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And it is downright silly that little guys get stepped on by big guys, but that huge guys don't step on big guys (similar logic to: why is a man afraid of a skeleton, but a giant isn't afraid of a bone giant?). But I digress:

"Slann or no Slann". This is in the Tactics section, so I'll answer tactically.

Slann. Slann always. I really doubt you need 4 disciplines, though. Rumination is a must. Focus of Mystery...maybe. With four spells and choosing any one you want on doubles, I wouldn't mind missing out on Earthblood, (Thorny Spell of Thorns), or even Dwellers. Because I assume you're going for Life. Personally, I think that Shadow would work similarly, but the Lore Attribute would be worthless. Anyway, I could maybe see a ghost-Slann. That's...really all you need, aside from the Cupped Hand. And even this is overkill, honestly.

Your main concern seems to be those big scary things. Monsters. Killy characters. A Scar-Vet with a great Weapon is really efficient, and with Life buffs (Regen or T7/9), he's a monster.
Here's something I've noticed in 8th: it's all about efficiency. No one's invincible anymore, with Step-up and always wounding on 6's. So people don't dump a mess of points into their two characters anymore. It's all about how many attacks at what strength you get for how many points.
There are some exceptions to this (Tzeentch Chaos Lord with a 3+ Ward) that can still play at Herohammer or Point Denial, but the Old Blood isn't one of them.

One Scar-Vet, with naught but a great weapon, in each block of Saurus should take care of your problems.

One more thing: strictly speaking, the Blade of Realties is not a good buy. Too expensive. Save or die. Most guys have Ld8-9. Within range of the BSB, the chances are minimal. Higher S or more attacks would be cheaper and better.

Warpsolution wrote:And it is downright silly that little guys get stepped on by big guys, but that huge guys don't step on big guys (similar logic to: why is a man afraid of a skeleton, but a giant isn't afraid of a bone giant?). But I digress:

"Slann or no Slann". This is in the Tactics section, so I'll answer tactically.

Slann. Slann always. I really doubt you need 4 disciplines, though. Rumination is a must. Focus of Mystery...maybe. With four spells and choosing any one you want on doubles, I wouldn't mind missing out on Earthblood, (Thorny Spell of Thorns), or even Dwellers. Because I assume you're going for Life. Personally, I think that Shadow would work similarly, but the Lore Attribute would be worthless. Anyway, I could maybe see a ghost-Slann. That's...really all you need, aside from the Cupped Hand. And even this is overkill, honestly.

Your main concern seems to be those big scary things. Monsters. Killy characters. A Scar-Vet with a great Weapon is really efficient, and with Life buffs (Regen or T7/9), he's a monster.
Here's something I've noticed in 8th: it's all about efficiency. No one's invincible anymore, with Step-up and always wounding on 6's. So people don't dump a mess of points into their two characters anymore. It's all about how many attacks at what strength you get for how many points.
There are some exceptions to this (Tzeentch Chaos Lord with a 3+ Ward) that can still play at Herohammer or Point Denial, but the Old Blood isn't one of them.

One Scar-Vet, with naught but a great weapon, in each block of Saurus should take care of your problems.

One more thing: strictly speaking, the Blade of Realties is not a good buy. Too expensive. Save or die. Most guys have Ld8-9. Within range of the BSB, the chances are minimal. Higher S or more attacks would be cheaper and better.

Thanks for the input.

Blade of Realities can be nice. The last game I used it, my old blood I squeezed in was on foot in a saurus unit and had the blade of realities. Yes, the blade is 75 points, so it only leaves you with 25 more points of items to give, but I actually just gave him that. I instantly killed 2 treekin (they have two wounds) hitting the unit with all 5 attacks. When you have people rolling 5 leadership tests, they will probably fail one. Since each model had two wounds, instant death meant that I got +2 to my combat resolve score. The great thing is, you have to take the test before I even roll to wound. Though I can see where better combination of items may come into play.

As for battle standard, I thought they only count towards combat resolution. Unless you mean the Army Standard which allows you to reroll failed leadership tests. However, I don't think that applies in this case, because does the army standard only allow for psychology and break tests?

I still have to go through and read all of 8th edition

So, what other combinations have you used of magic items and disciplines you found useful with the Slaan and other Lord/Heroes? Also, what lores of magic are great to take besides life? That toughness 8/9 is pretty nice. Dwellers below is pretty good against elves and things with str 3. Denying your enemy wizards all 6s is great too. There were a few failed spells last game because of that. Cupped hands of the old ones is great because if they dispell your 2+ save and augment spell for Life, you got the item to fall back on, and I did miscast last game and handed off the miscast and gave the wizard a str 8 hit. If I had wanted to be a jerk I could have used my ability to reroll on the miscast table and get a worse result and then hand it off, since I had that ability and the FAQ states you roll the results first, then hand them off with the cupped hands of course you must roll a 2+.

So, really it is a good tactic to get an ultimate power cast, use the ability to reroll results on the miscast table, purposely get the nastiest one you can, then roll a 2+ to hand it off.....

Though I could not bring myself to do that to my buddy last game since it was friendly. Otherwise, I would have rerolled the results, but he only suffered one STR 8 hit from the miscast table which really isn't all that bad of a result considering others.

I run a Slann with:

Rumination
Focus (Light)
Becalming

These three disciplines give him amazing offensive spellcasting, as well as the ability to shut down my enemies uber mage.

I also Take:

Cupped Hands
Battle Standard
Standard of Discipline

Hands protects him from miscasts, and is a nice Mage-Hunter, while the standard means everyone within 12" is Ld10 with a re-roll.

You know, if you do go shadow, can't you swap places with skink priest and saurus heroes, since they are all infantry?
If you aren't using temple guard, it might be a pretty good ploy. Ghost slann with shadow; jump around.

Oh, Tree Kin have 3 wounds, so with 5 hits, you're doing kicking a lot of butt. I think you'd be hard pressed to find a better weapon in the game. Ignoring armor, regen and rolls to wound is pretty hot; and when you don't get the Golden BB, you still are hitting with S5 no armor save attacks.


-Matt

First: I'll suggest that we refrain from quoting whole blocks of text to make this a little easier to read. Maybe it's my fault for saying too much, though.

To address your comments: there are "standards" and there is the "army battle standard", shortened to "battle standard". And 8th lets you re-roll all Leadership tests.
Treekin are Ld8. The odds of one failing it's test is a little less than 50%. With a BSB nearby, that drops to almost 20%. So, on average, you'll kill one treekin if you hit with all five attacks, not including rolling to wound. Compare that to, say, the Ogre Blade, which will kill about one treekin/phase (2/3 of 5 attacks, 2+ to wound), for 35pts less, I believe.
Most lists have "The Weapon" in there somewhere. Most of them are pretty crazy. But most of them are simply not worth their points, like this one.

I've heard good things about Light magic.
@Matt: I suppose you could. Unless the Slann counts as something else? I just figured he'd be in with some Guard, but it would be pretty funny to watch him bop around like that.

@Carnifex: doesn't the Standard of Discipline somehow negate the Inspiring Presence rule? Or does it simply say that the unit doesn't get it, so since the Slann is in the unit anyway, its all gravy?

Warpsolution wrote:@Carnifex: doesn't the Standard of Discipline somehow negate the Inspiring Presence rule? Or does it simply say that the unit doesn't get it, so since the Slann is in the unit anyway, its all gravy?

Read BRB FAQ.

Well I had taken the blade of realities in that battle because I was able to squeeze one old blood in my army list with one item and that was it and have my Slaan. My plan was to use him on the same side as the treeman and slay the treeman . Instead he got into combat with the Treekin instead and I instantly killed two of them first round of combat. The Army Standard was across the map by the General and the Mage and the Dryads on the other flank of the table.

However, I got instantly killed by a war dancer doing the instant kill dance. I had buffed the toughness of the unit so the old blood had T9. The War Dancer had to roll 6's to wound against T9, and he had an item that allowed him to reroll failed to wound rolls. So he ended up rolling a 6 on his death blow roll and instantly killed my old blood. Ouch, that hurt! However, that was my whole plan the whole time was to use the old blood + the blade of realities to take out a treeman or some other baddie on the other side.

That game had epic dice rolls though. I failed my Cupped Hands saving throw and had to roll on the miscast table and take it myself. I instant killed a few models with blade of realities, the war dancer got the death blow on my old blood, I failed my cupped hands roll, and we were laughing the whole time how bad our dice rolls were.

The bigger more baddie units usually have really good armor or a ward save. The blade of realities ignores all of that, including regeneration. You straight up die. The whole reason I take an old blood (or a hero saurus) with the blade of realities is to attempt to instantly kill the other player's tough units.

I think I am playing Chaos next, and I am almost willing to be my opponent goes death magic and tires to use that initiative test or die spell on my lizards, which would be really really really bad. So, I think I am going to build my Slaan to deny all 6s the other wizard rolls, and then go all out and get ultimate power on a spell, roll the worst result I can on the miscast table and then hand it off to the Chaos wizard and hope he dies and takes out a good chunk of the unit with it.

Crom wrote:The last two games I fought against Chaos in one and Wood Elves in the other. I barely won both games and it was because I had lots of great rank and file troops would took out almost all the basic troops of both armies I fought against. However, the Daemon Prince on the Juggernaught, the treeman, the other tree dudes, the chaos heavy knights and champion/heroes.

I know this isn't the point of the thread but I found it quite funny. Especially when you compare the size of the Demon Prince and the Juggernaught models. Most likely it was a Exalted or a Chaos Lord on the Juggernaught and everyone understands that you can't always get the names right for every unit in every army. If it really was a Demon Prince on a Jugger than your opponent cheated big time. Not only is a DP not allowed a mount but the Jugger removes one of the DPs biggest weaknesses, his Armour.

If someone were to try that against me then I would respond with a BSB, Banner of Disipline, Ld10, Life Slaan mounted on an Ancient Stegadon. That should be enough to give most WoC players fits (myself included).

Stonewyrm wrote:

Crom wrote:The last two games I fought against Chaos in one and Wood Elves in the other. I barely won both games and it was because I had lots of great rank and file troops would took out almost all the basic troops of both armies I fought against. However, the Daemon Prince on the Juggernaught, the treeman, the other tree dudes, the chaos heavy knights and champion/heroes.

I know this isn't the point of the thread but I found it quite funny. Especially when you compare the size of the Demon Prince and the Juggernaught models. Most likely it was a Exalted or a Chaos Lord on the Juggernaught and everyone understands that you can't always get the names right for every unit in every army. If it really was a Demon Prince on a Jugger than your opponent cheated big time. Not only is a DP not allowed a mount but the Jugger removes one of the DPs biggest weaknesses, his Armour.

If someone were to try that against me then I would respond with a BSB, Banner of Disipline, Ld10, Life Slaan mounted on an Ancient Stegadon. That should be enough to give most WoC players fits (myself included).

I just started playing again after a 14 year break from war minis. I am quite sure I got the term wrong and I am quite sure my buddy didn't cheat. At least on purpose. It was a lord character on a mount, so probably a Chaos Lord.

Too bad that would've made for a great model...

Like a 6ft. body-builder riding a tricycle. I'd model him waving a tiny stetson above his head. Yee-haw!

His Chaos Lord on the Juggernaut has a 1+ save, some item that makes you reroll successful hits, and he was a 5+ to hit and every hit I scored I had to reroll. I think what I am going to do is ditch my skinks and go all saurus rank and file with spears against chaos and then use life magic to keep regenerating my block units. Last game I fielded zero skinks and I think it worked out beter.

After enough time he will fail enough dice rolls for his units to die by my scaly lizard hands.

Sounds tough. But that's Chaos for you.

With the lack of partial VP nowadays, you could always try to concentrate your points into one big ol' block of Temple Guard and maximum two blocks of Saurus. Your Earthblood and Flesh to Stone spells will have to go off less often (not generally a problem with the Slann, but nevertheless) to be useful, and, at the end of the game, a unit of 40 Saurus that has been reduced to 5 lizards is still worth as much as 40.

From what I've seen, the typical trend with Chaos is 15-18 Warriors. Marauders are always in big chunks, but that's because they'll die fast anyway. If you can claim just one or two units without giving anything substantial up (which should not be hard for the Slann), you should win.

Not exactly the most sporting. But the uberslann isn't either.

Warpsolution wrote:Sounds tough. But that's Chaos for you.

With the lack of partial VP nowadays, you could always try to concentrate your points into one big ol' block of Temple Guard and maximum two blocks of Saurus. Your Earthblood and Flesh to Stone spells will have to go off less often (not generally a problem with the Slann, but nevertheless) to be useful, and, at the end of the game, a unit of 40 Saurus that has been reduced to 5 lizards is still worth as much as 40.

From what I've seen, the typical trend with Chaos is 15-18 Warriors. Marauders are always in big chunks, but that's because they'll die fast anyway. If you can claim just one or two units without giving anything substantial up (which should not be hard for the Slann), you should win.

Not exactly the most sporting. But the uberslann isn't either.

The one good thing about the skinks is poisoned weapons. I did march up about 20 skinks in a block and a unit of skirmishing skinks and tossed about 20 to 25 javelins at the his juggernaut dude. I rolled a good 4 or 5 6's on my dice rolls. Which automatically wounded. Problem was, his armor was so good he saved on all of them.....

Your tactic is actually one I have been considering. With the new horde rules. Make a giant horde unit, and march them up the middle. Create like a tar pit trap of a unit. Sure, he can rush on in, but it is going to take him several turns to win if his characters actually survive. I should always have the rank bonus and with life magic I can restore wounds, and raise the dead to that unit. All the while my other units move around and take stuff out.

It does seem like every game I play my opponent makes one of my 20 unit block of sauruses completely useless. They do this by maneuvering their troops, and I already got so much in my deployment zone that I am forced to put a unit or two on the flanks. If it is a weak side and my opponent moves towards the other, then that unit stranded on the side of the table takes the whole game to move anywhere and sometimes never even sees combat once.

So, maybe if I did do a super huge unit and get all the bonuses for being a horde I can trap all his big stuff fighting that unit all game. If it doesn't bring the fight to him and smash every little unit out of my way.

In an effective army you will likely have 2-4 main battle blocks of considerable size, with the rest of your forces being support units for those blocks, some armies can brake this mould but lizardmen aren't one of those.
The most common LM builds would have a TG block with a slaan and two saurus blocks, thorw skinks and beasties in to support.

Agreed 100%

Goblins and Skaven can, technically, field tons and tones of rank-and-file, but there's a certain point where you get diminishing returns and your guys just get in each other's way. Forcing yourself to march forward and charge head-on is pretty lame. Your opponent can't really get at your flanks (at first), but those big blocks of terrible fighters need their flank-charges.

I actually played a game where we exchanged lists before hand, and I handed him a 2000pt list with nothing but Slaves and a naked Warlock Engineer; 6 units of ~80 and 4 or 5 of ~40. After I took in the look on his face, I handed him my real list.

...I wish I had 600+ painted Skaven...

I think that LM have the tools to take on Chaos (I play both) regardless if you take a Slann or not. On the other side WoC have the tools to deal with LM.

When two equal opponents face off often mismatches decide the battle. Dealing with WoC characters require the same tools as dealing with Chaos Warriors and Chaos Knights.
Anything that ignores and/or reduces Armour Saves is important although WoC can get some really good Ward Saves through Mark of Tzeentsch.

Okay, my suggestions:
Salamanders are good against Armoured targets (-3 AS), they are good flankers with a decent operational radius (+/- 20"). Unfourtunatly they only do 1 hit per model.
Saurus Characters can get S7 relatively easy. Even 1+ re-rollable AS is not that hot against S7. Just remember they will hit last against WoC, make sure they live to get their attacks.
Stegadons have high strength Impact hits. I don't even have to mention what Engines can do against Armoured Foes.

WoC characters always have to challange when possible, use this to your advantage. Makes sure you have plenty of champions to take the heat off your weaker chars when nessesary.
Protect important chars whenever possible, priests on engines can now get 4+ ward saves (common magic item) making up for one of their traditional weaknesses.

Oldbloods can be CC monsters, giving Chaos Lords a run for their money. Slanns can use magic to buffs/hexes creating mismatches, cast big spells that don't allow armour saves and/or take out 50% of a unit at once.
Slanns also cost twice as much leaving less points for engines, sallies, saurus blocks ect.

I wouldn't concentrate too much on WoC chars, they are too fast, too strong and too well defended to hunt. If they are in a unit then use your better movement (6" vs 4") to flank them with a mismatch if possible and then run them down. If they are on their own then use inderect attacks. Hit them with colateral damage when possible, catching them in the radius of Burning Alignment or dropping rocks. Use high strength spells or those that don't allow armour saves. If you can't kill them then don't bother. Use your speed to avoid them a good as possible and concentrate on the rest of the army. Even a lowly Lv2 Sorc can be a Tank, T4 2+ AS 3++ Ward or T4 1+ AS 4++ Ward. Even the weakest of WoC chars will eat skink heros for lunch.

I think the key is to get the right mismatches on his troops. His CC chars are a big pain in the *** but they can't win by themselves. They can't break steadfast and can't dispell your Slann. They need blocks of troops to support in order to really rack in points.
On the other side your opponent will try to get mismatches too. Watch out for Disk and Boobworm mounted Exalteds trying to hunt Sallies. Chars on Juggers don't need a sheild to get to 1+ AS. They will often have a halberd or a great weapon with a crapload of attacks.
They are never able to get LoSir though. If a Jugger is on the table then he can always be targeted by shooting, war machines (howdah weapons) and spells. Don't bother shooting at them though, only Bolt throwers and spells have a chance of getting a wound.

LM have an answer to most of what WoC throws at them. Just try to get the right tools in the right place. I think that LM vs. WoC is a good match up. Both sides should have chances of winning and it won't be a boring gunline/denial battle.

Stonewyrm

I think we are doing a rematch of our last game we all three played. It was an allied game of Wood Elves and Lizardmen versus Chaos. I am thinking about dumping all my hero points in skink priests and then mounting them on stegadons with engine of the gods. Which versus Chaos would do D6 str 5 hits, with NO armor save. If I add them as mounts for my lvl 1 skink guys it will come out of my hero points. I just wish Skink priests could choose a different lore over heavens. I think the Chaos guy will field some dragon ogres this time, which if I recall, love it when you hit them with lightning based attacks.

What points are youy playing that allow more than one EotG?

the points have not been set yet, 3,000 to 3,500. At 3,000 I have 750 hero points. I think I can get a skink shaman lvl 1 + stegadon mount for under 300 points. If I use all my hero points I can most likely fit in two. I haven't factored this in just yet.

An EotG comes in at 355 minimum.

HoverBoy wrote:An EotG comes in at 355 minimum.

Ok, well multiply that by 2 and I a still under my 750 pt hero limit.

Enjoy your 20 pts of gear per priest

Edit: Altho an engine with a lightslaan makes for a nice shield effect vs shoting. Boosted Pha's + PoW = 12" bubble of "your shooting sucks good sir".

HoverBoy wrote:Enjoy your 20 pts of gear per priest

Edit: Altho an engine with a lifeslaan makes for a nice shield effect vs shoting. Boosted Pha's + PoW = 12" bubble of "your shooting sucks good sir".

I am playing against Chaos, they don't really have a lot of shooting, and the STR 5 D6 hits with no armor save is pretty dang epic. He will field knights, warriors, marauders, and some bad dude champions, a lord on a juggernaut, and probably a mage of tzeench or something along those lines.

Stegadons have decent movement. I can hold up in the back, buff the friendly units and then by turn 2 or 3 I can move them in with the impact hits and the Engine of the Gods, and it trumps Chaos's armor, which is some of the best armor in the game.

Honestly, the d6 S4 no armour + magic might be worth keeping the Stegs out of combat.

If I was a chaos soldier and had a choice between trying to cut up a granite lizard man who regenerates and a squishy little newt who was also microwaving my friends...2+ Armour won't save you from Chaos for long.

If your opponent's content to charge your blocks, I say let him. Then buff 'em up and bring out the nukes. Always wanted to try 2 Engines + Kroak for that.

Warpsolution wrote:Honestly, the d6 S4 no armour + magic might be worth keeping the Stegs out of combat.

If I was a chaos soldier and had a choice between trying to cut up a granite lizard man who regenerates and a squishy little newt who was also microwaving my friends...2+ Armour won't save you from Chaos for long.

If your opponent's content to charge your blocks, I say let him. Then buff 'em up and bring out the nukes. Always wanted to try 2 Engines + Kroak for that.

Yeah I learned my lesson with that damn treeman, and with the damn Elven general too. Both games they have slaughtered a stegadon. However last game they only slaughtered the stegadon with the giant bow. Engine of the Gods does ST 4 hits against normal foes, but ST 5 hits against forest spirits, chaos creatures, and something else....no army book in front of me at the moment.

The no armor save is what is epic. I can totally mow down his heavy knights and his chaos warriors with the stegs. I may have to sacrifice a block or two of saurus units to keep them away from my stegs, but I mean the cost of a 20 model Saurus unit is pretty low, and the fact that even though those units have a high probability of being wiped, they will probably take a few out with them. Plus with ranks and cold blooded they most likely won't break for a turn or two, allowing my stegs to sneak up and use the microwave as you say, heh

I have yet to use any special characters at all in my LM army. Though I really want to check out that Skink who can use lore of beast, too bad he counts as lord points.

If your blocks of Saurus are big enough, though, Regrowth/Lifebloom will probably make it a stalemate, if not pull you ahead of the curve.

It's a good tactic, to be sure. A cunning general will ignore your stegadon and cream the lil' guy on top of him, negating that awesome golden calendar thing.

Oh, and it's Undead. Daemons, Forest Spirits, and Undead. Like those poor trees needed any more hate...