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Made in gb







Lincolnshire, UK

Void__Dragon wrote:Sure are a lot of Imperial players here.

"Most of the time, Eldar visions are false" lol, what a crock of gak.

Eldrad was right, Horus laid the Emperor low, come at me bro.


I'm coming at you...

... For a bro-fist! Well said.

Durza wrote:
PredaKhaine wrote:
Chaos is quite good at hiding from everyone when it wants to. The corrupted sword of the laer didn't feature in anyone's visions.


That's actually an interesting point. Maybe the Eldar just didn't see the sword at all because Slaanesh knows how to nullify their powers?


I personally can't recall any times when Chaos has manipulated the Eldar?

Enlist as a virtual Ultramarine! Click here for my Chaos Gate (PC) thread.

"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of."
- Roboute Guilliman

"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now."
- Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
 
   
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Tzeentch Doomlord Pilot




Noctis Labyrinthus

 Just Dave wrote:
I'm coming at you...

... For a bro-fist! Well said.
*brofist*

I think people get a bit too "loyal" to their army, that sometimes it clouds judgment, lol.
   
Made in us
Devastating Dark Reaper





3rd ed Eldar Codex, pg 39- Underneath Eldrad's entry in a fluff piece

"He knows your affairs better than you do yourself. He warned that weakling seer you call Emperor of the treachery of Horus...."

Also explains that Eldrad "guided" Ghazghkull to Armageddon to save ten thousand Eldar lives.

Fair trade IMO.

It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets.
Voltaire 
   
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[MOD]
Defensor Mundi






Richmond, VA

The easiest way to trick someone is letting them see some of the truth.
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




 Just Dave wrote:

I personally can't recall any times when Chaos has manipulated the Eldar?

There was one story where there was a Craftworld that was stuck somewhere nasty (can't remember if it was actually in the Warp, but it was implied that it was pretty much doomed), and some Eldar person left (somehow) and came back with a Keeper of Secrets disguised as an Eldar (inexplicably this extra person was let in). I think it was supposed to show how the love this Eldar felt for the Keeper of Secrets (or rather, who he or she thought it was) doomed the Craftworld. It was a bit of a silly story. However, I see no reason why Chaos could not manipulate Eldar.

Also in regards to the Eldrad and Fulgrim meeting, Eldrad wasn't the most diplomatic he could have been. Also was the one who initiated hostilities once he realised Fulgrim was tainted and had the Laer sword (although let's face it, he was not beyond saving). Sure, Eldrad was right. He also played his cards very badly and screwed up. As for the comments about the Emperors precognition, His foresight was being blocked by the Chaos Gods.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/24 21:47:30


 
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch






SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
 Just Dave wrote:

I personally can't recall any times when Chaos has manipulated the Eldar?

There was one story where there was a Craftworld that was stuck somewhere nasty (can't remember if it was actually in the Warp, but it was implied that it was pretty much doomed), and some Eldar person left (somehow) and came back with a Keeper of Secrets disguised as an Eldar (inexplicably this extra person was let in). I think it was supposed to show how the love this Eldar felt for the Keeper of Secrets (or rather, who he or she thought it was) doomed the Craftworld. It was a bit of a silly story. However, I see no reason why Chaos could not manipulate Eldar.

Also in regards to the Eldrad and Fulgrim meeting, Eldrad wasn't the most diplomatic he could have been. Also was the one who initiated hostilities once he realised Fulgrim was tainted and had the Laer sword (although let's face it, he was not beyond saving). Sure, Eldrad was right. He also played his cards very badly and screwed up. As for the comments about the Emperors precognition, His foresight was being blocked by the Chaos Gods.


I think the KoS you're thinking of was called Heartslayer - 4th ed deamon codex.
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Heartslayer

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/24 23:00:56


 Blacksails wrote:

Its because ordinance is still a word.
However, firing ordinance at someone isn't nearly as threatening as firing ordnance at someone.
Ordinance is a local law, or bill, or other form of legislation.
Ordnance is high caliber explosives.
No 'I' in ordnance.
Don't drown the enemy in legislation, drown them in explosives.
 
   
Made in us
Deadly Dire Avenger





Maybe Eldrad and the emperor where best bros until Eldrad told him his son was gonna try and kill him? anyways a bit off topic but did Eldrad consider at the time the emperor any better than a normal human, as well as what where Eldar thoughts about the Primarchs and Space marines in comparison to normal humans respect wise as well? disregarding the falling to chaos part.
   
Made in br
Horrific Howling Banshee





 Void__Dragon wrote:
Sure are a lot of Imperial players here.

"Most of the time, Eldar visions are false" lol, what a crock of gak.

Eldrad was right, Horus laid the Emperor low, come at me bro.

Glad someone else sees it
   
Made in us
Abhorrent Grotesque Aberration





 Krellnus wrote:

"Ask not the Eldar a question, for they will give you three answers, all of which are true and terrifying to know."
-Inquisitor Czevak


I believe that Czevak was a little too enamored of his Eldar friends. What he should have said is:

"Ask not the Eldar a question, for they will give you three answers, all of which are true, terrifying to know, unrelated to your question and [designed to bind you to their will."

There. That's more accurate.

------------------
"Why me?" Gideon begged, falling to his knees.
"Why not?" - Asdrubael Vect 
   
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Executing Exarch






Had a another thought about the eldar meeting with fulgrim. The only reason they met up at all was Fulgrim was tainted - Eldrad wanted to know why the emperors children hadn't destroyed the eldar planets - they'd left them alone because they were beautiful.

It was always a futile gesture - Chaos was preventing communication between the eldar and the imperium.

It didn't matter what the eldar did at that point - the warning would never be heard by the emperor.
The warning was accurate and given in plenty of time.
Then just for good measure, Fulgrim gets to kill an Avatar...by strangling it. We can just add that to the list of avatars that have fallen in strange circumstances (mainly, when authors want to emphasise how hard the character they are writing about 'now' is...)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/25 08:44:08


 Blacksails wrote:

Its because ordinance is still a word.
However, firing ordinance at someone isn't nearly as threatening as firing ordnance at someone.
Ordinance is a local law, or bill, or other form of legislation.
Ordnance is high caliber explosives.
No 'I' in ordnance.
Don't drown the enemy in legislation, drown them in explosives.
 
   
Made in pl
Leaping Khawarij





Warsaw, Poland

When I was reading it I interpreted it as Armageddon, yes, and the giant was Ghazkul Thrakka.

Infinity Warcar for Warsaw, Poland
 
   
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Thunderhawk Pilot Dropping From Orbit





Maybe they write it that way so people could see what they wanted to see and we could have long debates about our points of view.

I still say it's not armageddon but Davin/Istavan or Terra.

Davin because that's where Horus fell to chaos.

Istavan because that's where the heresy really got moving.

Terra because that's where chaos got it's never ending wars that have lasted for over 10,000 years.

The big lad fighting zombies in sea green armour is Horus, Alkasyn. Read page 220, 3 lines from the bottom in Fulgrim to start reading the Eldar scums vision.

Come into my web, said the spider to the fly.
Come rest your wings, and let us talk eye to eye.
For I am a spider, and you are the fly. Now that you are here, let us sit, and say hi.
But I have have no morsel to share, nor anything to eat. But wait, what is that stickiness upon your feet.
Ah now I have you, now I can eat. Now I can enjoy you, or store you as meat.
For I am the spider, and you are the fly. How else could it have gone, between one such as you, and one such as I.
 
   
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Leaping Khawarij





Warsaw, Poland

 Themanwiththeplan wrote:
Maybe they write it that way so people could see what they wanted to see and we could have long debates about our points of view.

I still say it's not armageddon but Davin/Istavan or Terra.

Davin because that's where Horus fell to chaos.

Istavan because that's where the heresy really got moving.

Terra because that's where chaos got it's never ending wars that have lasted for over 10,000 years.

The big lad fighting zombies in sea green armour is Horus, Alkasyn. Read page 220, 3 lines from the bottom in Fulgrim to start reading the Eldar scums vision.


How is Davin/ SItvan a planet named after the end of the World? Sadly, I can't re-read the passage as I gave the book away.

Infinity Warcar for Warsaw, Poland
 
   
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Snord






GhostKnight31 wrote:Bloody Xenos scum why should we listen to their so called predictions of doom when they couldn't even see their own downfall

If Eldrad was so good he should of just killed Fulgrim before Fulgrim could stop him instead of having a nice chat about the weather and doom of the human race

Seems reasonable that it is Davin especially with Horus


Eldrad tried, but it seems black library believes that a slightly demon-helped primarch and a handful of marines can hold against an entire eldar warhost and the avatar. I recall get rather angry at that part for its stupidity.

Durza wrote:
PredaKhaine wrote:
Chaos is quite good at hiding from everyone when it wants to. The corrupted sword of the laer didn't feature in anyone's visions.


That's actually an interesting point. Maybe the Eldar just didn't see the sword at all because Slaanesh knows how to nullify their powers?


The sword obscured eldrad's vision, all he knew was that fulgrim was important in the shceme of things. He didn't notice the taint until fulgrim actually revealed the sword.

Bottom line, Eldar were right as usual ultimately, but the Imperium are too stupid/xenophobic to listen even when the eldar are proved right countless times. And the eldar too arrogant to take the patience to explain their plan, because imperials shoot first.


Von Chogg

LunaHound wrote:Eldrad was responsible for 911 *disclaimer, because Eldrad is known to be a dick, making dick moves that takes eons to fruit.

tremere47 wrote:
fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
 
   
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Alkasyn - Quote from the passage in question - Already Eldrad had seen the death of their race, the blood soaked fields of the world named FOR the end of days, and the final victory of the dark saviour.

He doen't say named after the end of days (armageddon) but for, meaning the planet has already been chosen where the end of days will happen. Well that's what I'm resting my case on.

Come into my web, said the spider to the fly.
Come rest your wings, and let us talk eye to eye.
For I am a spider, and you are the fly. Now that you are here, let us sit, and say hi.
But I have have no morsel to share, nor anything to eat. But wait, what is that stickiness upon your feet.
Ah now I have you, now I can eat. Now I can enjoy you, or store you as meat.
For I am the spider, and you are the fly. How else could it have gone, between one such as you, and one such as I.
 
   
Made in gb
Screaming Banshee




UK

The Eldar Seers see possible futures - all of them - they then try to work out which one is most likely and if they can mess with it to make it beftter for their Craftworld.

Sometimes they get it wrong - sometimes they don't.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/26 16:59:26


"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in gb
Thunderhawk Pilot Dropping From Orbit





But the vision he saw was the future except he forgot to clean his glasses and thought he saw Fulgrim instead of Horus.

Come into my web, said the spider to the fly.
Come rest your wings, and let us talk eye to eye.
For I am a spider, and you are the fly. Now that you are here, let us sit, and say hi.
But I have have no morsel to share, nor anything to eat. But wait, what is that stickiness upon your feet.
Ah now I have you, now I can eat. Now I can enjoy you, or store you as meat.
For I am the spider, and you are the fly. How else could it have gone, between one such as you, and one such as I.
 
   
Made in us
Tzeentch Doomlord Pilot




Noctis Labyrinthus

PredaKhaine wrote:
Then just for good measure, Fulgrim gets to kill an Avatar...by strangling it. We can just add that to the list of avatars that have fallen in strange circumstances (mainly, when authors want to emphasise how hard the character they are writing about 'now' is...)


Fulgrim crushed its neck, shattering it. He didn't suffocate it, as upset Eldar fans are so quick to claim.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Von Chogg wrote:
Eldrad tried, but it seems black library believes that a slightly demon-helped primarch and a handful of marines can hold against an entire eldar warhost and the avatar. I recall get rather angry at that part for its stupidity.


Based on the established prowess of Primarchs, you should count yourself lucky that the battle with the Avatar was even a struggle for Fulgrim.

Those handful of Marines were some of the best in the chapter. It is entirely plausible that they won.

Eldar fans are so funny.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/26 17:24:37


 
   
Made in us
Deadly Dire Avenger





 Void__Dragon wrote:
PredaKhaine wrote:
Then just for good measure, Fulgrim gets to kill an Avatar...by strangling it. We can just add that to the list of avatars that have fallen in strange circumstances (mainly, when authors want to emphasise how hard the character they are writing about 'now' is...)


Fulgrim crushed its neck, shattering it. He didn't suffocate it, as upset Eldar fans are so quick to claim.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Von Chogg wrote:
Eldrad tried, but it seems black library believes that a slightly demon-helped primarch and a handful of marines can hold against an entire eldar warhost and the avatar. I recall get rather angry at that part for its stupidity.


Based on the established prowess of Primarchs, you should count yourself lucky that the battle with the Avatar was even a struggle for Fulgrim.

Those handful of Marines were some of the best in the chapter. It is entirely plausible that they won.

Eldar fans are so funny.


Yeah but just like according the the prowess of the Primarchs. Avatars are supposed to be suitably badass in their own way, they are shards of a god after all. And yeah theyre good marines, doesnt mean they can fight off an entire War host by themselves.
   
Made in us
Focused Dark Angels Land Raider Pilot




Green Bay

 Prism962 wrote:
...yeah theyre good marines, doesnt mean they can fight off an entire War host by themselves.

You do know that they're just elves, right? Granted, they are elves in space, but they're still the classic, whiny, emo elves we all know from the early days of fantasy/sci-fi, always on the downward spiral of their civilization.

rigeld2 wrote:
Now go ahead and take that out of context to make me look like a fool.
 
   
Made in us
Deadly Dire Avenger





 nolzur wrote:
 Prism962 wrote:
...yeah theyre good marines, doesnt mean they can fight off an entire War host by themselves.

You do know that they're just elves, right? Granted, they are elves in space, but they're still the classic, whiny, emo elves we all know from the early days of fantasy/sci-fi, always on the downward spiral of their civilization.


Im not saying that the Eldar are super powerful themselves. Im saying that simply numbers wise they are outmatched. They're not as good as a Space Marine. But in that given situation there are more of them, and they are technologically advanced. They are also acknowledged as deadly by the marines here,
""Dont underestimate them" warned Solomon. "They are deadly warriors and their weapons are lethal."" (Page 272, Fulgrim, Graham McNeill)

Also see page 275 for the description of some of the Eldar that are present. There are 2 tanks of an unidentified kind there as well as what seems to be Howling Banshees and Dark Reapers. Both have weapons and the speed and ability to kill a marine. There is also a wraith lord there. And on page 274 there are descriptions from the narrator of a previous conflict with the Eldar where he had seen one of these machines "that Solomon had dreaded ever since the battle on Tza-Chao. It carried a sword as long as an Astartes warrior was tall, its graceful limbs belied the fearsome power and strength within it." (page 275, Fulgrim, Graham McNeill)

"They struggled against the shrieking warriors in bone armour, their swords fencing in a deadly ballet with these supremely skilled warriors." (Page 296, Fuglrim)

"Of the Phoenix Guard there were no survivors, their skill and strength no match for the power of the wraithlord" (Page 299, Fulgrim)

And that was just one wraithlord and some howling banshees. When the force of the Eldar comes from the craftworld its in much much greater numbers with Dire Avengers, Striking Scorpians, more Howling Banshees, and an Avatar. None of these are idle speculation you can find a description of each of those in the description of the battle. And its not as if theyres a large amount of Marines fighting back. All the Phoenix guard had died leaving pretty much only the Captains to fight. So please explain to me how they survived without losing a single man. And saying its a book or a BL novel doesnt count. That I have accepted.
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch






 Void__Dragon wrote:


Fulgrim crushed its neck, shattering it. He didn't suffocate it, as upset Eldar fans are so quick to claim.


Ok, points for technical accuracy - also he wouldn't have been able to take the avatar down that fast had the avatar not seen that the main threat was the sword and reacted accordingly.

I'm just a little bored of BL/GW using the avatar and the eldar as tools to make other characters seem harder by comparison.
Need someone to look hard quickly? kill an avatar/beat the eldar
Marneus Calgar, Fulgrim, Heartslayer, Iyanden being invaded by tyranids, I'm told the necrons have some fluff in their codex where they slap the eldar about...
I'm sure there are more if people would like to name them.
I'd just like them to use a different faction for a change.

Even though I know no-one has plot armour thicker than a space marine

 Blacksails wrote:

Its because ordinance is still a word.
However, firing ordinance at someone isn't nearly as threatening as firing ordnance at someone.
Ordinance is a local law, or bill, or other form of legislation.
Ordnance is high caliber explosives.
No 'I' in ordnance.
Don't drown the enemy in legislation, drown them in explosives.
 
   
Made in us
Tzeentch Doomlord Pilot




Noctis Labyrinthus

An Avatar of Khaine does not appear in the Necron codex.

Really, the Avatar put Fulgrim in the medical wing after their fight. This is one of the most dignified portrayals an Avatar has had.
   
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Dakka Veteran




PredaKhaine wrote:
kill an avatar/beat the eldar
Marneus Calgar, Fulgrim, Heartslayer, Iyanden being invaded by tyranids, I'm told the necrons have some fluff in their codex where they slap the eldar about...
I'm sure there are more if people would like to name them.
I'd just like them to use a different faction for a change.

The Necrons beat the Eldar in their own Codex, sure. They're ancient enemies, so it makes sense. The Necrons also "slap" Space Marines, Tau, Tyranids, Imperial Guard and probably a few others about. The Tyranids have torn more out of the Imperium than anyone (second greatest forgeworld in the Imperium was destroyed by them, for instance), Heartslayer possessed an Avatar that wasn't awake and was on a doomed Craftworld (which makes it interesting because it could still move to an extent). Your only valid points would be Fulgrim and Calgar, and Fulgrim is a Primarch, beings which are portrayed as being incredibly powerful individuals and capable of taking nearly anything one-on-one (really, I was surprised Fulgrim struggled so much against the Wraithlord). Which leaves Calgar as your sole justifiable complaint.

Pretty much the only people who don't suffer significant numbers of defeats seem to be the Dark Eldar, actually.
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch






Ok, let me phrase this differently. I've obviously focused too much on defeats.

When have the Eldar won?

Apart from Maugan-Ra, who has more 'win' than mr win, at international win week, in the middle of the world 'how exactly did I beat an entire hive fleet/tendril on my own' festival. On the craftworld of Altansar, which he single handedly dragged out of the warp.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/26 21:34:03


 Blacksails wrote:

Its because ordinance is still a word.
However, firing ordinance at someone isn't nearly as threatening as firing ordnance at someone.
Ordinance is a local law, or bill, or other form of legislation.
Ordnance is high caliber explosives.
No 'I' in ordnance.
Don't drown the enemy in legislation, drown them in explosives.
 
   
Made in us
Tzeentch Doomlord Pilot




Noctis Labyrinthus

Maugan Ra was jumping into the Warp and kicking ass before Draigo made it cool.

Eldrad was able to successfully manipulate the Orks and humans into warring with eachother on Armageddon, sparing Eldar lives, off the top of my head.

They also aided in destroying Kraken. At signifigant cost? Sure. Ultramar did the same with a smaller Hive Fleet.
   
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Zealous Witch Finder




Hunting the Matriarchy

Anyone can see that the Eldar get fisted by the BL and GW on a daily basis; under-represented, Worf'd- their only points of reprieve being Prince Yriel and Maugan Ra.

But all the Xenos sans the Necrons eat gak, so I don't see what the problem is.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/01/26 22:26:01


"We do no demographic research, we have no focus groups, we do not ask the market what it wants. These things are otiose in a niche'. - Games Workshop 2014 Financial Report
W/D/L
4-0-1
2-0-1
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1-0-0 
   
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Wait, the Necrons beat the Eldar? I thought it was the other way around.

In any case, I wasn't terribly upset at Fulgrim defeating an Avatar; as said, he was a Primarch, one of the few beings who would be a match for one. (The Emperor's Children still shouldn't have won the engagement though.)
Having said that, I very much disagree that eldar are less powerful than marines. I'd say it's very hard to make a general comparison; marines are generalists. whereas eldar are specialists (and therefore lack in other areas. So while an eldar should beat a marine in the eldar's area of expertise, the marine would feasibly beat the eldar at almost everything else, excepting speed (and technology).

Otherwise I agree with the general sentiment that in the lore, Eldar tend to be used as the yarstick for how tough is. If used sparingly, it can be an effective tool to demonstrate someone's badassery. Except that it happens every. single. time. They're much like the dwarves in Fantasy, in that respect.

Heartslayer possessing an Avatar, though is just stupid.
   
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Executing Exarch






 Void__Dragon wrote:
Maugan Ra was jumping into the Warp and kicking ass before Draigo made it cool.


As soon I as I work out how, that's being sigged
Edit:and done.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/26 23:08:48


 Blacksails wrote:

Its because ordinance is still a word.
However, firing ordinance at someone isn't nearly as threatening as firing ordnance at someone.
Ordinance is a local law, or bill, or other form of legislation.
Ordnance is high caliber explosives.
No 'I' in ordnance.
Don't drown the enemy in legislation, drown them in explosives.
 
   
Made in us
Tzeentch Doomlord Pilot




Noctis Labyrinthus

I'm such a cool guy.
   
 
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