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Made in us
Calculating Commissar




pontiac, michigan; usa

I actually thought stormvermin on rat ogres would've been cool considering the warlord on rat ogre bonebreaker. Considering all the monstrous cavalry we're seeing it isn't extremely unlikely to see that sort of thing. The armor would probably be a 4+ armor save tops though. Something tells me though that we'd see a lot of these though. I'd imagine it'd be like those tomb kings necropolis knights. I'd imagine it wouldn't be too powerful but then people would probably take less rat ogres (not that they take them now). I can imagine they'd suffer from frenzy and maybe stupidity though instead of needing packmasters/master moulders.

So it'd basically be a more skaven version of this riding a model like an ogre with frenzy. I figure halberds are still pretty likely unless there's some crazy weapon allowed. Somehow i'd doubt spears would be an option. Would be cool to see some other weapon though for stormvermin that are mounted like armor-piercing or something. I'd imagine the rat ogre wouldn't be as good as the demigryph but more like a rat ogre and the stormvermin itself would be less armored.





I'm just throwing out ideas here. I already mentioned clan eshin doom rocketeers in units of say 6 models tops with skirmishers and each has small blast strength 5 but a very random shooting like the doom rocket. It would also be move or fire. It sounds OP and stupid but you have to understand this is the idea of doom rockets in small blast form and basically scattering constantly. It still won't be like d3 wounds with flaming like warpfire throwers and it will be much more random. Poisoned wind mortars will still avoid armor, jezzails have long range and hit hard, warpfire throwers do multiple wounds with short range and flaming attacks at decent strength, ratling guns have medium range with multiple shots and doom flayers are melee. The way i figure is that if nothing else the doom rockets should be a weapons team and quite possibly a gutter runner weapon team after said gutter runners use scouts to get close to an enemy ;P. I'd figure no stand and shoot obviously.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2013/05/02 03:00:29


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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Warpsolution wrote:

And how does a Greater Daemon have "only slightly" more options than a Vermin Lord?

Because they have very few choices, maybe? A GD can choose 1 weapon up to 50 points or one of the 3 75pt weird items. Anything else is random. So it's an option in the sense you get to roll for it and hope it doesn't suck.

In pure number terms, standard characters with 100pt limits have about 80 or so items to choose from in some combination that doesn't break the rules. GDs have about 17 of which they can only choose 1. The VL's weapon being nearly exactly the same as one of those choices and the same as one of the random gifts (2 wounds per unsaved).

Characters with 25pt magic limits have more direct choices than a GD.

   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





@DukeRustfield: I know you're against any of these changes to the Vermin Lord.
I still disagree, because I have the desire for every unit and character in every book to be a viable choice. I know this is a mostly futile endeavor, but I'm still going to try.
Thank you for your opinion.

Jetpack Skaven would be cool. I also like the flying Censer-bat/rats in a lot of the art.
I can get behind some models with a higher movement. But actual cavalry just seems to go against the grain of what Skaven have thusly been.

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Your passive aggressive response still tries to maintain they are an invalid choice while not offering compelling reasons why. They ARE a greater daemon of absolutely no difference whatsoever against a huge swath of enemies, both of low power and high power. I.e., 90-100% identical in terms of combat.

If GD are not a valid choice then VL are not a valid choice. But otherwise, they most certainly are.

   
Made in gb
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan





Fareham

How do you go against the grain of skaven?
They have pretty much every aspect in their army from stealthy killers to tech mages.
I really dont see cav being out of place since its a moulder type unit.

The vermin on rat ogres would also fit in pretty well, or even packmasters on rat ogres.
Would give them a pretty decent unit.



Also, a note on the VL - His save is what lets him down, that and not being able to join units.
He will get torn apart far too quickly as he is, which is why its rare to see him used.

   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





Cavalry is the only thing that Skaven don't have.
I don't see why it's a concern, anyway. As you said, Skaven have a huge variety of stuff, and cavalry isn't necessary; all we need is something with a higher Movement.

Wolf Rats would be cool with me. Not with riders, just on their own. "Go For the Throat" and "Tide of Death" are a bit silly, though.

 
   
Made in us
Calculating Commissar




pontiac, michigan; usa

Warpsolution wrote:
Cavalry is the only thing that Skaven don't have.
I don't see why it's a concern, anyway. As you said, Skaven have a huge variety of stuff, and cavalry isn't necessary; all we need is something with a higher Movement.

Wolf Rats would be cool with me. Not with riders, just on their own. "Go For the Throat" and "Tide of Death" are a bit silly, though.


Actually there are a few things skaven don't have. We don't have any real armored units, we don't have anything that elite for the most part, we don't have much in the way of good movement aside from gutter runners with warp grinders, we don't have flyers, we don't have ethereal or killing blow on anything and we don't have cavalry of any kind.

I understand what you mean and i still kind of want to see rat ogre rider stormvermin with perhaps a double bladed halberd (a blade on each end of the weapon). Either that or at least give stormvermin a tail weapon attack for more of their guys. Considering stormvermin already have tail weapons on many of the models with blades on everything should allow this or perhaps a spikey armor upgrade that hurts enemies every time you make an armor save ;P. Considering how many times some skaven models prod me in the hand with a spikey end you'd think it might have something. It'd sound a little dumb but considering the warpstone armor upgrade for heroes it's not as dumb as you might think.

However it'd be preferable if maybe next time queek's special stormvermin upgrade allowed for gromril armor considering his skaven clan has scavenged so much of it from 'the city of pillars'. I love that place so much and that we took it. Never let anybody take it from skaven in the lore fluff writers otherwise i will be very angry.

@DukeRustfield (aka: Da Duke): I always thought the vermin lord was supposed to be more of a daemon prince rather than a greater daemon and that its profile reflected this. I don't know much on this subject but an opponent had a 1+ armor save with a 5+ ward save with his warriors of chaos daemon prince with always strikes first and lots of other goodies as well as breath attacks and the fly rule if i remember. In comparison a vermin lord is nothing esp. since the vermin lord doesn't have much in the way of augment spells that really help him or many hex spells (other than wither) which would hurt the opponent once he does hit combat.

Honestly i don't care much for changes in rules or stats but perhaps a couple new spells in the new book or some better augment/hex spells. If nothing else boosting wither with a more potent version like all the 8th edition magic would be ideal (-2 or some such to toughness would be enough even though it might not matter when he's strength 6 and could torch a unit anyway).

Allowing the vermin lord to be a general and have ASF would be nice. Warpfire breath would be a nice touch as a skaven version of flaming breath attacks. According to the picture in the skaven army book it would make sense too with flames or smoke leaving his mouth.

I don't fully understand the objection to a more potent vermin lord with more spells or something. I just figure each upgrade would cost points and it can amount to a lot. Vampires get vampiric powers and slann can have disciplines so why can't one vermin lord have one or two special magic spells, abilities or items at his disposal?

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/05/03 05:45:45


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Longtime Dakkanaut





DP are supposed to be < GD. Though WoC DP are silly stupid face.

If you got the DoC book, and basically saw that every lord available to DoC is a VL with the same sucky stats you're complaining about, with no other options of Grey Seers or Warlords with their infinite options, you'd see how someone might be, "hey, you guys already have (nearly) what I have, and a bunch more."

It would be like if DoC was arguing to get soul slaves, and screaming hell bell, and snot ogres, and blah blah basically your whole book in addition to what they already got.

I tend to think it's a mistake when they do that. I don't think the WoC DP should be better than the DoC one. I don't think the WoC ogres should be better than the OK Ironguts (more options) and I don't think the WoC Trolls should be better than the O&G Trolls...notice a trend. And people still say WoC is the zomg worst book eva.

If they're going to break their backs making the books unique, then keep them unique. No one should out-GD DoC. Period. It's not even a great unit type to claim as being the best. Monster Lords with a 5+ ward max and a minimum of 375 pts with no spells or items.

   
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Killer Klaivex




Oceanside, CA

DukeRustfield wrote:

If they're going to break their backs making the books unique, then keep them unique. No one should out-GD DoC. Period. It's not even a great unit type to claim as being the best. Monster Lords with a 5+ ward max and a minimum of 375 pts with no spells or items.

Well, it's 375 with being a level 1 wizard, or flight, heavy armor, extra hand weapon and MR2.
All of them, in fact, have basic stuff that makes them much more than just a 375 point monster/character.

I agree, nobody should out GD DoC. Which is why I think the Vermin Lord should cap at where he is now, but have options for being cheaper with less stuff.
If you wanted a Monster character with no gear, spells or magic levels, just a 5+ ward, DoC get that. It's 250 points.

From the games I've seen so far, daemon gifts are better than items, only because you generate them after lists have been made. You know what you're up against, and then can tailor your gear.
It's the difference in choosing a lore when you write a list, and choose spells (ie. not rolling) when you deploy.

-Matt

 thedarkavenger wrote:

So. I got a game with this list in. First game in at least 3-4 months.
 
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





@flamingkillamajig: we have units with armour. Stormvermin, Doomflayers, and the Doom Wheel are all capable of a 4+ or better.
Properly equipped Gutter Runners, along withPlague Censer Bearers and Jezzail Teams are more than 15pts/model. That's pretty "elite".
The category "units with good/high Movement" contains Flyers. And yeah, we don't have any, that's true.
Very few armies have Ethereal troops, and Killing Blow isn't a category of troops, it's just a special rule that allows a model to be anti-armour and/or character. And we've got tons of anti-armour stuff.

I also don't think the Vermin Lord should be better than any of the other Greater Daemons, or even their equals. But I think the difference between them right now is too big, and the difference in how they work just confusing.

 
   
Made in us
Calculating Commissar




pontiac, michigan; usa

Warpsolution wrote:
@flamingkillamajig: we have units with armour. Stormvermin, Doomflayers, and the Doom Wheel are all capable of a 4+ or better.
Properly equipped Gutter Runners, along withPlague Censer Bearers and Jezzail Teams are more than 15pts/model. That's pretty "elite".
The category "units with good/high Movement" contains Flyers. And yeah, we don't have any, that's true.
Very few armies have Ethereal troops, and Killing Blow isn't a category of troops, it's just a special rule that allows a model to be anti-armour and/or character. And we've got tons of anti-armour stuff.

I also don't think the Vermin Lord should be better than any of the other Greater Daemons, or even their equals. But I think the difference between them right now is too big, and the difference in how they work just confusing.


No skaven don't have armor for most of their units (stormvermin can only have a +4 armor save if they have shields and are hit by missile attacks, the doomwheel has a +4 armor save and the doom flayer has one wound with a +3 save in the front arc only) and i mostly don't expect them to have much but rat ogres w/ stormvermin riders might be fun (it'd still only be a +4 armor save in close combat considering they have halberds unless we can have barding however unlikely that'd be). It'd still get kicked in the teeth by more powerful things. Considering warlords can have rat ogre bonebreaker mounts i think weaker and slower monstrous cavalry might work or at least a goblin wolf/spider rider type unit for skaven except with like wolf rats or plague rats. Rat ogres with spiked fist gauntlet weapons and some nasty armor might also be cool but i doubt it'd happen. If you'd rather go the toughness or numbers route with skaven instead of armor that would be fine too.

The Vermin lord should have its own magic but probably not better than any sort of daemon prince. 2-3 vermin lord only spells that exceed the 13 spells we have (though the 13th will still be the best) would be good. I figure if they are more cunning and evil than any other skaven and teach grey seers magic then they should be better at either casting magic (perhaps a possible +1 or 2 on casting rolls on some of them) and a couple of their own spells like a special augment or hex spell to boost themselves or some ability that makes them more skaven-like speed except more of it. How about vermin lords can get a spell that allows them to sacrifice their own side's skaven to recover wounds or get more magic dice (still might panic your own skaven)? Perhaps a magic spell that gives the vermin lord ASF, more attacks and boosted movement speed? What about a ruin/plague spell that melts flesh off bone indiana jones and the lost crypt style with the movie's baddies (i suppose that might be too much like plague or the 13th spell though with characteristic tests or dying but it'd be super cool)?

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/05/19 02:53:07


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Evasive Eshin Assassin





You said we don't have any "real" armoured units. My point was this:

what's a "real" armoured unit? 3+? 2+? Armour is not a requirement for anything.
If a unit is S7, you don't really need Killing Blow. If they're M9, they can do the same thing that a Flying unit can do, more or less.
And if a unit is T5, or has Regeneration, or -1 to Hit, it accomplishes the same thing as having armour.

Here's my general statement about this sort of thing: no army should have something of everything. That's what makes one army stand out from others, what combination of stuff it offers that others don't.
If every unit in the Skaven book was equally viable, we wouldn't need a thing.
Some things would be cool to have, but there's got to be a cut-off somewhere, or every book'll have 50+ options, each with a dozen possible upgrades.

If you want to make Rat Ogre-riding Stormvermin, go ahead. It just doesn't interest me. I started this thread in an attempt to (1) tone down a unit or two/make the crap ones worth taking and (2) give Skryre and Moulder s'more options, because they don't have very much right now (especially Moulder).

The Skaven already have access to more spells in the Grey Seer, who gets to choose from two Lores at the same time. Giving the Vermin Lord even more is not necessary. A re-write of the Lores might be cool, though. To clarify and fix some stuff. And get rid of Vermintide. And maybe Pestilent Breath.

Vermin Lords are sinister, treacherous cunning incarnate. Don't you think a Daemon Prince of Tzeentch is such-and-such incarnate? And Slaanesh, and Nurgle?
No bonuses to casting. No Vermin Lord-specific spells. Keep. It. Simple.

Here's a quick stab at magic:

Ruin:
-The only one I hear people complain about a lot is Howling Warpgale. But I think it's a great utility spell. It can offer a table-wide benefit against a small selection of units, and it's easy to cast.
-Maybe let Warp Lightning get boosted to 2d6 hits on a 10+, and have Crack's Call go 8d6" on a 22+ or whatever.
-Deathfrenzy: basic version as-is, boosted version +3 ASF on a 16+?

Plague:
-Pestilent Breath does 2d6 hits in CC. Or change the spell so the enemy unit is at -1 to Hit, and models in base contact take S3 hits no armour, or something.
- boosted Bless with Filth and Wither: longer range on a 12+.
- Vermintide: change it to an augment; or something. +1T or a 5+ Scaly Skin or something.
- Cloud of Corruption: double radius on a 15+, or maybe it's a remains in play Hex-ish type of thing.

 
   
Made in us
Calculating Commissar




pontiac, michigan; usa

Sorry i was just trying to imagine some new toys and make the vermin lord viable. Monstrous cavalry is nothing new and for the most part the skaven force would still move slow. Maybe i'm just trying to go for the rule of cool and throw out ideas that'd sound cool rather than balanced.

I actually do think the vermin lord could use some of his own spells. I don't believe it should be a great combat beast (though probably one of the fastest) but it should probably have a decent bit of magic. I'm not asking for loremaster but perhaps casting with a 5 instead of a 4 (but being a level 4 wizard) or having a couple of its own spells would be nice. I just want people to take the vermin lord. Making it a better spellcaster that can give itself buffs or hex its enemies would help a ton. A vermin lord that doesn't get the buffs or hexes off will still get owned. Also a slann would probably own a vermin lord and a vermin lord costs much more. I was just thinking somewhere between a daemon prince (without armor) though weaker in combat but as a better wizard with spells that can make it better in combat or overall (though it'd cost a bit). Either that or a points amount that'd be added for each ability and some can't be taken if others are. I honestly don't see the problem with giving this to the vermin lord. It's already a 500 pts model meaning that as is that's the max amount of lords points you can spend in a 200 pts game and he isn't even allowed to be a general. It's a huge sink in points to throw out there. Perhaps the vermin lord could be the only one with access to certain boosted spells? I dunno i'm just figuring things out to make the vermin lord viable so that he is taken for once. As it is not being good enough means we never see him and though it's realistic he's rare he should be good and viable in large games.

If we did a super death frenzy i figure that skaven would have 2d6 models lost per turn at least. It'd be good but it'd be insane considering an extra 3 attacks per turn. I also wouldn't mind a normal frenzy version of death frenzy for the weakest version.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/19 20:40:40


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Warpsolution wrote:
Here's my general statement about this sort of thing: no army should have something of everything. That's what makes one army stand out from others, what combination of stuff it offers that others don't.

They actually do this a lot. Especially in the big armies in 8th. Like HE, WoC, Empire, O&G.

What you see is they HAVE stuff, but it might not be quite as good as the armies who specialize in it. That way the army can still take diverse units to use as counters and help round them out without it being "oh, he's WoC, he will have nothing whatsoever that is ranged."

I do get a little annoyed when they give generalists as good stuff as specialists. WoC ogres are too cheap. HE everything is too awesome.

   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





@Flamingkillamajig: how can you think that the Vermin Lord is a better Wizard than other Daemonic entities? I understand that they're supposed to be better than Grey Seers, but this game says that all wizardly might can be categorized into 4 groups, so we have to assume some of the reality got lost in the numbers.
If it helps, the Vermin Lords are way better in the Realm of Chaos. Being summoned to this world and forced to take on a form of the flesh greatly limits their abilities.

The best idea for the Vermin Lord thus far has been: make him cheaper, starting out as a lvl1 or 2 Wizard, and giving him those options as upgrades. Maybe make the Glaive an upgrade. And let him be the General.
Boom, done. We don't need any other weird stuff.

Instead of making spells just for him, I think re-working the Skaven Lores would work better.

@DukeRustfield: When I said "no army should have something of everything", the "everything" included: a unit with ASF, a unit with Poison, a unit with Killing Blow, a Flying character, etc.

But yes. Agreed.

 
   
 
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