ip section chief and she seems to do her job, but they should also think about hiring new PR chief that would slap her in the back of the head with a bamboo stick and teach her polite way to solve such matters. Especially considering it's a hobby bussiness not a hardcore one.

Thank you. And by the way, have you read the actual brief GW and their team put out? They claim that:

1. The mark warhammer alliance is using has caused egregious and irrevocable harm to the Warhammer brand and that their mark is similar in all ways to GW's logo.

2. They also claim that there are no legal processes for solving this dispute other than to seek compensation on at least four different counts.

3. They profess that the game is among the most famous games of its kind and has worldwide recognition as being a leader in the genre.

Can anyone tell me the numbers of people playing the warhammer version of warcraft and how they stack up? Or perhaps the numbers of subscriptions GW is pulling in from the game which seems to have largely been forgotten by the gaming community at large? I just want to be fair and see if the game really is the end all, be all MMORPG GW is claiming.

jamsessionein wrote:I've little to contribute other than to say that it would be very interesting to see this suit actually play out, instead of the typical "GW-brandishes-lawyer, victim-ceases-and-desists".

I'd love it if came to this, since Curse actually invested money in buying and operating WA, presumably on the rationale that they'd be obtaining the goodwill associated with the site. Maybe they have enough incentive to fight it out.

Bull.

They bought the site as an established community, and they're trying their hardest to make it seem like they're being bullied in the forums over there.

Claiming "they were never warned/contacted", etc is ridiculous. If anything, GW is well-known for, as you said "GW-brandishes lawyer with C&D--victim ceases and desists".

They do not just up and go after someone with no warning as is being claimed here. Even that petty stunt that Board Game Geeks did of flashing the C&D on their front page mentioned that they were given a warning and contacted by a lawyer prior to it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:

Przemas wrote:I agree totally with Grunt_For_Christ .
I can understand what GW is doing and see sense in such actions but I can't understand the way they do this. They have a new ip section chief and she seems to do her job, but they should also think about hiring new PR chief that would slap her in the back of the head with a bamboo stick and teach her polite way to solve such matters. Especially considering it's a hobby bussiness not a hardcore one.

Thank you. And by the way, have you read the actual brief GW and their team put out? They claim that:

1. The mark warhammer alliance is using has caused egregious and irrevocable harm to the Warhammer brand and that their mark is similar in all ways to GW's logo.

2. They also claim that there are no legal processes for solving this dispute other than to seek compensation on at least four different counts.

3. They profess that the game is among the most famous games of its kind and has worldwide recognition as being a leader in the genre.

Can anyone tell me the numbers of people playing the warhammer version of warcraft and how they stack up? Or perhaps the numbers of subscriptions GW is pulling in from the game which seems to have largely been forgotten by the gaming community at large? I just want to be fair and see if the game really is the end all, be all MMORPG GW is claiming.

You're not reading it correctly, mate.
1. The "mark" is the title, alongside of the icon that appears on your browser in a tab(using an Ork Glyph) as far as I can tell.
2. There isn't. We're not getting the full story out of Curse, and the petty manner in which they announced the lawsuit is a pretty obvious to get Curse Network affiliates and members into a bit of a tiff where they'll start hollering about it elsewhere, bringing even more bad press than just "OHEMGEEGW'S SUING A 'FAN' SITE!", but never mentioning anything about the profit that Curse makes from an IP that isn't theirs, etc.
3. They profess that the brand name of "Warhammer" is what's being damaged by Curse Network claiming that they are, in fact, in a form of "alliance" with Games Workshop and its Warhammer brand.

And again:
GW isn't pulling in subscriptions. EA/Mythic is. Much like the Blood Bowl instance, GW is under obligation to protect its licensees and the properties they license out.

Yes, since EA/Mythic are wondering if GW is smoking crack right now.

Actually, Kanluwen, GW is claiming they couldn't contact them at all because Curse supposedly had too many false fronts for them to try and sort through, reading here in the list of complaints...

...never mind that Curse's logo is right on the site...

http://www.curse.com/content/AboutCurse.aspx

Where's the contact information?
Where's specific names to contact, etc?

It doesn't matter if Curse's logo is on the site. If Curse has no way to be contacted to legally serve a C&D, etc--then they have no contact info.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually, I found contact info.

Do you know the only contact information Curse gives?

Their head of advertising. Which is not who you contact for a legal matter.

Why not? He or She is a contact for Curse so you request the information for the head of the legal department and if said person refuses to give it to you now you can say that they are stalling.

It would be the same than me going into a GWs shop and request an address for sending a complain letter.

2. There isn't. We're not getting the full story out of Curse, and the petty manner in which they announced the lawsuit is a pretty obvious to get Curse Network affiliates and members into a bit of a tiff where they'll start hollering about it elsewhere, bringing even more bad press than just "OHEMGEEGW'S SUING A 'FAN' SITE!", but never mentioning anything about the profit that Curse makes from an IP that isn't theirs, etc.

Neither are we getting the full story from GW and if the reasons given here for the claim are the only ones in the civil suit (meaning there are not additional documents we are not aware of) Curse might be lying but GW surely IS lying.

M.

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:
Can anyone tell me the numbers of people playing the warhammer version of warcraft and how they stack up? Or perhaps the numbers of subscriptions GW is pulling in from the game which seems to have largely been forgotten by the gaming community at large? I just want to be fair and see if the game really is the end all, be all MMORPG GW is claiming.

http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/150k-1m.png

It appears to be being beaten by the original Everquest. It's a huge failure that's apparent to pretty much everyone that plays those games, especially after last month's billing fiasco which did a lot more to harm the game's reputation than any stupid website could.

Wow, 800K at it's peak. I wonder how long it'll take an MMO to dethrone WoW (no let's not get into a WoW bashing fight as it's way off topic, that and I love WoW).

I remember people saying it's going to dethrone WoW. 800k vs 11M.

Hmm.

After reading about this, GW really has too many irons in the fire. They spread out really quickly after about 2004 (right when DOW came about). Now they are feeling the strain from trying to do too many things at once. Go back to making models that don't have casting flaws and continue cornering your Niche (which they are losing their grip on).

Going after that Website (post 09) was legitimate since the new ownership was making a profit at their expense. However, using an eviscerator to cut off a small tumor has resulted in a large PR mess. If PR was a stat theirs would be a -8.

Miguelsan wrote:Why not? He or She is a contact for Curse so you request the information for the head of the legal department and if said person refuses to give it to you now you can say that they are stalling.

It would be the same than me going into a GWs shop and request an address for sending a complain letter.

2. There isn't. We're not getting the full story out of Curse, and the petty manner in which they announced the lawsuit is a pretty obvious to get Curse Network affiliates and members into a bit of a tiff where they'll start hollering about it elsewhere, bringing even more bad press than just "OHEMGEEGW'S SUING A 'FAN' SITE!", but never mentioning anything about the profit that Curse makes from an IP that isn't theirs, etc.

Neither are we getting the full story from GW and if the reasons given here for the claim are the only ones in the civil suit (meaning there are not additional documents we are not aware of) Curse might be lying but GW surely IS lying.

M.

We're not getting any story out of GW.

Because it's a legal case not a public relations ploy.

Then GW will pay the PR price again as the other party gives their own side of the story.

M.

Not only that, but GW has such a reputation for this sort of thing that it's extra damaging to finally be called out on it.

Particularly as you, a regular person, could find some contact information fairly quickly. Which is what a judge and jury will look at, since this is a civil suit, is what a reasonable person would do.

Kanluwen wrote:Bull.

They bought the site as an established community, and they're trying their hardest to make it seem like they're being bullied in the forums over there.

Claiming "they were never warned/contacted", etc is ridiculous. If anything, GW is well-known for, as you said "GW-brandishes lawyer with C&D--victim ceases and desists".

They do not just up and go after someone with no warning as is being claimed here. Even that petty stunt that Board Game Geeks did of flashing the C&D on their front page mentioned that they were given a warning and contacted by a lawyer prior to it.

I think you may be reading substantially more into my post than was intended, since I don't think I said anything to the contrary of what you followed up with.

I didn't assert anywhere that they had no prior warning. My assertion was that GW tends to brandish their legal arm without reluctance, and as a way of coercing the other party into doing what they want without actually litigating the matter in full. Just once, I'd like to actually see it reach adjudication.

The fact that "they bought the site as an established community" doesn't seem to contradict what I said about how Curse invested money into buying and operating WA to obtain the goodwill associated with the name. I figured since they had a vested financial interest in that purchase, and since changing the name would deprive them of the goodwill they were buying into, they might actually have enough motivation to litigate.

Kanluwen wrote:Do you know the only contact information Curse gives?

Their head of advertising. Which is not who you contact for a legal matter.

You could probably still serve that individual on agency grounds, given that I have no idea whether or not Curse actually has a legal division. I've heard of them only very faintly in passing, so I wouldn't know.

Edit: After five minutes of googling, I've ascertained the identity of their CEO, and that he's in the San Francisco Bay area. A further 3 minutes of looking at public records of corporate filings on Lexis Nexis and I've found all of the information about Curse, Inc, including Mr. Thieblot's name, that he's a registered agent, and his address. Any law firm worth a damn could do the same and go deliver service. I don't think Curse is quite as mysterious as you're making it out to be.

That information is not available to a whois search on the domain name.

Hence, it's improperly registered.

I might point out that the whois might not have been updated since the purchase. Remember that such information is updated annually when the URL is renewed, IIRC.

And once again: in a civil case, such as this, if the information came back incorrect, a reasonable person would look it up. Which is, again, what the judge and jury will be looking for. One of the irritating things with Tort is it's not just the law, it's how the jury perceives the plaintiff and defendant's actions.

The lawsuit was filed a year after the sale. The sale happened early in 2009.

Also, Curse apparently has had their fingers in the pie of Warhammer Alliance since 2007 without WA ever mentioning that the personal information/demographic information of WA's members was being given out by Curse.

You did read that membership information, right? After all, you agree to it...

*facepalm*

When most people joined as of 2005-2006, it wouldn't have mattered. It was a small site that wasn't giving out information other than what ads were getting clickthroughs.

Curse does not do that. Curse tracks things and has been since 2007, and uses the Premium Membership to its best effect. They -did not- warn members about Curse giving out their information until Curse actually bought the site.

Eh, I read it, and just gave them bad info. They have no idea who I really am. So, feel free to distribute the information of

First Name: Agent
Last Name: Spliff

(It suited my sense of humor)