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If characters who begin the game joined to a squad, benefit from Red Thirst, then that would imply that characters who join a squad with red thirst will also benefit from red thirst.

In my opinion the rule is unclear. . So either interpretation seems somewhat valid.

If we are going on rules as written... The book does say the 'entire squad'. And suggests that if one Blood Angel succumbs to the Red Thirst then all the Blood Angels nearby will gain Fearless and Furious Charge.

On the other hand the 40k rulebook never uses the word 'squad' when it talks about Joining ICs.

So long as we can all agree that IC would definitely loose Red Thirst if they left the squad then I don't really care either way.

Page 3 gives you that "squad, teams, sections" and similar are synonymous with "unit".

Yes, if a character in the squad has Red Thirst, then he will succumb to it along with his squad. You will care when he gains Furious Charge when he shouldn't have. Generally speaking, the BA characters without Red Thirst are already beefy enough.

Mahtamori wrote:Page 3 gives you that "squad, teams, sections" and similar are synonymous with "unit".

Yes, if a character in the squad has Red Thirst, then he will succumb to it along with his squad. You will care when he gains Furious Charge when he shouldn't have. Generally speaking, the BA characters without Red Thirst are already beefy enough.

No, HE WILL NOT. He is not part of the squad, he is only attached temporarily. He does not have the Red Thirst rule and will NEVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES gain the effects of the rule. The only thing that effects him is the USR Fearless, which effects him because the rules for USR's say so.

How hard is that to understand?

Consider this BA players. The IC is a unit in its own right. Say you have a librarian joining a regular BA squad. Does the squad gain his special rules? Like his ability to use psychic powers? No they don't. The red thirst is the same deal. Special rules are not shared between the units UNLESS EXPLICITY SPECIFIED.

Gwar! wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:Page 3 gives you that "squad, teams, sections" and similar are synonymous with "unit".

Yes, if a character in the squad has Red Thirst, then he will succumb to it along with his squad. You will care when he gains Furious Charge when he shouldn't have. Generally speaking, the BA characters without Red Thirst are already beefy enough.

No, HE WILL NOT. He is not part of the squad, he is only attached temporarily. He does not have the Red Thirst rule and will NEVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES gain the effects of the rule. The only thing that effects him is the USR Fearless, which effects him because the rules for USR's say so.

How hard is that to understand?

Time to chill and read again.

If the character has Red Thirst special rule, then yes that character will succumb as well.
If he does not, then SmackCakes should care if a character gain FC when according to RAW he shouldn't.
Correct?

No characters (Independent or otherwise) have TRT in the BA codex.

Gwar! wrote:No characters (Independent or otherwise) have TRT in the BA codex.

Then that is settled. I actually didn't check if any had, but I suppose the "yes, if" comes down to a hypothetical situation, nothing more.

Do the BA get character squad upgrades? I.e instead of a sergeant, you can take "veteran sergeant X". As that wouldn't be an IC, I can see a case for that type of model getting TRT.

IC's remain a whopping and resounding NO.

liam0404 wrote:Do the BA get character squad upgrades? I.e instead of a sergeant, you can take "veteran sergeant X". As that wouldn't be an IC, I can see a case for that type of model getting TRT.

IC's remain a whopping and resounding NO.

The only Upgrade character in the BA army is Lemartes, who is Death Company and so doesn't have TRT either.

Well that answers that!

Lemartes doesn't have it because he has full blown Black Rage.

Honour guard are subject to TRT and they come with a sanguinary novitiate and can have one member upgraded to a blood champion. The rule seems to apply to all blood angels fighting in groups.

I do not see why people think the IC needs to have the Red Thirst rule for it to effect him. Most units don't have Liturgies of Blood but if they are in the same squad as someone who does then they are subject to its effects. The Red Thirst rule explicitly states it effects the 'entire squad'.

I'm doubtful if the codex writers intended for TRT to effect ICs. But when I read the rule book, then I read the codex, then I read the rule book again... I have to say that like it or not, RAW appears to say that ICs are effected. If you don't want to interpret it like that then that's fine by me. But if someone insisted that was the case I don't see how they can be proven false unless GW clarifies it in an FAQ.

SmackCakes wrote:I do not see why people think the IC needs to have the Red Thirst rule for it to effect him. Most units don't have Liturgies of Blood but if they are in the same squad as someone who does then they are subject to its effects.

Because the rule says that it affects them.

The Red Thirst rule explicitly states it effects the 'entire squad'.

Which the IC is not part of.

I'm doubtful if the codex writers intended for TRT to effect ICs.

Good, because the RaW also indicates this.

But if someone insisted that was the case I don't see how they can be proven false unless GW clarifies it in an FAQ.

Except for the multitude of ways we have shown you time and time again in this thread.

@smack cakes

Sorry but you're wrong. If you can refute my example with the librarian above, you might have a point, but as has been said, unless somewhere it is said "BA" ics are affected by the red thirst, they are not - end of story.

SmackCakes:

What's the unit type of a Necron Destroyer?

Necron Destroyers are treated like jetbikes for the purposes of movement. They are not Jetbikes.

Likewise, an Independent Character is treated as part of the squad for the purposes of maintaining coherency, shooting, assaulting, and falling back. It is not part of the squad.

You're confusing "treated as" or "counts as for the purpose of" with "is."

Two radically different things in the BRB.

So then you are all saying that Vulkans rules do not effect walkers because they do not have ATSKNF which they have to lose?

Most read Vulkan's rule as not require something to be lost in order to gain the bonus.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:So then you are all saying that Vulkans rules do not effect walkers because they do not have ATSKNF which they have to lose?

Uh... want to show me where Vulkan's rule in any way, shape, or form replaces or removes ATSKNF?

Everything in your army loses Combat Tactics.

Every flamer, heavy flamer, multimelta, and meltagun in your army counts as twin-linked.

Every thunder hammer counts as master-crafted.

Nothing is being swapped out or replaced. Your units that have Combat Tactics lose Combat Tactics. Your flamers, heavy flamers, meltaguns, and multimeltas become twin-linked. Your thunder hammers become master-crafted. It's exceedingly simple.

...where's the confusion?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kirsanth wrote:Most read Vulkan's rule as not require something to be lost in order to gain the bonus.

Because it doesn't.

"If you include He'stan, then all units in your army lose the Combat Tactics special rule. Instead, all thunder hammers in your army will count as master-crafted, and all flamers, heavy flamer, meltaguns and multimeltas count as twin-linked."

Nowhere does it say that "all flamers on models that previously had the Combat Tactics special rule."

SaintHazard wrote:...where's the confusion?

The "Instead" at the beginning of the second sentence gets some folks to thinking that to be done in its stead, it must be a replacement.

/shrug

kirsanth wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:...where's the confusion?

The "Instead" at the beginning of the second sentence gets some folks to thinking that to be done in its stead, it must be a replacement.

/shrug

And there's no logical basis for that assumption.

And I'm not aiming these comments at you, I know you understand how it works, I'm aiming them at anyone who's confused by Vulkan's rule. Just FYI.

Gwar! wrote:

SmackCakes wrote:I do not see why people think the IC needs to have the Red Thirst rule for it to effect him. Most units don't have Liturgies of Blood but if they are in the same squad as someone who does then they are subject to its effects.

Because the rule says that it affects them.

It does not explicitly say that it effects other ICs who join the squad, it just says 'the whole squad' yet I'm certain that liturgies of blood does effect ICs.

Gwar! wrote:

SmackCakes wrote:The Red Thirst rule explicitly states it effects the 'entire squad'.

Which the IC is not part of.

YOU keep saying that! The RULES however do not. I would like if that was the case, but the rules say "An Intendant character is part of a unit" (page 48). The Rules say unit and squad are interchangeable terms (page 3). TRT says "the entire squad is treated as having the FC and fearless special rule". Here it does use the words 'treated as' because we are not talking about FC, we are talking about TRT.

The rules for transferring special rules say that rules do apply to ICs if the rule specifies.TRT is no less specific than liturgies of blood, it says the 'entire squad'.

The only grounds I can see for objection would be that TFT is not specific enough. This however would leave a question mark over liturgies of blood.

I do not see how arguing that "IC are not part of the unit" is grounds for objection. The RAW seem very clear that when ICs join units they are "part of a unit", it uses those exact words.

SmackCakes:

I really don't like quoting myself, but when you ignore the things that I say, it becomes necessary. Please pay attention. Earlier in this thread, I said this:

SaintHazard wrote:SmackCakes:

What's the unit type of a Necron Destroyer?

Necron Destroyers are treated like jetbikes for the purposes of movement. They are not Jetbikes.

Likewise, an Independent Character is treated as part of the squad for the purposes of maintaining coherency, shooting, assaulting, and falling back. It is not part of the squad.

You're confusing "treated as" or "counts as for the purpose of" with "is."

Two radically different things in the BRB.

The rules do NOT say the IC is part of the squad. They say the IC COUNTS AS part of the squad for the purposes of maintaining coherency, shooting, assaulting, and falling back.

For the purposes of special rules that affect the squad, and the squad only, the IC is NOT part of the squad - because the rules that specify what the IC is counted as part of the squad for do NOT include special rules, with the exception of the two (three?) universal special rules that affect both the squad and the attached IC.

You can't just ignore rules, or apply rules to situations where they normally do not apply, when it becomes convenient for you to do so.

I am sorry but yet again if you go back and read how USR's for IC and unit work it is only the ones marked with an * that are lost if either of the IC or unit does not have it.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:I am sorry but yet again if you go back and read how USR's for IC and unit work it is only the ones marked with an * that are lost if either of the IC or unit does not have it.

Irrelevant anyway, because Red Thirst is not a USR. It's a Special Rule, but it's far from Universal.

@smack cakes

I'm stil waiting for you to refute my example. Also, notice how there are no rules saying that "both units get each others special abilities when an ic joins"? That's because thete aren't any. Show me where in the BRB it does, and ill concede defeat in this thread. On your logic, when my Marshal joins a terminator squad, every terminator confers leadership 10 to my army. Why? Because they inherited the rule from my Marshal. This is identical to the ridiculous argument you have presented.

SaintHazard wrote:

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:I am sorry but yet again if you go back and read how USR's for IC and unit work it is only the ones marked with an * that are lost if either of the IC or unit does not have it.

Irrelevant anyway, because Red Thirst is not a USR. It's a Special Rule, but it's far from Universal.

Yes but in that section it specifcally states specail rules not, USRs.

Addtionally your question about BA libs joining a unit and does the unit gain his abilities to use his powers does not equate to this probelm. Being as it states you need to be a pysker (type of unit/charcater) to use them.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:I am sorry but yet again if you go back and read how USR's for IC and unit work it is only the ones marked with an * that are lost if either of the IC or unit does not have it.

Irrelevant anyway, because Red Thirst is not a USR. It's a Special Rule, but it's far from Universal.

Yes but in that section it specifcally states specail rules not, USRs.

Addtionally your question about BA libs joining a unit and does the unit gain his abilities to use his powers does not equate to this probelm. Being as it states you need to be a pysker (type of unit/charcater) to use them.

Under the heading of "Universal Special Rules," yes.

Assuming that any rule can be transferred to an IC's squad is like saying, "Since my Chaplain has a 4+ invulnerable save from his Rosarius, and he's attached to these Assault Marines, all of the Assault Marines also get 4+ invulnerable saves."

Which is ridiculous.

SaintHazard wrote:

Assuming that any rule can be transferred to an IC's squad is like saying, "Since my Chaplain has a 4+ invulnerable save from his Rosarius, and he's attached to these Assault Marines, all of the Assault Marines also get 4+ invulnerable saves."

Which is ridiculous.

Which I've been saying for ages!!!!

SaintHazard wrote:SmackCakes:

I really don't like quoting myself, but when you ignore the things that I say, it becomes necessary. Please pay attention. Earlier in this thread...

I ignored you because I don't have the rules for necron destroyers and they are completely irrelevant, and you saying 'likewise' is just your opinion which is equally irrelevant.

The rules do NOT say the IC is part of the squad. They say the IC COUNTS AS part of the squad for the purposes of maintaining coherency, shooting, assaulting, and falling back.

I quoted the rules word for word. Please give the page number where you are getting this from so I can read it myself.

You can't just ignore rules, or apply rules to situations where they normally do not apply, when it becomes convenient for you to do so.

I agree 100%, but how dare you insinuate that I was ever doing anything like that. I am simply here discussing the rules as written and trying to come up with a clear answer based on what the rules say.

You are the one who has already made up your mind what you want the rules to say, and are now trying to twist them to fit your ideas, not me. I personally think the rule needs further clarification for GW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

liam0404 wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:

Assuming that any rule can be transferred to an IC's squad is like saying, "Since my Chaplain has a 4+ invulnerable save from his Rosarius, and he's attached to these Assault Marines, all of the Assault Marines also get 4+ invulnerable saves."

Which is ridiculous.

Which I've been saying for ages!!!!

It's nothing like what we are talking about. The rules for Rosarius do not say 'the entire squad is effected'. The rules for TRT do say that.

And yet you still haven't answered his or my point about units sharing special rules. Care to voice your opinion about that?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Does the red thirst say it affects IC's? No? If they could suffer from it, it'd be in their entry.