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Druid Warder




Cincinnati, OH

RuneGrey wrote:Personally I'm just waiting for that squad of Exemplar Errants to slam into my Arcane Shielded Stormwall and bounce off, realizing that their puny POW 9 weapon master attacks aren't even going to cripple a couple systems, let alone destroy it. Or when the Bane Thralls taste the Menoth Colossal's rockets and flamethrowers as they struggle to get into charge range, only to realize that their best efforts aren't going to be able to destroy it...

I don't see how things can't still kill it. Part of their design is that you are not required to use colossals to kill colossals. That said, some things will take ore time, and very few things can take them down on their own (right now the math seems to favor Mulg, Bronzeback Titans, fully tricked-out Warpwolfs dog-piling it, and such). Often combinations that require specific warlocks or pretty resource-intensive (Mulg takes, I believe, takes at least a light to get the damage buff rolling).

That said also, it should also be taken into account that enough application of Parasite, Dark Shroud and charging Weaponmasters will take them down. Bane Thralls and Errants aren't supposed to suddenly stop mattering against htese things. These things, isntead, will likely be able to weather more turns of it than they could before.

As a random note, I doubt they'll actually have much higher ARM than a standard warjack. I see them being ARM 18-20, just with a bamillion wounds that means you have to invest as much into killing it in one go as it probably cost.

RuneGrey wrote:Hell. Just having something with SO MUCH BEEF that 5 weapon master infantry won't explode it in one round makes me happy. The fact that the models look *amazing* so far is just an added bonus.

I think, assuming ARM 20 max, Asphyxious with five Thralls can at least hurt them pretty bad still. Again, protecting them shouldn't be something you don't have to worry about.

And stuff.
   
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Wrack Sufferer





The other side of the internet

Well the merc card showed 58 damage and mercs tend to be on the lighter side of armor and damage. TBH I'm a little scared that Khador may have the max 72 damage...

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

RAGE

Be sure to use logic! Avoid fallacies whenever possible.
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Regular Dakkanaut





Blaque wrote:I don't see how things can't still kill it. Part of their design is that you are not required to use colossals to kill colossals. That said, some things will take ore time, and very few things can take them down on their own (right now the math seems to favor Mulg, Bronzeback Titans, fully tricked-out Warpwolfs dog-piling it, and such). Often combinations that require specific warlocks or pretty resource-intensive (Mulg takes, I believe, takes at least a light to get the damage buff rolling).

That said also, it should also be taken into account that enough application of Parasite, Dark Shroud and charging Weaponmasters will take them down. Bane Thralls and Errants aren't supposed to suddenly stop mattering against htese things. These things, isntead, will likely be able to weather more turns of it than they could before.

As a random note, I doubt they'll actually have much higher ARM than a standard warjack. I see them being ARM 18-20, just with a bamillion wounds that means you have to invest as much into killing it in one go as it probably cost.
*snip*
And stuff.


Of course - I figure that these things will still work, but I'll confess that I'm always someone who wants to see more warjacks on the table - and something that infantry will bounce off of means that you will see more jacks in a rock paper scissors type effect. In the end the main defenses will probably be their huge number of boxes and whatever special defenses the colossals themselves have. The Storm Strider and AFG are examples of excellent defensive tech that might show up on these units, and I'll be fairly happy if we see something that makes them a bit harder to take down.

My problem is when that same 8 point unit with warjack support can wipe out a Colossal with the same ease that they do a current warjack, which does nothing to change the fairly troop heavy meta we're seeing right now in places. I'd rather be facing off against 2 or 3 jacks than yet another weapon master swarm, and I hope that they take the opportunity to push things in that direction with the Colossals. For your example, Parasite + Bane Thralls + Dene feat / scything touch is straight dice against ARM 18 on 4 dice, which means that you need to get 6-7 thralls on the base to get a very high chance of getting a 1 turn kill. Not a big deal against a 7-10 point jack or a 9 point battle engine, but against a huge base its much easier to load up that many models.

Keep in mind, 'can kill with stuff from Prime' does not mean 'can kill with troops' - the whole argument for 'its a game' still is in effect, but for something the size of these colossals I'd prefer to see a need for warjacks / warbeasts to take them down rather than a bunch of guys with swords and axes. But that's just personal preference - I was hoping for the same with battle engines, and while they did turn into fairly potent anti-infantry models overall, they didn't severely change the meta and were honestly a bit of a wash as general use models except for the Strider, especially with their commanding price tags.
   
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Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





Portland

Unfortunately, I'm looking at weapon master infantry being better against these things than heavy warjacks :/

For instance (picked only because they're considered heavy hitters):

A Stormclad (assuming 19 ARM, a poor DEF, and 3.5 per die) will, fully loaded, with a free charge (from some aid), get through 10.5+3(7)= 31.5 health

Bane Thralls (assuming the same, w/o focus and they don't need the charge to be free) will get through x(8), where X is the number of banes, meaning the damage starts getting in the Banes' favor when 4 make contact.

This means that a 10-pt heavy, assuming average circumstances and no buffs/debuffs, will do about half damage to one of these monsters (based on size, etc. about what I'd expect: 2 fully loaded melee heavies against one super dude seems like a fair fight-- a little on the easy to kill side, but you've got to make it so something other than other giants can take it down.

…While about the same number of points of scary skeletons wielding axes * can take one out completely

While weapon masters have always done a lot to high health pieces, having bigger-based and theoretically super-tough super killy robots exemplifies this problem tenfold**

In short, I agree, RuneGrey, WTF?

*you'd need fewer than all of them to do it, but some will die on the way over...

** I'm sorry, but did anyone else cringe at the poor english they mustered for their promotional video? I'm really tired of "professional" pieces where people seem like they were never taught the difference between "there" and "they're," and what commas and apostrophes do... And then there's this bizarre new deal where quotation marks emphasize things? (Okay, I'm done)



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Druid Warder




Cincinnati, OH

The issue is that, things that stop the Weaponmasters will sotp the warjacks. As shown above, a Stormclad already has issues doing the job unless it has a buff (Stryker2 and Nemo2 can crank it's damage up about 10 more boxes worth, but still not doing the job, really). If you make it too hard for infantry to ding it, it becomes impossible for others to ding it. And it can lead to arms-race issues of them fighting one-another being the sure fire way to kill them.

Right now an issue, to me, is that warjacks really have some flawed mechanics to them that werent' fully addressed in MkII (in part this is because their insistance of not doing them with Hordes I think). Warjacks are too ineffecient an investment of resources osmetimes.

That said, my guess is we'll see a lot of these colossals being destroyed by combinations of warjacks and infantry mroe than anything. Knights Exemplar can't probably scrap it, but them and a Reckoner or the Avatar helping-out probably do the trick, which is probably the actual goal of these.

And stuff.
   
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Blaque wrote:The issue is that, things that stop the Weaponmasters will sotp the warjacks. As shown above, a Stormclad already has issues doing the job unless it has a buff (Stryker2 and Nemo2 can crank it's damage up about 10 more boxes worth, but still not doing the job, really). If you make it too hard for infantry to ding it, it becomes impossible for others to ding it. And it can lead to arms-race issues of them fighting one-another being the sure fire way to kill them.

Right now an issue, to me, is that warjacks really have some flawed mechanics to them that werent' fully addressed in MkII (in part this is because their insistance of not doing them with Hordes I think). Warjacks are too ineffecient an investment of resources osmetimes.

That said, my guess is we'll see a lot of these colossals being destroyed by combinations of warjacks and infantry mroe than anything. Knights Exemplar can't probably scrap it, but them and a Reckoner or the Avatar helping-out probably do the trick, which is probably the actual goal of these.

And stuff.


Keep in mind what you're saying though: 'A' Stormclad.

That's half the points investment of the Colossal attacking it in one turn - I'd hope that it couldn't do the job. A 10 point jack wrecking a 20 point super robot in one turn, even with a full focus load? The difference is that the cheaper bane thrall unit will probably get the job done with an equal amount of warcaster focus support, barring some sort of defensive ability that helps to protect the Colossal from them. 2 Stormclads should have a fair shot at doing it, though.

My hope is they have something like reverse decapitate - damage that small based models do over armor is halved. It allows troops to ding them, as you said, without allowing a wrecking ball unit to inflict fatal damage all by itself. You don't need to make them immune to troops to make them a good counter and to make it so that people want more warjacks to get the job done. You don't need to make dramatic changes, but I think that some adjustment of the power of infantry against everything is warranted at this point.

Warjack power and return for point of focus only begins to become appealing when the very high power of their weapons becomes a factor. Right now armor and defense do not have enough potency to actually encourage the use of warjacks because everything dies to weapon master infantry on the charge without too much trouble. The only time we're going to see warjacks actually become really useful is if you can add focus the way Hordes removes fury, or if they actually jump armor values to the ~22-23 range, where even POW 12 Weapon Masters will only be doing 1 or 2 points of damage on average, but a boosting jack can still knock out a column per attack with their high POW weapons.

Simply put, I don't think its efficiency as much as the huge bias towards offensive power rather than defensive power. It may also be that it's something of a moot point if the ranged capabilities of the Colossals is very impressive - you don't get charges off on something in the back line without going through the rest of the army. But I still hope that we see an end to the dominance of weapon masters with the Colossals released - it's my fond hope for this next release.
   
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Portland

I'd argue that the Stormclad:Colossal ratio is about right. 2 pieces that are half as expensive should be able to take one down, and it should be able to do a pretty good job taking them down, too.

In my opinion, the problem isn't warjacks, but the fact that half that cost in weapon masters (Knights Exemplar or Bane Thralls, for instance) can get the job done.

It would be a huge shift in the game, but I'd want to experiment with what it would be like if weapon master was +D3 or +2 damage (or, alternatively, having some sort of penalty against damaging jacks and beasts), rather than the full +D6 (I'm sorry, but I have a problem with a Bane Thrall, regardless of how cool it is, averaging as much damage as a medium-weight Heavy and more damage than most Lights in the game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/05 20:09:54




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There's only a "problem" if you take two groups of models of equal point values, and one group can't take out the other group when used as intended (assuming one group wasn't designed to be weak against the other group). That's why there's a point system, to determine roughly equal groupings of models.

So if if two units of Bane Thralls vs. one Colossal comes down to whoever gets into position and attacks first, that's great. Having the equivalent of thresher and super-trample should help ensure that the Colossal gives the Bane Thralls an even fight.
   
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Does anyone know what the menoth one is called (it may have been mentioned already) or what Any of its weapons are?

thornfall alliance: 30pts bringing home the bacon
menoth: 134pts "burn heretics, BURN!" 
   
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Tormentor






St. Louis

Adjudicator. It's apparently got a couple of flame throwers, two open fists, and shoulder mounted rocket batteries.
   
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Stormblade




Kensington, MD

It's called the Judicator, and it appears to have two large rocket batteries and two heavy flamethrowers.

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Paladin of the Wall






Cool thanks (want one soo much)
Can't wait to blast my friends weak army away with it
Has the cost been mentioned in pounds?

thornfall alliance: 30pts bringing home the bacon
menoth: 134pts "burn heretics, BURN!" 
   
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Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





Portland

They're more complex than the Battle Engines, and will be worth more points than them, so, considering those are $85 (53£), I'd probably guess closer to 60-70£

To clarify, though, AFAIK, no prices have been announced



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The Magistrate





Prattville, AL

Laughing Man wrote:Adjudicator. It's apparently got a couple of flame throwers, two open fists, and shoulder mounted rocket batteries.


It's Judicator, not Adjudicator.

Doug Seacat wrote:In the hopes of putting a quick end to the use of the wrong word before it becomes too habitual, I wanted to note that the Protectorate colossal is a "Judicator" not an "Adjudicator."

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/20 03:12:43


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The Stormclad example didn't get to the hilarious part yet.

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St.Joseph MO

Im excited for these.

They wont be required.. i dont get all the fuss.

A 50pt army without a collossus wil be just as good as a 50pt army with one...


I have a feeling their defense will be low low, and their armor will be 18-20.

Ill still send in Avatar and a Reckoner and wreck one in a turn. Not to worried.


But from that picture of the Menoth one. I am setting aside the $$ for it right when it comes out, if it looks anything close to that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/20 17:17:35


-Warmahordes-
Mercenaries


Menoth 
   
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The Magistrate





Prattville, AL

Spyder68 wrote:A 50pt army without a collossus wil be just as good as a 50pt army with one...


I'm gonna be conservative and say that an army without a colossus may actually be better due to a larger variety of options to do with the points. But, of course, we'll see when they actually get released and hit the field.

That said, can't wait to field the Merc one with Magnus, but I'll need to buy some Steelheads as my Merc options that aren't available only to Magnus Themes(ie. things not Idrians or "loyalist" Cygnarans) is pretty low.

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Spyder68 wrote:Im excited for these.

They wont be required.. i dont get all the fuss.

A 50pt army without a collossus wil be just as good as a 50pt army with one...


I have a feeling their defense will be low low, and their armor will be 18-20.

Ill still send in Avatar and a Reckoner and wreck one in a turn. Not to worried.


But from that picture of the Menoth one. I am setting aside the $$ for it right when it comes out, if it looks anything close to that.


I think they will pretty much be sticking to faction stat lines. Cryx will still be a glass cannon, Khador will be neigh invulnerable, but slow as all hell.

I just can't wait for what Horde will get.... I want mah dragon.

 
   
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St.Joseph MO

I would Love a Dragon for Legion..

But i dont see them ever getting one :(

Its going to be some large Carnivean based Creature with my luck.

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Menoth 
   
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I'd still love that. Huge dragonspawn? Yes please.

As long as it's not one of the Cthulu brothers, I hate those things.

 
   
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Legion Colossus would probably require multiple warlock ex-sanguinations. I approve.

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Murder bethayne and her pet for it. Their ugly anyway, and I don't like her.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/20 21:48:37


 
   
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crusher of dreams





east tennessee

malfred wrote:Legion Colossus would probably require multiple warlock ex-sanguinations. I approve.

i picture them bleeding out that one male lock, then sticking his althame in a new body, rinse repeat as long as they got bodies

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Soladrin wrote:Murder bethayne and her pet for it. Their ugly anyway, and I don't like her.


I <3 Bethayne and Belphegor

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Not even gonna buy them

 
   
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malfred wrote:Legion Colossus would probably require multiple warlock ex-sanguinations. I approve.


Well, they do have 'Greater' Spawning Buckets that they only need the warlock to bleed a bit into, and then it converts all the other material into the beast. This one will probably be the single biggest spawning bucket ever.

Which gives the image of the legion colossal beast rising up out of a volcano of blood...
   
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Pensacola, FL

Couldn't this be what Vayl was working on with her new spawning vessels?


 
   
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Kensington, MD

All I know is that I neeeed the Stormwall and really want the Judicator. And heaven knows what other goodies will be in the book.

Well, I'll have a lot of eBay sales to make to cover those costs. I'm betting on +/-15 from the $100 mark each. Which isn't really all that bad when you compare it to some of the FW Super Heavies that look great but nobody wants to play against.

"As a rule of thumb, the designers do not hide "easter eggs" in the rules. If clever reading is required to unlock some sort of hidden option, then it is most likely just a result of wishful thinking." Pete Haines
For the love of the Emperor people, it's a TURRET. There is no such thing as a turrent!  
   
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Through the looking glass

I REALLY hope they don't make the WoldWrath for Orboros. I play Orboros for the predatory animal theme that it has going on, not because I want to play around with stone golems (which really aren't they different to me than 'jacks).

I'd like to see a massive burrowing serpent, or hell a giant wolf ala princess mononoke. ANYTHING besides another golem.

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