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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Warpsolution wrote:
Just, for once, read what I've got right up there, and don't assume I'm saying anything more than that.

I still think that Kroxigor ought to be S5 base. S7 might come in handy or it might be overkill, but Krox being the same strength as Saurus is silly.

I'm not uncooled jets. I read what you wrote. Because someone doesn't agree with you don't assume they are frothing.

There is a really small limit to the differences in a D6 game. Ogres are like 10 feet tall and probably 5x heavier than a human. They are closer to elephants than humans in real world physics. But they are only 1/3rd stronger in the game. They wouldn't even be able to move themselves if that was truly the case. Within a D6 in the game world of WHFB is a huge variance. They don't have 4 str. No one cares what they are like without their GW because they are never without them. If it makes you feel better, give them 6 str and ASL and say they take all Str char tests at -2. They're as strong as Giants or Steggadons. No non-character MI (that I know of) in the game is stronger.

   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





I don't think you were absolutely furious; I would just like people to be a little more tentative with their statements. Disagreeing is fine and all, but tempering a counter-argument with manners is essential.
My point is that someone can say "Kroxigor should be better" without saying "they should be as good as Ogre Bulls".
Just "they should be better". Now, do you disagree with that statement? 'Cause that's a conversation that can be had.

I also get the small difference between a 3 and a 4 in a system based around D6's. I'm guessing that's one of the reasons Ogres have 3 attacks (I mean, they're not faster or more martially proficient than the average human soldier, just bigger), since that would make a bigger impact than higher S. I just don't think S5(7) Kroxigor would make much of an impact, versus S4(6).
Also, aren't Minotaurs S5, and can't they get great weapons? Not a common choice, since they're usually better off left cheap or with extra attacks, but I believe it's available.

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Yah minos can be S7 for 63 pts. And this goes back to what each army is good at. You want to trade Gors for Saurus? Or beastcasters for Slann? Beastmen have mino characters, it's one of their main units. Kroxigor don't have that same niche. They have 3 versions of Saurus TG/Riders(sorta) and a bunch of Skink types and even multiple Steggadons.

+1S obviously makes a difference on a 3 attack (4 with stomp) creature. Not just for fighting heroes and monsters but negating armor. They become stronger than Steggadons, and equal to Carnisaurs which doesn't even make fluff sense. They already got better LD and armor than Ironguts (with CB), they're just pricey. I could see them coming down a few points, but it wouldn't be a lot at all.

   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





Wait, they have better Ld than Ironguts? Hm. I'd have figured they were one of those lower-Ld units.

I'm not saying that Minotaurs set the standard for MI, they were just some S7 MI I could recall.
And I don't think the idea of increasing one unit's S by 1 point is going back to each army having its niche. I mean, I'm sure it does by some small margin, but it's not like S5 Kroxigor would signal a New Age of Warhammer.

And of course S5 makes them better than S4. That's beyond obvious. My point is that it'd be a diminishing return. T4/Armour 4+ and lower will remain unchanged. The biggest change would be probably going from Wounding T5 on 3's to 2's. You do raise an important point with the +1S Stomp, however.
Also, how does a 12' crocodile monster with a fifty-pound axe equalling the Strength of a T-Rex's jaws defy sense? Doesn't seem like that big of an stretch to me.

But, once more, I say: they don't need +1S, or +3A, or Fly, or to be lvl2 Shadow Wizards. They're decent the way they are. They just need to cost a little less.
How much do Ironguts cost, anyway?

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





They have better LD because of Cold Blood.

If the Str doesn't matter much, make them S3.

As for what fluff matters logically, you have already forgotten from a whole post ago the limitations of a D6 system. More importantly, you've forgotten the difference between balancing a ~250pt(?) monster mount and a 55pt Special MI. Again, it's completely ridiculous that Ogres are only Str 4 and have the same T as Dwarfs or Orcs, which if they fell unconscious on, would crush either of those races. If you see every picture/painting of Greater Daemons, they are like 40 fricken' feet tall and they only have 6 str.

6 Stats are generic dragon/monster stats. Very few things go over it. And nearly everything that does is multi-hundred points. At 7S you start making Steggadons superfluous.

   
Made in us
Stubborn Temple Guard






Would Krox be more viable at their points with base S5, but with hand weapons and shields?

Gives the fluff of being the lifters of Lizardman society, and makes them a reasonably hard hitting, tough unit.

Still not as good as others of the size since they don't get command options, but the flip side is they have a bit better armor than most MI. And they would still be more expensive than the other options of Bulls or Minotaurs.

27th Member of D.O.O.M.F.A.R.T.
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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





They already got 4+ scaly skin with 4T. They are damn tough for MI. As the fluff stands, I don't see them using shields. I don't even see them really using GW. They're just big biological tow trucks.

I think a point reduction is in order. But if they add a crapload more units, it depends...

   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





Even if they're Ld is "only" higher than Ironguts because of Cold Blooded, that's still a big point in their favor.

Duke, my point is that going from S6 to S7 will result in a less drastic change of performance than going from S4 to S5, or from maybe even from 5 to 6.
I'm not saying Strength doesn't matter, just that it matters less. If a monster's S8, how many people would give it a great weapon over an extra hand weapon? Not many, because the difference between S8 and 10 is non-existent except in the most superbly armoured foes and, well, Sphinxes, I guess.

I have also not forgotten about the limit of variables with a D6. I'd appreciate that tone be changed to something a little more constructive, as I've said time and again. You've got a strong grasp on game balance and design, but I'm not a complete idiot, nor a justified target for your scorn.

Comparing them to Carnosaurs just isn't doing it for me. 3 ASL attacks and a Stomp does not compare to 4 D3 Wounds attacks and a Thunderstomp on a fast Terror-causing monster. Nor does it compare to a Stubborn monster with impact hits and a war machine on his back. So they'd have as much/less Strength than this or that. They bring more to the table than that, don't they?

I mean, it's not a big deal. Really really not a big deal. But I just can't see the point where this concept would tear reality asunder. Minotaurs get great weapons, but you say that's because they're part of Beastmen. What does that option--which I've never seen used--have to do with what Beastment are supposed to be good at, which is apparently not the same as what Lizardmen are good at.

For the record, I think the Shaggoth is the worst-scaled monster to date. He's got tiny Ungors in his hair, for crying out loud.
And on that topic, it's kinda' funny that great weapons always grant you +2S. I mean, a bigger great weapon should result in more damage, logistically. But that steps into a realm inwhich Warhammer was not meant to go

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





No one in 8th has 7S. Not the biggest 300pt Rare monsters. Not in any unit of any book with units that are all about high Str. There's very few things with >6 stats at all. I believe this was a conscious effort to make high T be an actual defense instead of a joke. Lizardmen have no difficulty whatsoever killing high T stuff now.

The 8th edition peers for Kroxigor are Ushabiti and Trolls and Vargheifs and Gorgers and Crypt Horrors. They're all in the same ballpark with different pros and cons. Krox are probably the closest match to Ushab. High armor, high LD, none of the undead stuff.

If they were like 3+ scaly skin, they'd probably be done as is. Except clean up or get rid of the kin rules which are just too muddy.

   
Made in us
Killer Klaivex




Oceanside, CA

The nice part of S5 is that it would make a unit of krox better (stomp) while not really making the mixed units better.
That is the type of buff I'm looking for.

-Matt

 thedarkavenger wrote:

So. I got a game with this list in. First game in at least 3-4 months.
 
   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran




Warpsolution wrote:
A-buh? Really?

...then why do Chaos Knights cause Fear? They're the same models, except mounted on extra-mean horses. I doubt the horses are the ones with Fear.

Well, at any rate, Saurus should cause Fear. They're dinosaur people.


Knights cause fear because they are chaos knights, their rules say so, don't ask why.

Regular warriors do not.
   
Made in us
Calculating Commissar




pontiac, michigan; usa

If i remember chaos knights cause fear due to dread reputation. That's actually why they cause fear. Nothing more causes it than that.

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Made in us
Stubborn Temple Guard






What do we think the chances are that the Lizardmen get their own spell lore? Almost every other army gets their own lore, why not Lizards?

27th Member of D.O.O.M.F.A.R.T.
Resident Battletech Guru. 
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





@BronzeJon: I'll ask all the questions I want. And some of them are still going to pertain to the difference between Chaos Warriors and Knights.
Back in the day of Chosen Knights, I could understand (I mean, do Chosen cause Fear), but right now, it seems like the Knights cause Fear because opposing players feared them back in 7th, when two or three units of 5 of those guys could carry nearly every battle on their shoulders.

@Mattlov: It's an interesting thought, but I don't think they need a new Lore. That won't stop GW from making one, if they've a mind to, of course, but Lizard-magic is not a thing I'd like to improve upon.

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I'm a bit surprised they stayed with custom lores as that runs into the same issues as custom magic items when it's untied to the BRB. Usually they give custom lores when they want to weaken the magic of a race and make it more tailored to them specifically. I don't think there's any 8th army with their own lore that also has access to the full BRB set of lores. So I can't see them giving a Liz lore and taking away BRB lores. They're the grandfroggies of magic. Only HE have both sets and they are an old book and I'm not sure any redesign will keep that dynamic.

They covered most of the fluff with the Slann abilities and a few others like Mazdamundi and Kroak's custom spells.

   
Made in us
Stubborn Temple Guard






Perhaps it wouldn't be for the Slann. Maybe the Skink priests get a specialized Lore that mixes Beast (Sotek worship) and Heavens. If they continue to limit the access Skinks have to spells, it might as well be interesting, right?

27th Member of D.O.O.M.F.A.R.T.
Resident Battletech Guru. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





That would mean skinks have a lore that Slann don't. No matter how you slice it, that seems illogical.

   
Made in us
Stubborn Temple Guard






DukeRustfield wrote:
That would mean skinks have a lore that Slann don't. No matter how you slice it, that seems illogical.


True. IT could be fluffed as a "less pure" magical lore to represent what has been lost with the Old Ones, and the Slann don't use it.

27th Member of D.O.O.M.F.A.R.T.
Resident Battletech Guru. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Sure. But it's not like Skinks are orc shamans. They're the brains of the lizardman culture, probably directing 99.99999999999% of the daily activities. I think they're described as craftsmen, artisans and administrators.

   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





I think I'd like to see Skinks with some other options. Maybe just Beasts, Heavens, and Light or something.

 
   
 
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